THE "OFFICIAL" AROUND THE NBA 2012-13 THREAD...........

[Natebishop3]

Hey Westbrook is a beast, but he has no conscience when it comes to a good or bad shot. When he's on he's unstoppable, but when he's not, he doesn't have the brains to give up the rock.

He's supposedly a point guard. Do you really want your point guard taking more shots than your superstar?

 

[NOVoodoo]

He's supposedly a point guard. Do you really want your point guard taking more shots than your superstar?

There's a solution to that though - get a point guard that can guard the shooting guards on defense. It's been done before, and OKC still has time to make that happen. I'm just not sure why they're reluctant to pull that trigger.

 

[Natebishop3]

There's a solution to that though - get a point guard that can guard the shooting guards on defense. It's been done before, and OKC still has time to make that happen. I'm just not sure why they're reluctant to pull that trigger.

Instead they got Kevin Martin lol

 

[handiman]

He's supposedly a point guard. Do you really want your point guard taking more shots than your superstar?

If you don't think Westbrook is a superstar, you're out of your mind. I'd go as far as to say RW is actually the tougher of the two to contain, which isn't quite the same thing as being the superior player. If RW is relegated to being a pass first point guard, the Thunder become a very one-dimensional team.

Nate, your view on the matter is the same as a coach who ruins a player by forcing them to fit the system, rather than adapting the system to take advantage of the players present.

 

[Natebishop3]

If you don't think Westbrook is a superstar, you're out of your mind. I'd go as far as to say RW is actually the tougher of the two to contain, which isn't quite the same thing as being the superior player. If RW is relegated to being a pass first point guard, the Thunder become a very one-dimensional team.

Nate, your view on the matter is the same as a coach who ruins a player by forcing them to fit the system, rather than adapting the system to take advantage of the players present.

Russell Westbrook isn't even the second or even third best point guard in the NBA. He's far from a superstar. All-Star? Yes, but definitely not a superstar. And if you think RW is harder to contain than Durant, you're nuts. Kevin Durant is a top-five player in the league because he's a freak. He's a natural scorer and an insane athlete.

My view on the matter is that the thunder should have traded Westbrook instead of harden because at least Harden is a natural two and not a combo scoring guard like Westbrook.

 

[handiman]

if you think RW is harder to contain than Durant, you're nuts. Kevin Durant is a top-five player in the league because he's a freak. He's a natural scorer and an insane athlete.

You just described RW to a tee and didn't realize it, which illustrates how jaded you are on the matter.

Both are athletic freaks, but Durant is nowhere near the blur that RW is. It's easy to put a body on Durant, albeit difficult to affect his shot. RW, you just can't contain. That's largely what makes Durant so effective.

My view on the matter is that the thunder should have traded Westbrook instead of harden because at least Harden is a natural two and not a combo scoring guard like Westbrook.

I agree 100%, but that's a totally different topic.

 

[Boob-No-More]

You just described RW to a tee and didn't realize it, which illustrates how jaded you are on the matter.

Both are athletic freaks, but Durant is nowhere near the blur that RW is. It's easy to put a body on Durant, albeit difficult to affect his shot. RW, you just can't contain. That's largely what makes Durant so effective.

Who cares if you can't contain Westbrook if he bricks the shot? Who cares if it's easy to put a body on Durant if it doesn't affect his shot. The fact is, Durant is a MUCH more efficient scorer who shoots a superior percentage. There is a reason he's the 3-time reining scoring champion. Harden was also a far more efficient scorer than Westbrook. For Westbrook, the least efficient of the three, by far, to be taking more shots than Durant or Harden is just insane and keeps OKC from reaching their potential - which is exactly what happened in the play-offs last year. The ONLY person who can keep Kevin Durant from winning a 4th straight scoring title is Russell Westbrook.

And a stat line of 6-21 with 5 AST and 6 TOV is just hideous for a PG. That's 4.2 FGA per AST (anything more than about 2.2 is ballhog territory for a PG) an a AST:TO ratio of 0.833.

Westbrook is Stephon Marbury to Durant's Kevin Garnett.

OKC definitely traded the wrong guy.

BNM

 

[BrianFromWA]

Durant wins scoring titles, Oden wins...nevermind. Too soon?

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Durant wins scoring titles, Oden wins...nevermind. Too soon?

He wins beer pong championships.

 

[Nikolokolus]

If you don't think Westbrook is a superstar, you're out of your mind. I'd go as far as to say RW is actually the tougher of the two to contain, which isn't quite the same thing as being the superior player. If RW is relegated to being a pass first point guard, the Thunder become a very one-dimensional team.

Nate, your view on the matter is the same as a coach who ruins a player by forcing them to fit the system, rather than adapting the system to take advantage of the players present.

What does this even mean? In particular what do you mean by "contain?" If you mean it's harder to keep RW from driving, I guess that might be true, but given the disparity in the two players' free throw rates and shooting percentages how does it even really matter?

http://www.basketball-reference.com...m=1&p1=westbru01&y1=2013&p2=duranke01&y2=2013

 

[santeesioux]

You don't think PA would offer this guy a contract, do you? They did go after Hibbert after all...

http://www.examiner.com/article/and...ee-agent-at-end-of-season-according-to-report

 

[Nikolokolus]

I would love Al Jefferson as our starting center. His low post game would work perfectly with LA.

How does a plodder like Jefferson fit into Stotts scheme?

 

[KingSpeed]

I've been playing a whole season with the Thunder on 2K12. We're in the WCF now. Westbrook is my top scorer.

 

[handiman]

Who cares if you can't contain Westbrook if he bricks the shot? Who cares if it's easy to put a body on Durant if it doesn't affect his shot. The fact is, Durant is a MUCH more efficient scorer who shoots a superior percentage.

This is the same flawed logic that has many people here convinced that Allen Iverson was never a good player. To statisticians such as yourself, efficiency is pretty much everything. In real game situations, though, the pressure you put on the defense is just as important. It gets defenders out of position, opening up scoring opportunities for teammates, easy rebounds, and an energy edge late in games. And it's not like Westbrook is poor at making shots. When he's on, few in the league are better.

 

[handiman]

What does this even mean? In particular what do you mean by "contain?" If you mean it's harder to keep RW from driving, I guess that might be true, but given the disparity in the two players' free throw rates and shooting percentages how does it even really matter?

Westbrook has defenses constantly on their heels. Durant doesn't. Pretty simple, isn't it?

 

[Nikolokolus]

Westbrook has defenses constantly on their heels. Durant doesn't. Pretty simple, isn't it?

Totally and completely disagree.

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Maynor/Durant/Harden >>>> Westbrook/Durant/Martin

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Russell Westbrook isn't even the second or even third best point guard in the NBA. He's far from a superstar. All-Star? Yes, but definitely not a superstar. And if you think RW is harder to contain than Durant, you're nuts. Kevin Durant is a top-five player in the league because he's a freak. He's a natural scorer and an insane athlete.

My view on the matter is that the thunder should have traded Westbrook instead of harden because at least Harden is a natural two and not a combo scoring guard like Westbrook.

They should have tried to trade Westbrook for Lillard + cap space, which we probably would have done. If they did that, they'd still have Harden and we'd be talking dynasty.

Not. Kidding.

 

[handiman]

Totally and completely disagree.

Okay then, look at it this way. With Westbrook, there's no way you can game plan for him. He's going to get his shot whenever he wants. All you can do is hope he misses. With Durant, he's really not that tough to guard and move him off his preferred spots. Of course, he's good enough that he's still going to hit a lot of tough shots, but at least the defense has a fighting chance to make it tougher on him. And if it weren't for Westbrook being a terror all over the court, it would be a lot easier to slow Durant down with constant doubles.

An attacking point guard is the toughest position to defend in today's NBA, and Westbrook is as good as any at that.

 

[Boob-No-More]

This is the same flawed logic that has many people here convinced that Allen Iverson was never a good player. To statisticians such as yourself, efficiency is pretty much everything. In real game situations, though, the pressure you put on the defense is just as important. It gets defenders out of position, opening up scoring opportunities for teammates, easy rebounds, and an energy edge late in games. And it's not like Westbrook is poor at making shots. When he's on, few in the league are better.

Bullshit. In Westbrook's case, it creates low percentage shots, turnovers and freezes out his better shooting teammates.

When he's on, few in the league are better.

That's a ridiculous comment. You can say the EXACT same thing about Durant and Harden. And, in Durant's case, when he's "on" none are better. That's why he's led the league in scoring 3 years in a row. The difference is Durant and Harden are "on" much more often that Westbrook. Trading Harden was stupid. Like Westbrook, he can beat his man off the dribble and draws tons of fouls. The difference is both Durant and Harden shoot better than Westbrook from 2-point range, from 3-point range and from the FT line. But hey, I LOVE it when Westbrook tries to take over in the 4th quarter, because that means the Thunder are more likely to lose.

BNM

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Would rather have Durant than Westbrook. Would rather have Westbrook than Harden.

Westbrook is a recognized star in the league. His impact in the game is something that can't be measured by stats, IMO. Harden can score, no doubt. Can he lead a a team the way Westbrook has, we shall see.


So far round one of this debate goes to Harden. But they each have 83 more rounds to go.

 

[BrianFromWA]

So far round one of this debate goes to Harden. But they each have 83 more rounds to go.

81?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

81?

Doh . . . yes 81*


(*not counting playoffs)

 

[BrianFromWA]

I think I'd go Durant, Harden, RW if making my team. I value decision-making and teammate involvement in my PG, and I think Harden's a much better shooter than RW.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Eddy Curry being waived. GET UP ON IT!

 

[Boob-No-More]

Okay then, look at it this way. With Westbrook, there's no way you can game plan for him.

Sure, you can. Back off him and dare him to shoot. Make him try to beat you with his shot.

He's going to get his shot whenever he wants.

Which is exactly what you want. You want Durant (and formerly Harden) to be a total non-factor in the 4th quarter of a close game. The defense doesn't even have to take Durant out of the game. Westbrook does it for them.

All you can do is hope he misses.

Which he will, more times than not.

With Durant, he's really not that tough to guard and move him off his preferred spots.

Yeah, he's such an easy cover. That's why he's led the league in scoring three straight years. That's why he scored 5.4 ppg more than Westbrook during the playoffs in spite of taking fewer shots. I know you want to ignore the stats, because they completely destroy your argument, but the facts are undeniable. In the 2012 playoffs:

Durant:
PPG = 28.5
FGA/G = 19.2
TS% = .632
eFG% = .570
WS/48 = .231

Westbrook:
PPG = 23.1
FGA/G = 20.4
TS% = .506
eFG% = .457
WS/48 = .133

Harden:
PPG = 16.3
FGA/G = 10.7
TS% = .605
eFG% = .509
WS/48 = .184

If you find all those numbers confusing. Here it is all boiled down to a single number PTS/FGA:

Durant: 570 PTS/383 FGA = 1.49
Harden : 326 PTS / 214 FGA = 1.52
Westbrook = 461 PTS /407 FGA = 1.13

Yeah, those are just numbers, but they clearly illustrate what I saw with my on eyes while watching the games. In the 4th quarter of close games, Westbrook tried to take over EVERY time. He forced up bad, low percentage shots and froze out his better shooting teammates. Not what I want in a PG, or in a teammate in general.

Executive Summary: I'm glad OKC decided to keep Westbrook and trade Harden.

BNM

 

[BrianFromWA]

I didn't realize until BNM posted it that Westbrook took more FGA than Durant and double those of Harden last year. That strikes me as, well, ludicrous.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

durant - westbrook = suck HARD
(durant + westbrook) - harden = still suck

check the W/L records

 

[crowTrobot]

MKG sighting

 

[Boob-No-More]

I didn't realize until BNM posted it that Westbrook took more FGA than Durant and double those of Harden last year. That strikes me as, well, ludicrous.

Those numbers are for the 2012 playoffs. It got even worse during the finals:

Durant: FGA = 104
Westbrook: FGA = 120
Harden: FGA = 48

And the trend continued last night against the Spurs:

Durant:
9-18 FG
.500 FG%
23 PTS
1.28 PTS/FGA

Westbrook:
6-21 FG
.286 FG%
18 PTS
0.86 PTS/FGA

This is what happens when Robin thinks he should be the one driving the Batmobile. The more Westbrook calls his own number, the more likely the Thunder will lose. I'm fine with that.

BNM