The Official CJ McCollum Thread

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Parker. Wiggins, CJ. 3 turds in a pod. Which has the least trade value?
 
45 Games into the Season and this Thread is hot as never before, MeJ really fucked up his trade value. I doubt Teams are even interested in him. I would Never want him on my Team with his ridiculous contract.
 
I've been advocating moving CJ for 3 seasons now. Took a lot of flak for it early. It wasn't because of production. It was HOW he was producing and what it did to the rest of the team. Actually, I think he would be much better on his own....but not teamed with Dame. They both need the ball to be at their best.

1 ball, 2 ball dominant guards.

Doesn't really work.
 
CJ is the antithesis of team basketball. My favorite play is when he “runs” a pick and roll with Nurk and hopscotches into Nurks space on the roll.
 
CJ had a tough night, and is having a bit of a down year. But how good is he compared to other teams number 2 scoring option?

Here's a look at each team's number 2 scoring option, ranked by points-per-game and eFG%:

upload_2019-1-14_22-40-55.png

Yes, I know there are many ways to rank players. But I'm simply looking at the scoring efficiency of each team's number 2 option. Defense of course isn't take into account. Contracts aren't taken into account. Simply scoring productivity and efficiency.

We all expect a lot out of CJ. He's got a big contract to live up to. And yes, he's having a down year. But looking at the league wide picture, I think CJ stacks up pretty good for the role that he's in.
 
42N8Bounce said:
CJ had a tough night, and is having a bit of a down year. But how good is he compared to other teams number 2 scoring option?

Here's a look at each team's number 2 scoring option, ranked by points-per-game and eFG%:

View attachment 24272

Yes, I know there are many ways to rank players. But I'm simply looking at the scoring efficiency of each team's number 2 option. Defense of course isn't take into account. Contracts aren't taken into account. Simply scoring productivity and efficiency.

We all expect a lot out of CJ. He's got a big contract to live up to. And yes, he's having a down year. But looking at the league wide picture, I think CJ stacks up pretty good for the role that he's in.
Click to expand...
But he's not having a "down year". Can we please end this myth?

CJ's stats and production has been very consistent 3 of the 4 years he's been a starter. The one year aberration was when he won MIP....

He's a good player, not a great player. This is who he is. He'd be a better player overall if he had his own team.
 
TBpup said:
I've been advocating moving CJ for 3 seasons now. Took a lot of flak for it early. It wasn't because of production. It was HOW he was producing and what it did to the rest of the team. Actually, I think he would be much better on his own....but not teamed with Dame. They both need the ball to be at their best.

1 ball, 2 ball dominant guards.

Doesn't really work.
Click to expand...
Same with me and Stotts.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
Would a different coach make CJ more effective?
Would a different SG make Stotts more effective?
Click to expand...
Yes. I think a different coach would likely hold CJ more accountable.
and...
No. A different SG would simply mask his flaws less apparent (a player that doesnt need to be held accountable will make a coach who struggles to hold his players accountable look better).
 
tester551 said:
But he's not having a "down year". Can we please end this myth?

CJ's stats and production has been very consistent 3 of the 4 years he's been a starter. The one year aberration was when he won MIP....

He's a good player, not a great player. This is who he is. He'd be a better player overall if he had his own team.
Click to expand...


He is having a down year shooting the ball. It actually started towards the end of last year. During his first 2.75 years as a starter (after Wes left) CJ was a consistent 42% 3 pt shooter. His late season slump caused him to dip below 40% for the first time since he became the starting SG. This year he’s been WAY below his previous standard, currently at 33%. When he’s not shooting well the warts in his game (passing, defending, rebounding, over dribbling, etc.) are magnified. The scary thing is the drop off started last season. Is it really just a shooting slump at this point? Can you chalk it up to a down year when it started last season? In the past I have not been on the “Trade CJ” bandwagon. But if this is the new CJ we’re in trouble. He needs to be an elite shooter to help this team win. Otherwise Neil will be forced to move him. As much as some want this done yesterday, just be careful what you wish for. His trade value isn’t as high now, and if the return isn’t great you risk alienating Dame, who will be UFA in 2 years. To me the best outcome isn’t necessarily trading CJ (unless we get a really good player in return, AKA someone better than Harrison Barnes!). I’d rather CJ just start shredding nets again like he’s done in the past. The question is . . . if/when that will happen. Even the CJ “supporters” like me are getting nervous.


CJ 3P % by season
2015/2016 .417
2016/2017 .421
2017/2018 .397
2018/2019 .338
 
A lot of players have down years in their shooting %s. Actually even though the whole league is shooting huge amount of threes, if you look player by player on those who have been good in recent years, they are really having a much worse year:

Reggie Bullock - 44.5% last year, 39.8% this year (which is bacck to normal but still interesting)
Gary Harris - 39.6% last year, 42.0% the year before, only 33.3% this year
Jamal Murray - 37.8% last year, only 33.2% this year
Darren Collison - 46.8% last year, 37.6% this year
Joe Ingles - 44% both previous years, 37.2% this year
Klay Thompson - 44% last year and over 40% all years of his career, 36% this year
Jayson Tatum - 43.4% last year, 37.3% this year
JJ Redick - 42% last year, 37.4% this year. Was over 40% for 4 years straight before.
 
What's most frustrating, Neil will never trade cj because he thinks he's a "superstar", and now CJ has fucked up his trade value so much i Don't know if Teams are even interested on MeJ, we have to live with this until 2021. I'm so tired of this overpaid ISO chucker
 
42N8Bounce said:
CJ had a tough night, and is having a bit of a down year. But how good is he compared to other teams number 2 scoring option?

Here's a look at each team's number 2 scoring option, ranked by points-per-game and eFG%:

View attachment 24272

Yes, I know there are many ways to rank players. But I'm simply looking at the scoring efficiency of each team's number 2 option. Defense of course isn't take into account. Contracts aren't taken into account. Simply scoring productivity and efficiency.

We all expect a lot out of CJ. He's got a big contract to live up to. And yes, he's having a down year. But looking at the league wide picture, I think CJ stacks up pretty good for the role that he's in.
Click to expand...
That's a perfect chart to show why CJ can be a problem though. He's the 13th best at eFG% (ignoring that TS% is a better metric) but scores the 3rd amount of points. That means that he's average at efficiency but takes a lot of shots. This is exactly the point some of us are making that he should be shooting less and taking more efficient shots. I'd rather his PPG went down a little bit if he got his points more efficiently. Guys like Tatum, Bogdanovic, and Gobert average a few less points but take way less shots to get those points, that matters.

Plus we are ignoring every other part of basketball like passing, rebounding, and defense.
 
hoopsjock said:
That's a perfect chart to show why CJ can be a problem though. He's the 13th best at eFG% (ignoring that TS% is a better metric) but scores the 3rd amount of points. That means that he's average at efficiency but takes a lot of shots. This is exactly the point some of us are making that he should be shooting less and taking more efficient shots. I'd rather his PPG went down a little bit if he got his points more efficiently. Guys like Tatum, Bogdanovic, and Gobert average a few less points but take way less shots to get those points, that matters.

Plus we are ignoring every other part of basketball like passing, rebounding, and defense.
Click to expand...
Exactly. Completely agree.

Kaydow said:
He is having a down year shooting the ball. It actually started towards the end of last year. During his first 2.75 years as a starter (after Wes left) CJ was a consistent 42% 3 pt shooter. His late season slump caused him to dip below 40% for the first time since he became the starting SG. This year he’s been WAY below his previous standard, currently at 33%. When he’s not shooting well the warts in his game (passing, defending, rebounding, over dribbling, etc.) are magnified. The scary thing is the drop off started last season. Is it really just a shooting slump at this point? Can you chalk it up to a down year when it started last season? In the past I have not been on the “Trade CJ” bandwagon. But if this is the new CJ we’re in trouble. He needs to be an elite shooter to help this team win. Otherwise Neil will be forced to move him. As much as some want this done yesterday, just be careful what you wish for. His trade value isn’t as high now, and if the return isn’t great you risk alienating Dame, who will be UFA in 2 years. To me the best outcome isn’t necessarily trading CJ (unless we get a really good player in return, AKA someone better than Harrison Barnes!). I’d rather CJ just start shredding nets again like he’s done in the past. The question is . . . if/when that will happen. Even the CJ “supporters” like me are getting nervous.

CJ 3P % by season
2015/2016 .417
2016/2017 .421
2017/2018 .397
2018/2019 .338
Click to expand...
You are only looking at 1 metric here. How about we look at some others....
  • .................TS%.......AST%.....WS/48.....ORtg.......DRtg
  • 2014/15.....0.534.....10.3.....0.089.......103.......105
  • 2015/16.....0.544.....21.6.....0.104.......108.......110
  • 2016/17.....0.585....18.0.....0.131.......114.......113
  • 2017/18.....0.536.....15.8......0.108.......108.......109
  • 2018/19.....0.538.....12.6..... 0.088.......109.......113

Maybe you could argue he's having a slightly lower than average year, but everything is very close to his career averages (and within the variation that you should expect). That 16/17 year is the aberration.
 
Last edited:
42N8Bounce said:
CJ had a tough night, and is having a bit of a down year. But how good is he compared to other teams number 2 scoring option?

Here's a look at each team's number 2 scoring option, ranked by points-per-game and eFG%:

View attachment 24272

Yes, I know there are many ways to rank players. But I'm simply looking at the scoring efficiency of each team's number 2 option. Defense of course isn't take into account. Contracts aren't taken into account. Simply scoring productivity and efficiency.

We all expect a lot out of CJ. He's got a big contract to live up to. And yes, he's having a down year. But looking at the league wide picture, I think CJ stacks up pretty good for the role that he's in.
Click to expand...

ok then. Let's at least set the stage by acknowledging that eFG's is a poor gauge of both shooting efficiency and scoring efficiency. Any shooting or scoring stat that doesn't account for FT's is deeply flawed. It might tell you something about the progression of an individual player over seasons, but it's a crappy tool for comparing players unless the focus is so damn narrow it's useless

let's look at you list thru a little different cherry-picking lens (and by the way, Clint Capela is not Houston's #2)

TS%....assist/36:

Gobert .668....2.4
Gallinari .632....2.9
Kevin Durant .625....6.1
Bogdanovich .624....2.0
TJ Warren .585....1.8
Butler .574....3.8
Derrick Rose .572....5.8
Aldridge .570....2.7
Middleton .565....4.8
Kyle Lowry .560....10.2
DeAaron Fox .560....8.3
Barnes .559....1.2
Tatum .557....2.0
Jrue Holiday .555....8.1
Lamb .548....2.4
Kyle Kuzma .544....2.6
Chris Paul .544....8.7
Clarkson .541....3.0
Gasol .541....4.8
CJ .538....2.8
Markkanen .536....1.2
Fournier .533....4.2
John Wall .527....9.1
Reggie Jackson .527....5.3
Mudiay .526....5.5
Russell .524....7.7
Murray .515....5.2
Dragic .510....6.0
Trae Young .502....8.7
Westbrook .477....10.8

congratulations to CJ, he's 20th on the list in TS%. And he's 22nd in assists as he's able to beat out some forwards and C's. Maybe not so impressive since shooting is supposed to be CJ's calling card; it's what he's paid to do and he truly doesn't do much else. You'd hope he'd show better than that

speaking of being paid, he's 6th on that list in salary, so that's a consideration. CJ is tied for 25th in the league in scoring but he's 18th in FGA's. In other words, looking at PPG without accounting for FGA leaves out some important context. For instance, all of CJ's teammates combine to score 1.27 points/FGA; CJ scores 1.15
 
I don’t think CJ is among Portland’s most valuable trade chips, mainly because of his contract. So let’s assume that he won’t be traded. So if he’s going to stay, we may as well explore ways to maximize his abilities.

Not including this season, CJ has maintained a strong percentage in catch and shoot situations since he’s been a starter. He compares favorably to the elite spot up shooters in the NBA. For example, Klay has hovered around 43-44% the last three seasons, and I think a lot of people would consider him the benchmark. By comparison, CJ the last three seasons has hovered around 42-43%. He’s actually got a superior percentage this season as well.

I realize Klay takes a lot more spot up shots, shit, they make up the majority of his shots. All I’m saying is that we should be running more plays for CJ off the ball, and maybe leaning less on him dribbling and creating for others, something he has never been efficient at.

But I feel like this has already been discussed, and I doubt Stotts is going to make the adjustment and it’ll most likely cost him his job eventually. But I’m just a fan who’s never been a head coach so I should probably just shut up and fall in line.
 
Scalma said:
I don’t think CJ is among Portland’s most valuable trade chips, mainly because of his contract. So let’s assume that he won’t be traded. So if he’s going to stay, we may as well explore ways to maximize his abilities.

Not including this season, CJ has maintained a strong percentage in catch and shoot situations since he’s been a starter. He compares favorably to the elite spot up shooters in the NBA. For example, Klay has hovered around 43-44% the last three seasons, and I think a lot of people would consider him the benchmark. By comparison, CJ the last three seasons has hovered around 42-43%. He’s actually got a superior percentage this season as well.

I realize Klay takes a lot more spot up shots, shit, they make up the majority of his shots. All I’m saying is that we should be running more plays for CJ off the ball, and maybe leaning less on him dribbling and creating for others, something he has never been efficient at.

But I feel like this has already been discussed, and I doubt Stotts is going to make the adjustment and it’ll most likely cost him his job eventually. But I’m just a fan who’s never been a head coach so I should probably just shut up and fall in line.
Click to expand...
The other day Klay had 43 points and only dribbled the ball 4 TIMES! Can you imagine CJ's efficiency if he only took shots that didn't require a dribble?
 
hoopsjock said:
The other day Klay had 43 points and only dribbled the ball 4 TIMES! Can you imagine CJ's efficiency if he only took shots that didn't require a dribble?
Click to expand...

Four times lol, I’ve seen CJ get twice that on one possession. Get that non sense outta here.
 
hoopsjock said:
Click to expand...


If CJ was used like that I bet our ball movement would improve. CJ is the only one that actively refuses to incorporate it into his game. And maybe he shouldn’t, maybe he knows he’s not very good at it anyway. But then it’s the coaches job to take the ball out of his hands, rather than enabling selfish basketball.

The only problem with that is Aminu is a shit passer as well, and so is Harkless. That’s three fifths of the lineup.

Maybe the GM should get players that actually fit together before we rag on Stotts.

Idk what I’m saying anymore just get me off this rollercoaster already.
 
Scalma said:
If CJ was used like that I bet our ball movement would improve. CJ is the only one that actively refuses to incorporate it into his game. And maybe he shouldn’t, maybe he knows he’s not very good at it anyway. But then it’s the coaches job to take the ball out of his hands, rather than enabling selfish basketball.

The only problem with that is Aminu is a shit passer as well, and so is Harkless. That’s three fifths of the lineup.

Maybe the GM should get players that actually fit together before we rag on Stotts.

Idk what I’m saying anymore just get me off this rollercoaster already.
Click to expand...

I think what you might be saying is that the architect of this roster should have been fired before now
 
Once again, against good defensive teams he looks lost and bricks shot after shot. Good luck with him in the Playoffs
 
Labinot41 said:
Once again, against good defensive teams he looks lost and bricks shot after shot. Good luck with him in the Playoffs
Click to expand...

I agree. That was a ridiculous performance tonight. What were his numbers anyway? Did he even make double-digits?
 
He thinks he's Kobe but he's Jamal.

/endrant
 
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