OT The new foul rules

[Fairly-Hard]

It seems to me the refs are calling more fouls "Non Shooting" as well.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

because the officials are interpenetrating the new rules poorly? ....which could have easily been predicted...and was?

look at this, Dame's rate of FGA's at the rim:

View attachment 41421

and again, his FT rate progression:

View attachment 41422

in other words, Dame's FGA at the rim this year are 119% of his career mark, and 137% of his mark last season. Yet, his FT rate is 67% of his career mark and 62% of his mark last season

that those two metrics are headed so dramatically in opposite directions might just be coincidence. But that seems like a mighty tall coincidence considering the rule change and what we've seen so far, this season, in the NBA

by the way, his FTA's/possession are 59% of last season

so I guess the question is, which you kind of already answered, is Dame one of those players who was egregiously using unnatural moves to draw fouls? My answer is no....and that dovetails back to the rule change being a bad one because it was too damn broad and made the officials drastically over-compensate in their judgement calls

Or there is another reason; Dame is playing like shit and the fault lies with Dame.

 

[wizenheimer]

Or there is another reason; Dame is playing like shit and the fault lies with Dame.

Dame is shooting like shit from three, but he isn't driving any differently than past seasons (except he's doing it more). The last 2 games he's averaged 36 minutes, and he's shot 4 total FT's. Last season it would have been 15 FT's in 2 games. Dame certainly looks for whistles like most stars, but he's never really used unnatural moves to draw fouls, not like Harden, Young, and Doncic

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[Phatguysrule]

Dame is shooting like shit from three, but he isn't driving any differently than past seasons (except he's doing it more). The last 2 games he's averaged 36 minutes, and he's shot 4 total FT's. Last season it would have been 15 FT's in 2 games. Dame certainly looks for whistles like most stars, but he's never really used unnatural moves to draw fouls, not like Harden, Young, and Doncic

Yeah, if it's impacting dame getting to the line that much there is probably too much being missed...

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Okay, I was with you up until that las line. I usually think of soccer as about as exciting as sloth porn, but I have to admit that this play was from the recent Timbers match was pretty impressive:

I used to have a European guy on my team; he would spend just about all of every practice, trying that kick. Never made one in a game.....

 

[wizenheimer]

glad Dame is speaking out because he's being shafted by the new rules. He's driving to the rim at his normal rate, but is shooting 4 less FT's this season, and scoring 4 fewer points

look at the last column:

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Dame take note:
"Frustrated James Harden Tries To Draw Foul By Planting Gun On Defender"

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[wizenheimer]

best gauge is FT rate, which is FTA/FGA, not necessarily raw FTA's because minutes and role can vary a lot, season to season

the most revealing numbers there, IMO, is when you look at those impacted most, it is mostly the smaller players, like Dame. I think that's a function of the officials allowing a lot more contact because they are overcompensating so they aren't "suckered" into falling for the types of plays they are trying to eliminate. It will be easier to knock the smaller, shorter players out of sync

I think it's statistically impossible to explain away the dramatic drop in Dame's FG% at the rim, from .631 last season to .528 this season, without conceding Dame absorbing much more contact on his shots at the rim as a big factor

 

[riverman]

Dame got mugged in the paint last game...you could hear the contact...it was pretty blatant, other than that I like the way games have been called and that it's not as ticky tac with guys jumping into defenders and flopping.

 

[Phatguysrule]

best gauge is FT rate, which is FTA/FGA, not necessarily raw FTA's because minutes and role can vary a lot, season to season

the most revealing numbers there, IMO, is when you look at those impacted most, it is mostly the smaller players, like Dame. I think that's a function of the officials allowing a lot more contact because they are overcompensating so they aren't "suckered" into falling for the types of plays they are trying to eliminate. It will be easier to knock the smaller, shorter players out of sync

I think it's statistically impossible to explain away the dramatic drop in Dame's FG% at the rim, from .631 last season to .528 this season, without conceding Dame absorbing much more contact on his shots at the rim as a big factor

Yes. This makes the most sense to me as well. There is a lot more contact, and it's going to make normal sized players far less effective.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[Phatguysrule]

Guards are getting screwed. If Nurkic weren't so finesse around the rim he'd be far better off.

 

[royo]

Lol to the small ball then. Wonder if Olshe knew that when he was building dwarfs team.

 

[Minstrel]

I don't think this will last. I think there will be new guidance issued to referees to try to correct their overcompensation.

 

[twobullz]

Last year it seems a couple times a game Dame would try to through up a wild shot from outside the arc then get frustrated when the foul was not called. I am glad these type of plays are no longer happening.

 

[Minstrel]

I agree, but I really hope not. I like the new rules to not reward flops by players on offense. I like this balance to give defense more of a chance to be physical/aggressive.

The "not rewarding flopping" is what the rules are intended to address. That's not what I meant. What I meant is that actual contact by the defense (not fake contact that the offensive player creates) is now being not called for fouls, which wasn't the intent of the rules. That part, I believe, will get fixed.

 

[blazerkor]

The refs aren't following the new rules. The new rules are simply too nuanced for the refs so they're just blowing their whistles less. They're allowing guys to be hacked in the lane and slapped at during jumpers and in fact if the player isn't flailing around in nonbasketball movements the refs just aren't calling shit. Sure it's resulting in less fouls and a game that people who love to foul like Draymond like to watch more but if a defender disrupts a shot using contact with a scorer's body... that should be a fucking foul unless the scorer is making a nonbasketball move to cause the contact.

 

[illmatic99]

Guards are getting screwed. If Nurkic weren't so finesse around the rim he'd be far better off.

otoh, his foul rate is at a career low

 

[blazerkor]

The "not rewarding flopping" is what the rules are intended to address. That's not what I meant. What I meant is that actual contact by the defense (not fake contact that the offensive player creates) is now being not called for fouls, which wasn't the intent of the rules. That part, I believe, will get fixed.

I hope it does get fixed because it's a hackfest right now and less adept defensive minded players are loving it. They just get to slap at the ball and if they get someone's arm they still get the stop or they just get to body check someone driving through the lane and grab a dislodged ball for another stop.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

 

[wizenheimer]

that's a pretty stupid comment...or at least it leaves out so much context it's worthless....which is close enough to stupid to count as such....IMO

first off, Dame was 9th in FTA last season (while being 7th in minutes); and he was 8th in FTA the season before (while being 1st in minutes). So no, he doesn't rely on FT's the most

secondly, do the new foul rules mean players don't commit fouls? Do they mean officials are perfectly interpreting the new rules? Why is it that the smaller, quicker players seem to be those most 'harmed' by the new rules?

when those new rules were being analyzed I saw dozens of examples of the kind motion & action that was targeted. I don't recall Dame being used an example one time

 

[Hoopguru]

that's a pretty stupid comment...or at least it leaves out so much context it's worthless....which is close enough to stupid to count as such....IMO

first off, Dame was 9th in FTA last season (while being 7th in minutes); and he was 8th in FTA the season before (while being 1st in minutes). So no, he doesn't rely on FT's the most

secondly, do the new foul rules mean players don't commit fouls? Do they mean officials are perfectly interpreting the new rules? Why is it that the smaller, quicker players seem to be those most 'harmed' by the new rules?

when those new rules were being analyzed I saw dozens of examples of the kind motion & action that was targeted. I don't recall Dame being used an example one time

agree, and I think the refs are/will adjust their calls on the guards going to the hoop as the season goes on. The game to me anyway sure seems more physical.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Lol to the small ball then. Wonder if Olshe knew that when he was building dwarfs team.

Hmm. What team invented modern smallball? The Warriors, wasn't it? Let's check in to see how they're struggling...

 

[royo]

Hmm. What team invented modern smallball? The Warriors, wasn't it? Let's check in to see how they're struggling...

You sure they got three 6.3 ballhogs in S5? Idk...

 

[wizenheimer]

Hmm. What team invented modern smallball? The Warriors, wasn't it? Let's check in to see how they're struggling...

their 3 championship teams and this season:

Harrison Barnes 6-8
Draymond Green 6-6
Justin Holiday 6-6
Andre Iguodala 6-6
Shaun Livingston 6-7
Brandon Rush 6-6
Klay Thompson 6-6

Matt Barnes 6-7
Kevin Durant 6-10
Draymond Green 6-6
Andre Iguodala 6-6
Shaun Livingston 6-7
Klay Thompson 6-6

Omri Casspi 6-9
Kevin Durant 6-10
Draymond Green 6-6
Andre Iguodala 6-6
Shaun Livingston 6-7
Patrick McCaw 6-7
Klay Thompson 6-6
Nick Young 6-7

Jordan Poole 6-4
Andrew Wiggins 6-7
Draymond Green 6-6
Juan Toscano-Anderson 6-6
Otto Porter 6-8
Andre Iguodala 6-6
Moses Moody 6-6
Damion Lee 6-5
Jonathan Kuminga 6-8
(Klay Thompson) 6-6

let's not forget it all started when the Warriors picked one of Curry/Monta Eliis and traded the other

 

[Minstrel]

Warriors "small ball" means downsizing the big men to the 6'7''-6'8'' range, not playing three midgets. Curry is the only actually small (for basketball) player and he plays a position where smaller players are common.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

What is the total difference

their 3 championship teams and this season:

You, sir, have too much time on your hands.

let's not forget it all started when the Warriors picked one of Curry/Monta Eliis and traded the other

How much taller than Monta is current starter Jordan Poole?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Warriors "small ball" means downsizing the big men to the 6'7''-6'8'' range, not playing three midgets. Curry is the only actually small (for basketball) player and he plays a position where smaller players are common.

So instead of an undersized small forward they have an undersized center. That makes ALL the difference.