Politics The Florida GOP

[andalusian]

Understood. I'll elaborate: capitalism started by promising prosperity to the middle class through labor. This is the seduction, the false promise of upward mobility. It's a seduction because the power dynamic between owner class and labor class is not equal, severely favoring the owner class making the false promises. But capitalism doesn't do that anymore. Now it takes and exploits without any thought to the well-being of the worker, indeed in many cases doing harm without consent. I didn't intend to imply one is the natural outcome of the other. But this started out with a false promise and has led to this place we're in now where naked exploitation is the norm.

I understand if the terms are still too loaded; they were intense on purpose, to get people to realize that this exploitation we're experiencing is coercive and non-consentual. I'll edit them if you prefer.

I think you mis-identify the problem as capitalism where the correct answer is well regulated capitalism. The issue is not capitalism, the issue is regulation.

The idea of capitalism - that if you put in the work you will rip the rewards is the most reasonable and fair idea for society, any other idea basically, by definition, means that some are getting more than what they deserve. It's the basic definition.

The problem is that like any system, it needs to be regulated because, like every other system, if you do not regulate it, it becomes an anarchy of sorts and the more powerful through greed exploits it to take more and more.

For capitalism to work as well as it should - for the benefit of society, those that get the most and earn the most should contribute the most for the society that provided them that system that made them successful, but through a bunch of regulations and loopholes (bad regulation, in other words) - it is not what happens. Be it through deductions, trusts, companies and all these other wonderful tax codes - the middle-class is being squeezed out. It's that simple, unfortunately.

That's basically, imho, the same problem with guns in America. There is no issue with the 2nd amendment and the right to own guns. The issue is that the political system has manipulated it to ignore the "regulated" portion - and just like capitalism run amok, gun ownership run amok is a problem. Not a surprise that both of these are favored by the "tea party" of the world - the guys that call for freedom without regulation and manage to convince people that it's a good idea. The reality is that regulation is a requirement for society. When you run away from it, it becomes anarchy which surprisingly, brings a "ruling class" into power which brings dictatorship (See the Florida GOP and it's proposed first amendment restrictions) and thus, ironically, restricts freedoms.

The problem is that the world is too complicated for simple solutions. You need regulation but you can't have too much of it. Unfortunately, the GOP since the Tea Party days has basically run on the platform of no regulation with the expected outcome...

 

[Everything Beagle]

The profit motive precludes fairness; capitalism, regulated or not, is inherently unfair to laborers. The problem is capitalism. The symptom is unfairness. Regulation is a treatment of the symptom and is welcome where applied, but it will not cure the disease.

 

[andalusian]

The profit motive precludes fairness; capitalism, regulated or not, is inherently unfair to laborers. The problem is capitalism. The symptom is unfairness. Regulation is a treatment of the symptom and is welcome where applied, but it will not cure the disease.

Unfair to laborers? What other method do you have to earn in a fair way? Labor is basically contribution to society and you should earn based on said contribution. There is no fairer way I can think of for earning. Obviously, once you get into the nitty gritty of society, there are the special cases, those that can not and need support, those that are too old, too young etc... - but the general idea of earning based on contribution (which is what the basics of capitalism is) is the most fair way to do it. Any other way basically says some earn despite the fact that they do not contribute to society, even tho they can.

As a generic, optimal system, I can not think of a fairer one. The problem is that like in any system, there will be exploitation - which is where regulation comes in.

But, if you believe there is a fairer method than the pure idea of capitalism - which is that you earn based on your contributions, I am all ears.

 

[Everything Beagle]

What is profit? Where does profit come from? Who gets the profit?

 

[andalusian]

What is profit? Where does profit come from? Who gets the profit?

Profit is a tool that makes capitalism possible.

Now let's get back to my question - do you have a fairer method for distribution of resources than regulated capitalism? I am honestly still waiting.

Pointing out that the elements of the best system can be manipulated does not change the fact that there is no other, better system.

A utopian world does not exist, if it was, communism would work and everyone would do their best and earn the same. History has shown that it does not work in the real world.

So, if we can not identify a better, fairer system than regulated capitalism, let's concentrate on fixing the parts of it that need fixing and let's not throw the baby with the bath-water.

 

[crandc]

What is profit? Where does profit come from? Who gets the profit?

Profit arises because workers produce more value than the value of what they are paid. To oversimplify, worker A produces $100 value in an 8 hour day but I'd paid $80. That $20 is surplus value.

 

[Everything Beagle]

Profit is a tool that makes capitalism possible.

Profit is theft. Theft is what makes capitalism possible. Greed is what makes capitalism possible. There is no solution to this, because the power differential is too great, and it will end us as a species slowly over the next few hundred years. I don’t know why you think it’s my fucking job to give you a solution. Fine, regulate it or whatever. Those regulations will be repealed by greedier men. The system is broken and I don’t have to be the person with the solution to be right about that.

 

[yankeesince59]

The 3 basic human emotions are;

1. greed

2. fear

3. ...and greed.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I think Nordic and Scandinavian countries have gotten capitalism pretty well balanced.

If we could get to that point we'd be so much better off.

 

[Everything Beagle]

I think Nordic and Scandinavian countries have gotten capitalism pretty well balanced.

If we could get to that point we'd be so much better off.

I certainly wouldn’t complain, but good luck getting our current political climate from USA in 2023 to “it’s okay to tax us 53% to give everyone free health care, pensions, and state supported trade unions”. We are a dumping ground for greedy grifters, and it’ll take a lot more than voting blue no matter who to fix it.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I certainly wouldn’t complain, but good luck getting our current political climate from USA in 2023 to “it’s okay to tax us 53% to give everyone free health care, pensions, and state supported trade unions”. We are a dumping ground for greedy grifters, and it’ll take a lot more than voting blue no matter who to fix it.

I agree 100%. That's our challenge.

That's why I hate political will being wasted on other things that would be solved by addressing this. It's really the most important thing.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[crandc]

Which means every pride event.

Welcome to the free state of Florida.

 

[Chris Craig]

Profit is a tool that makes capitalism possible.

Now let's get back to my question - do you have a fairer method for distribution of resources than regulated capitalism? I am honestly still waiting.

Pointing out that the elements of the best system can be manipulated does not change the fact that there is no other, better system.

A utopian world does not exist, if it was, communism would work and everyone would do their best and earn the same. History has shown that it does not work in the real world.

So, if we can not identify a better, fairer system than regulated capitalism, let's concentrate on fixing the parts of it that need fixing and let's not throw the baby with the bath-water.

Capitalism is a lucky few making millions or billions off the backs of under paid local workforces. Alot of companies have been having their factories built overseas because they are greedy and can pay a child to build shit on unhumanely long shifts in terrible conditions for virtually nothing.

Living wages. Paying people what they deserve to be paid for the work they do. Regulations and laws to promote local production and to keep owners of corporations from being greedy fucks.

Capitalism is dressed up as the American dream. Everyone is supposed to be able to have a chance, but it doesn't work that way. These same corporations at the top are putting everyone else out of business.

We see minimum wage go up, but as soon as it does, prices go up because of greed.

I'm not against capitalism in itself, just how it's being leveraged by the few. I think the little guy should get a fairer shake, that's all.

 

[THE HCP]

Yes. All you said is true. It's really the terminology that made my fur stand up and ears go back. We're good.

Is this a bad time to ask why you have fur?

 

[crandc]

Is this a bad time to ask why you have fur?

Meow