The Home run.....

[yankeesince59]

...not for nothing, but Bonds always had a sweet swing too...so did Palmeiro (sp?)...as far as breaking down, that's part of the reason why some people may believe he "fits the profile". ARod broke down Mac broke down, etc. When certain players started and stopped using we'll never know for certain...which again, is part of the unfortunate cloud of suspicion during this calamitous era.
...if I had to bet my life that any certain player was a user, I wouldn't bet...but neither would I bet my life that any certain player was not a user.


...again, people are going to speculate both ways and neither side can be proven or disproven.

 

[yankeesince59]

Define steroid Rick? That's my point Rick. A steroid is a class of organic molecules with a general ring structure based on its assembly from isoprenoid subunits. Which ones are good and bad, who gets to make that determination? Do you want to characterize them by effect? You ingest multiple steroids every day in a normal healthy diet.

Now define performance enhancing. The common bronchodilator called albuterol, aka the rescue inhaler for anyone with asthma...that is considered a PED. If you are an Olympic athlete, tough shit, don't breathe, as someone could misuse it and increase their normal lung capacity.

I'm sorry, its a freaking witch hunt. People toss around terms that they have absolutely no understanding what these substances are, what they are used for and what they can do. And by FDA definition, you can't get a use label for any compound without a clinical trial that produces measurable results in a double blind study. To say that certain compound are PEDs is in itself pure speculation. 99.9% of all humans are too fucking dumb and ignorant to even realize that they are dumb and ignorant.

...as far as I know, every player/olympic athlete is given a list of chemicals/drugs/medications that are not allowed. And I don't recall anyone being falsely testing positive for PEDs. And fwiw, when someone uses the term "PEDS" it's a generic term for things that are not allowed in a players'/athletes' system.

 

[Rick2583]

As stated above...

If he were on PEDs, wouldn't he have been more likely to stay on the field more often from ages 30 to 37???

I would think the not being able to overcome the injuries is more a testament to being clean than anything... if he were a roider, her would have broken down at the end, not for a 7 year stretch...

Add to the fact that from the get go, he had the sweetest swing I've ever seen... that kind of swing would just drive the ball if connected... so........

Steve guys like Bonds & Sosa never broke down. & regardless of his age he was right in the middle of the PED ERA along with all the other guys. And as has been stated by several of us here in this thread, why is it that everyone who had great back to back to back etc, great seasons had fingers pointed at them but not at Griffey.

Again without sounding redundant, you could count on one hand the players that have had back to back 50+ HR seasons on one hand. And with the exception of Ruth the others are connected to PEDs. (Sosa, McGuire, A-Rod) Except Griffey.

And as also stated only 5 players have ever AVERAGED 50HRs per year over a 5 year span & again with the exception of Ruth the others are connected to PEDs (Sosa, McGuire & Bonds) But not Griffey. Really? Lets just give the guy a pass because he had a great swing. Sorry Steve......I just can't buy it.

 

[cmeese47]

Lets see why Griffey got a pass:
1. he was always hurt and steroids biggest help is in recovery
2. he did not gain 40 pounds of muscle in one off season
3. his hat size did not balloon up like 8 sizes in his 30's
4. he played in the kingdom with a beautiful uppercut swing protected in the lineup by Martinez, Bone, and A-Rod
5. he got worse with age not better

 

[Rick2583]

Lets see why Griffey got a pass:
1. he was always hurt and steroids biggest help is in recovery
2. he did not gain 40 pounds of muscle in one off season
3. his hat size did not balloon up like 8 sizes in his 30's
4. he played in the kingdom with a beautiful uppercut swing protected in the lineup by Martinez, Bone, and A-Rod
5. he got worse with age not better

You may want to take a closer look at ALL the PED cheats. NONE of them blew up like Bonds. Think Brady Anderson & Luis Gonzales. Also excessive stop & go usage of PEDs very often causes the body to break down. Think Mark McGuire.

And thank you for mentioning Boone & A-Rod two guys also connected to PEDs.

 

[yankeesince59]

Lets see why Griffey got a pass:
1. he was always hurt and steroids biggest help is in recovery
2. he did not gain 40 pounds of muscle in one off season
3. his hat size did not balloon up like 8 sizes in his 30's
4. he played in the kingdom with a beautiful uppercut swing protected in the lineup by Martinez, Bone, and A-Rod
5. he got worse with age not better

...^^^ wow, just wow. Aren't you the same guy who told us that the Yanx' chances didn't look that good because "Hughes sux"?...and after being informed that Hughes was no longer on the team, you then wanted to compare him to Nova. ?

 

[Rick2583]

...^^^ wow, just wow. Aren't you the same guy who told us that the Yanx' chances didn't look that good because "Hughes sux"?...and after being informed that Hughes was no longer on the team, you then wanted to compare him to Nova. ?

Gotta give the guy an E for effort but like you said......just wow.

 

[totus44]

See...we get these types of inaccurate generalizations because people equate PEDs with ANABOLIC steroids, and even there you can find a regimen that does not make you 'big'. People forget, Bonds still had to do the work in the gym....there is no easy 'super size me' shot, pill or cream.

Try reading the wiki for 'steroid'. You folks are actually only talking about the ones that mimic androgen.

And 59, there have been numerous examples of Olympic athletes that tested positive due to a contaminant in a supplement ( which is why WADA cert exists these days), or because they got dinged for a metabolite from a legit therapeutic. There are people pushing to make caffeine a PED, as I said its a bullshit witch hunt. The last thing we need is beauracracy in sport. I think MLB and MLBPA capitulated to the anti-PED nuts.

Currently we know of 32 analogs of androgen. You want to know how many are possible.....thousands. For less than 10k, you can design one and get it made in China or India and have a years supply. That is an innings worth of work for a superstar. And they have their personal lackies, where one can be the guinea pig. This is how Balco or Biogenesis works (along with the ability to write 'scripts). Ego backed by money will be the driver, no defense to this.

So be bold, and get out in front of it. Science is way to advanced, the PED era is here and it isn't going away.

 

[Rick2583]

See...we get these types of inaccurate generalizations because people equate PEDs with ANABOLIC steroids, and even there you can find a regimen that does not make you 'big'. People forget, Bonds still had to do the work in the gym....there is no easy 'super size me' shot, pill or cream.

Try reading the wiki for 'steroid'. You folks are actually only talking about the ones that mimic androgen.

And 59, there have been numerous examples of Olympic athletes that tested positive due to a contaminant in a supplement ( which is why WADA cert exists these days), or because they got dinged for a metabolite from a legit therapeutic. There are people pushing to make caffeine a PED, as I said its a bullshit witch hunt. The last thing we need is beauracracy in sport. I think MLB and MLBPA capitulated to the anti-PED nuts.

Currently we know of 32 analogs of androgen. You want to know how many are possible.....thousands. For less than 10k, you can design one and get it made in China or India and have a years supply. That is an innings worth of work for a superstar. And they have their personal lackies, where one can be the guinea pig. This is how Balco or Biogenesis works (along with the ability to write 'scripts). Ego backed by money will be the driver, no defense to this.

So be bold, and get out in front of it. Science is way to advanced, the PED era is here and it isn't going away.

Totus by "YOU FOLKS" you're talking about 99% of the population that follow sports.

 

[cmeese47]

...^^^ wow, just wow. Aren't you the same guy who told us that the Yanx' chances didn't look that good because "Hughes sux"?...and after being informed that Hughes was no longer on the team, you then wanted to compare him to Nova. ?

Wow just wow the Yankees fans desperately trying to label someone else a cheat. The Yankees have been the epitome of dirty baseball for years, Giambi, A-Rod, Clemens, Ryan Baker, Fernando Martinez, Segio Mitre, Daniel McCutchin, Francisco Cervelli, Matt Lawton, Kevin Brown, Melkey Cabrera, Jose Canseco, Bartolo Colon and on and on.

 

[Rick2583]

Wow just wow the Yankees fans desperately trying to label someone else a cheat. The Yankees have been the epitome of dirty baseball for years, Giambi, A-Rod, Clemens, Ryan Baker, Fernando Martinez, Segio Mitre, Daniel McCutchin, Francisco Cervelli, Matt Lawton, Kevin Brown, Melkey Cabrera, Jose Canseco, Bartolo Colon and on and on.

I'm new to the game of baseball so you'll have to help me here, did all those players you mention come up through the Yankees system?

 

[yankeesince59]

...tote, comparing the terminology of "PEDS" and "steroids" is kinda splitting hairs, so I won't even get into it...like I said "PEDs" is a generic term for what players are being tested for.

...I also don't see it as a total witch hunt either...I mean something needed to be done, don't you agree? Is the system that has been put in place perfect? ...no, but it's a start. But I believe you'll see a lot more strict rules and much stiffer penalties put in place after the next CBA.
... As far as the problem going away, no, it probably won't completely because there will be idiots who still want to take the short cut. Some will get away with it, some will be caught...but again, something needed to be done and I'm hopeful that at least PED use will be greatly reduced.

 

[yankeesince59]

Wow just wow the Yankees fans desperately trying to label someone else a cheat. The Yankees have been the epitome of dirty baseball for years, Giambi, A-Rod, Clemens, Ryan Baker, Fernando Martinez, Segio Mitre, Daniel McCutchin, Francisco Cervelli, Matt Lawton, Kevin Brown, Melkey Cabrera, Jose Canseco, Bartolo Colon and on and on.

...slow day on the Blazers' board, eh?... http://sportstwo.com/threads/258477-The-Truth



...but anyway, exactly who labeled someone "a cheat"?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

You may want to take a closer look at ALL the PED cheats. NONE of them blew up like Bonds. Think Brady Anderson & Luis Gonzales.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

I'm new to the game of baseball so you'll have to help me here, did all those players you mention come up through the Yankees system?

i definitely wouldnt say it was a systemic problem regarding the yankees development, they did seem eager to reward cheats with giant contracts a couple times though

 

[Rick2583]

Not implying that they were built little Pee Wee Herman. Just saying that they didn't resemble the HUGE size of Barry Bonds. I mean hell, underneath there shirts many players (even Griffey) could be solidly built.

 

[totus44]

...tote, comparing the terminology of "PEDS" and "steroids" is kinda splitting hairs, so I won't even get into it...like I said "PEDs" is a generic term for what players are being tested for.

...I also don't see it as a total witch hunt either...I mean something needed to be done, don't you agree? Is the system that has been put in place perfect? ...no, but it's a start. But I believe you'll see a lot more strict rules and much stiffer penalties put in place after the next CBA.
... As far as the problem going away, no, it probably won't completely because there will be idiots who still want to take the short cut. Some will get away with it, some will be caught...but again, something needed to be done and I'm hopeful that at least PED use will be greatly reduced.

No hairs to split. EPO, HGH, Bromantan, Ephedrine, diuretics, Albuterol, Cox-2 inhibitors (Vioxx, Celebrex), Beta blockers, Tamoxifen, and Creatine and all PEDs and none are steroids. Check your prescriptions gentlemen and ladies, you too are on PEDs.

But don't take my word for it...educate yourselves. 192 substances, of which only 56 are steroids.

And I can find multiple examples of alternatives for each compound class in the literature. Many successful drug development projects are abandoned simply because the project revenues don't meet the threshold cost requirements ( profitability 101).

http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002037

There is not stopping this except putting your head in the sand...of wait, that's how we're got here. Lol!

You'll notice alcohol, nicotine and stimulants...so I guess Mickey Mantle and Babe Ruth were also PED users. Or are you going to rank these as the slap on the wrist vs. Throw away the key PEDs. Yeah, no hunting witches here...let's move on.

 

[Rick2583]

No hairs to split. EPO, HGH, Bromantan, Ephedrine, diuretics, Albuterol, Cox-2 inhibitors (Vioxx, Celebrex), Beta blockers, Tamoxifen, and Creatine and all PEDs and none are steroids. Check your prescriptions gentlemen and ladies, you too are on PEDs.

But don't take my word for it...educate yourselves. 192 substances, of which only 56 are steroids.

And I can find multiple examples of alternatives for each compound class in the literature. Many successful drug development projects are abandoned simply because the project revenues don't meet the threshold cost requirements ( profitability 101).

http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002037

There is not stopping this except putting your head in the sand...of wait, that's how we're got here. Lol!

You'll notice alcohol, nicotine and stimulants...so I guess Mickey Mantle and Babe Ruth were also PED users. Or are you going to rank these as the slap on the wrist vs. Throw away the key PEDs. Yeah, no hunting witches here...let's move on.

I'll say it again & yes it is splitting hairs, If you were to ask 100 sports fans what PEDs were they would ALL say steroids. And no not Websters term of steroids but what sports has labeled them as. So that's where the hairs get split.

With that said, I'm just going to ask one question here that boarders on comical. How does substances like nicotine & alcohol enhance one's performance?

 

[totus44]

Rick, when you bring beaurocrats into sport, this is what you get....an ever inclining slippery slope.

And don't give me this bullshit poll 100 sports fans argument. Having a majority of people being wrong and ignorant of the facts doesn't make them right or change the facts. How many other ways do I have to define things here? Most PEDs ARE NOT STEROIDS, regardless of what people think. There aren't any hairs to split.

When officials talk about PEDs, this is the list that is being referenced. They want you to think, oh its just those bad steroids, yeah this is common sense stuff.
Well its not that simple, read the fine print. By today's standards, baseball has always been in the PED Era.

 

[Rick2583]

Rick, when you bring beaurocrats into sport, this is what you get....an ever inclining slippery slope.

And don't give me this bullshit poll 100 sports fans argument. Having a majority of people being wrong and ignorant of the facts doesn't make them right or change the facts. How many other ways do I have to define things here? Most PEDs ARE NOT STEROIDS, regardless of what people think. There aren't any hairs to split.

When officials talk about PEDs, this is the list that is being referenced. They want you to think, oh its just those bad steroids, yeah this is common sense stuff.
Well its not that simple, read the fine print. By today's standards, baseball has always been in the PED Era.

I don't want to milk this topic to death but right or wrong to your every day sports fan (like it or not) PEDs equal steroids. No one is saying they agree with the assessment, just discribing general PUBLIC OPINION.

Now, that aside, you didn't answer my question about alcohol & nicotine.

 

[totus44]

I did...that is the slippery slope. PED is any substance, natural or synthetic that alters ones physiology in preparation for or recovery from competitive activities. So yes...alcohol and nicotine qualify by these standards.

And as for beating a dead horse, all that's left is for you to say what everyone else is thinking...you're right totus. When it comes to science, I'm playing in Godmode, and your life force is running out, lol!

 

[Rick2583]

I did...that is the slippery slope. PED is any substance, natural or synthetic that alters ones physiology in preparation for or recovery from competitive activities. So yes...alcohol and nicotine qualify by these standards.

And as for beating a dead horse, all that's left is for you to say what everyone else is thinking...you're right totus. When it comes to science, I'm playing in Godmode, and your life force is running out, lol!

I will say nothing of the sought. What & take a chance of losing my god-like status on this board. I mean, who would you then worship? Are there no Gods? Are there no kings? Now...........fetch my robe & slippers.

 

[totus44]

Ha. Silly mortals.

 

[yankeesince59]

No hairs to split. EPO, HGH, Bromantan, Ephedrine, diuretics, Albuterol, Cox-2 inhibitors (Vioxx, Celebrex), Beta blockers, Tamoxifen, and Creatine and all PEDs and none are steroids. Check your prescriptions gentlemen and ladies, you too are on PEDs.

But don't take my word for it...educate yourselves. 192 substances, of which only 56 are steroids.

And I can find multiple examples of alternatives for each compound class in the literature. Many successful drug development projects are abandoned simply because the project revenues don't meet the threshold cost requirements ( profitability 101).

http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002037

There is not stopping this except putting your head in the sand...of wait, that's how we're got here. Lol!

You'll notice alcohol, nicotine and stimulants...so I guess Mickey Mantle and Babe Ruth were also PED users. Or are you going to rank these as the slap on the wrist vs. Throw away the key PEDs. Yeah, no hunting witches here...let's move on.

... it's splitting hairs, or semantics or if you prefer, choose another term. Whenever someone uses the term "PEDs" when talking Baseball, it's pretty much understood what they are talking about...there's no need to be so technical about a simple topic.
...do you think Bonds, Sosa, Arod, et al, were treated unfairly and should have been allowed to continue to make a farce of the game?...and the comparison of nicotine, alcohol, and stimulants to PEDs has no legs...you cannot simply go back in a time machine and undo things that happened eons ago...the PEDs issue is a present day problem and is being addressed by present day rules. There's a big difference.
...And not everyone needs any special education on the subject of PEDs and their wrongful use in the game of Baseball.

 

[totus44]

... it's splitting hairs, or semantics or if you prefer, choose another term. Whenever someone uses the term "PEDs" when talking Baseball, it's pretty much understood what they are talking about...there's no need to be so technical about a simple topic.
...do you think Bonds, Sosa, Arod, et al, were treated unfairly and should have been allowed to continue to make a farce of the game?...and the comparison of nicotine, alcohol, and stimulants to PEDs has no legs...you cannot simply go back in a time machine and undo things that happened eons ago...the PEDs issue is a present day problem and is being addressed by present day rules. There's a big difference.
...And not everyone needs any special education on the subject of PEDs and their wrongful use in the game of Baseball.

Buuuuuuuzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!! Thank you for playing.
I have demonstrated that (1) all steroids and not PEDs and (2) most PEDs are not androgen mimicking (aka, anabolic) steroids. So let me translate that for those folks in Little Rock....there ain't no fucking hairs to split. Whatever people think is being implied is just dead wrong, completely incorrect and its not even close.

No, what made the farce of the game was opening the door to the anti-PED nuts like USADA and WADA. We're already banning substances that were prevalent in clubhouses when Rick was a child. How long before they start the witch hunt on guys that took greenies? You're talking about substantial portion of Cooperstown that played in this PED era. That's the witch hunt and the skeleton in MLBs closet.

You only seem to care about the steroids, yet most of that stuff was perfectly legal to buy before the govt started using the FDA to ban supplements. Why should treat Mac and Sosa any differently for doing what was perfectly legal at that time? Technically we should be more pissed at Roger and Andy for HGH which had to be obtained under a false prescription which are felony offenses. Mac and Sosa bought supplements OTC at the local GNC.

Who is to say that the stimulants in the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s were less performance enhancing than the more exotic PEDs that arrived in the 90s. There are no side by side clinical studies or data, you're making assumptions based on trying to correlate data based on further assumptions.

This is my point, there is no way to know, therefore draw a line in the record book and call 1/1/90 the beginning of the modern age of baseball, keep separate records. Acknowledge there is no stopping PED development, so set basic standards of use and let players choose if the will engage. Level the playing field biochemically. This would be an honest way to address an otherwise unmanageable problem.

 

[Mattingly23NY]

I tot i was, but I am not worthy of this subject matter.

 

[yankeesince59]

Buuuuuuuzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!! Thank you for playing.
I have demonstrated that (1) all steroids and not PEDs and (2) most PEDs are not androgen mimicking (aka, anabolic) steroids. So let me translate that for those folks in Little Rock....there ain't no fucking hairs to split. Whatever people think is being implied is just dead wrong, completely incorrect and its not even close.

No, what made the farce of the game was opening the door to the anti-PED nuts like USADA and WADA. We're already banning substances that were prevalent in clubhouses when Rick was a child. How long before they start the witch hunt on guys that took greenies? You're talking about substantial portion of Cooperstown that played in this PED era. That's the witch hunt and the skeleton in MLBs closet.

You only seem to care about the steroids, yet most of that stuff was perfectly legal to buy before the govt started using the FDA to ban supplements. Why should treat Mac and Sosa any differently for doing what was perfectly legal at that time? Technically we should be more pissed at Roger and Andy for HGH which had to be obtained under a false prescription which are felony offenses. Mac and Sosa bought supplements OTC at the local GNC.

Who is to say that the stimulants in the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s were less performance enhancing than the more exotic PEDs that arrived in the 90s. There are no side by side clinical studies or data, you're making assumptions based on trying to correlate data based on further assumptions.

This is my point, there is no way to know, therefore draw a line in the record book and call 1/1/90 the beginning of the modern age of baseball, keep separate records. Acknowledge there is no stopping PED development, so set basic standards of use and let players choose if the will engage. Level the playing field biochemically. This would be an honest way to address an otherwise unmanageable problem.

...BUUUZZZ ! ...back at ya. You forgot that I still possess my "wild card" from earlier in this game of semantics...which has been clearly pointed out that there is no "time machine". All MLB can do "in the present day" is to handle the situation as it is today.

...and sorry I don't "only care about the steroids"...in fact, I don't believe I've mentioned them once. I have only used the general term "PEDs", which in this thread, covers the entire spectrum of banned substances. But for whatever reason you want to refer to them as something else and tell people to "get educated" because you have some experience with chemicals compounds as if we have no input. This is a simple topic about PEDs and their influence on
Baseball but your "splitting of hairs" is muddying up the water of a very simple idea. Congress would be envious.

 

[totus44]

To have any rationale, educated and civil discussion or debate, all sides must first agree to common rules and language. This is where we (you and Rick) and myself are at an impasse. I've laid out to you the precise scientific definitions of both PEDs and Steroids. You want to populist social/cultural ideals and use that as the basis of the discussion. I reject those premises because they are factually flawed and/or completely false, and thus skew the debate.

I don't need a time machine to know that I'm correct is my analysis. You claim that I can't say the 50s and 60s and 70s were the PED era (too) because no one consider amphetamines as performance enhancing and they weren't banned. Yet you won't accept my direct analogy that oral androgens like what Mac and Sosa were taking prior to 2003 were also not banned and therefore by extension of your logic also not PEDs. BS. Everyone know the pot of coffee with the freebies in it was a huge pick me up. Performances enhanced vs. the state if the uppers has not been consumed. Thus, MLB has likely been influenced by some form of performance enhancement for all of our lifetimes and likely earlier as well. Just because the effectiveness of PEDs have improved and evolved over time, why do we now punish modern players and give the older generations a pass?

Anything less than consistent treatment is hypocrisy.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

i think to a certain extent, people consider ILLEGAL ped use to be immoral, and some believe ALL ped use is immoral

i personally think it is kinda bullshit they arent allowed to use the newest forms of modern medicine in order to heal more rapidly

 

[BigDaddyAl1973]

is Tommy John surgery considered a enhancement?