The official Nurk, the shoulder thread

[MickZagger]

Nurk needs to work on an up and under during the offseason. He's only 22, but right now his face up game is way better than back to the basket.

 

[Scalma]

there isn't one elite team that also doesn't consistently bitch to the referees. There's a reason behind that. Naive to think otherwise imo

 

[dviss1]

If what you were saying was the reality then you wouldn't see coaches and players ride refs the way they do. Referees are human beings, of course they can be influenced, especially when its an elite coach like pop in their ear.

Says all the people who don't referee or consort with referees. There isn't one referee who will tell you that a whiny coach/player/spectator influenced their call.

My mentor (an NBA evaluator):

"Every coach male or female that ever coached a game is a fucking PRICK. But you gotta know how to handle your prick."

You'll give that coach an ear and maybe he/she genuinely is seeing something the referee is missing, but there's not one HS, College, or NBA referee that is making calls based upon the whines of players and coaches.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Meh. Perception is reality.

Ya, could be that for sure. It does seem like it though

 

[Mediocre Man]

You do realize that in the playoffs no officiating crew works two games in a row in the same series, right? I seriously doubt the incoming crew cares enough to even read/listen what the coaches said about the previous game's crew.

BNM

No , I dont think that. I think the league looks at it and changes are made. Just like if games get chippy, the next crew calls the game tighter.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Says all the people who don't referee or consort with referees. There isn't one referee who will tell you that a whiny coach/player/spectator influenced their call.

My mentor (an NBA evaluator):

"Every coach male or female that ever coached a game is a fucking PRICK. But you gotta know how to handle your prick."

You'll give that coach an ear and maybe he/she genuinely is seeing something the referee is missing, but there's not one HS, College, or NBA referee that is making calls based upon the whines of players and coaches.

A lot of action is subconscious though. A ref might not consciously decide to make calls a certain way in response to complaining, but a ref might subconsciously be on the lookout for something that he might not have focused on before.

 

[dviss1]

A lot of action is subconscious though. A ref might not consciously decide to make calls a certain way in response to complaining, but a ref might subconsciously be on the lookout for something that he might not have focused on before.

You'll give that coach an ear and maybe he/she genuinely is seeing something the referee is missing,

 

[Orion Bailey]

Lol no it won't. Complaining doesn't garner you one single thing from an official.

see below

I have dvr. I didnt think i was missing anything after the whistle blew. Amateur move by me

Learn the game, then watch!!!

It may not from you. I've seen it too many times. Coaches get to the podium after a game in the playoffs and complain their guy is getting no respect. Next game that guy amazingly gets more calls.

I agree with this to an extent.

Complaining may not get you much that night, but doesn't it raise a red flag to the people reviewing the refs minute by minute ticker?

Doesn't it garner more attention from the refs union to look further into?
I have ... well I want to believe that a coach can say enough bad calls is a enough and flip a lid, get T'd over it, and then have the officials review the game to see whether the complaints were valid or not?
Then Portland makes the radar list of teams who have had bad calls go against them, so we then get a better ref crew, or refs more alert to the history of our games?

There has to be SOMETHING that can be done.
Putting refs on some irremovable "can do no wrong" pedestal, is gonna cause me to lose interest in the game.

We all make mistakes, but Refs never have to own or repair theirs. Major double standard if you ask me.

 

[dviss1]

see below



Learn the game, then watch!!!




I agree with this to an extent.

Complaining may not get you much that night, but doesn't it raise a red flag to the people reviewing the refs minute by minute ticker?

Doesn't it garner more attention from the refs union to look further into?
I have ... well I want to believe that a coach can say enough bad calls is a enough and flip a lid, get T'd over it, and then have the officials review the game to see whether the complaints were valid or not?
Then Portland makes the radar list of teams who have had bad calls go against them, so we then get a better ref crew, or refs more alert to the history of our games?

There has to be SOMETHING that can be done.
Putting refs on some irremovable "can do no wrong" pedestal, is gonna cause me to lose interest in the game.

We all make mistakes, but Refs never have to own or repair theirs. Major double standard if you ask me.

The day I let a whiny coach, fan, or spectator influence my call, is the day that I have done a disservice to this wonderful sport that we love.

I am to be impartial.

 

[Boob-No-More]

We all make mistakes, but Refs never have to own or repair theirs. Major double standard if you ask me.

This could not be further from the truth. These guys careers depend 100% on the quality of their work. I made a post a while back detailing the grading and evaluation process for the officials. EVERY single call is reviewed and the refs are graded. They also have to grade themselves and submit a report to the league office after every game, with a deep dive dive about 8 times a month.

Officials who perform well get to keep their jobs and after 7 years, if they are among the top officials in the game, they get to work the playoffs, after 14 years, the best of the best get to work the finals. The bad ones don't last long. They quietly get their assignments reduced and are not brought back the following season. It happens so quietly most fans don't even notice they are gone or remember their names.

Edit: Here's the post I was referring to.

BNM

 

[Orion Bailey]

The day I let a whiny coach, fan, or spectator influence my call, is the day that I have done a disservice to this wonderful sport that we love.

I am to be impartial.

There is more than one way to voice opposition about a recent call than whining though.

What do you do when a Coach calls out the same play several times in a row that the ref is missing, and the ref ignores it and the frustration builds to the point of explosion?

Sorry, but Refs need to own their mistakes too and if they don't and it causes a coach to flip because the ref is not looking into the plays that the coach is trying to discuss, then the ref should be fined.

So A ref can make bad calls and we have to take it, but if anyone says anything, he is whining and will be ignored?
You cant have it both ways.

Again. More cameras and less refs opinions solves the problem.

I am not a fan of automated industry, but in this instance I would gladly remove as many refs as possible for cameras that make correct calls 100% of the time and don't get bent out of shape when someone calls them out on a bad call.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Working the refs does not necessarily mean they are complaining or whining. Pointing things out or making the refs more aware of something....... can't hurt. Make up calls still happen as well.

Also you can't tell me when one team has a lot more fouls, that the refs don't often tend to "even things out" .......in a hurry.

 

[Mediocre Man]

The day I let a whiny coach, fan, or spectator influence my call, is the day that I have done a disservice to this wonderful sport that we love.

I am to be impartial.

I am strictly talking next game. I know the league looks at all this stuff. I know the refs here about also

 

[Orion Bailey]

This could not be further from the truth. These guys careers depend 100% on the quality of their work. I made a post a while back detailing the grading and evaluation process for the officials. EVERY single call is reviewed and the refs are graded. They also have to grade themselves and submit a report to the league office after every game, with a deep dive dive about 8 times a month.

Officials who perform well get to keep their jobs and after 7 years, if they are among the top officials in the game, they get to work the playoffs, after 14 years, the best of the best get to work the finals. The bad ones don't last long. They quietly get their assignments reduced and are not brought back the following season. It happens so quietly most fans don't even notice they are gone or remember their names.

BNM

I don't think that is actually true, but that would be my response to what Dviss said, if an NBA ref said the same thing.

I find it pretty judgmental and biased to just say a coach complaining is whining. So with that then any ref making bad calls thinks he is always right and superior and doesnt own it.

Cant have it both ways.
Sometimes coaches have valid complaints that refs should take heed to. And sometimes refs own their mistake.

The ump that cost a pitcher a no hitter last year went into the locker room after the game in tears and apologized to the pitcher for costing him a record book game.

What ref came into our locker room and admitted they cost us the game in Washington?

None.

This is where I say they don't own it and there is a double standard. I could care less about their job security. A job can be secure and the employee can still make mistakes. IN every profession I've been in, it has to be fixed or repaired, but not in the NBA.
In the NBA there are reviews and ratings, but no actual ownership of specifics and if there are, they aren't public enough to make a difference in opinion.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I don't think that is actually true

What part do you not think is true? Have you read the Pedowitz Report that describes the grading and evaluation procedures for NBA officials?

They most certainly are held accountable. They don't get fired for one bad call, but officials that consistently get low grades do not get their contracts renewed, and ones that do get good grades are rewarded by working the playoffs and the finals.

BNM

 

[Orion Bailey]

What part do you not think is true? Have you read the Pedowitz Report that describes the grading and evaluation procedures for NBA officials?

They most certainly are held accountable. They don't get fired for one bad call, but officials that consistently get low grades do not get their contracts renewed, and ones that do get good grades are rewarded by working the playoffs and the finals.

BNM

But working the playoffs and finals, or not getting your contract renewed is no apology to the Blazers on a specific call that cost us a game. where is the ownership of that specific game. This is what I am referring to.
Where is the statement to the public that this call was messed up and they cost Portland the game?
Where is the apology letter to the Blazers from the refs union?

You think Damian cares about some review at the end of the season when we miss the playoffs by one game that could have been ours but for a bad call?

 

[Boob-No-More]

But working the playoffs and finals, or not getting your contract renewed is no apology to the Blazers on a specific call that cost us a game. where is the ownership of that specific game. This is what I am referring to.
Where is the statement to the public that this call was messed up and they cost Portland the game?
Where is the apology letter to the Blazers from the refs union?

You think Damian cares about some review at the end of the season when we miss the playoffs by one game that could have been ours but for a bad call?

A letter of apology or an admission of blowing a call is not going to change the outcome of that game. The league it's not going to say sorry, we blew the call and give us the win.

And, if we miss the playoffs, I think Dame is professional enough and smart enough to not blame missing the playoffs on one bad call. If we miss the playoffs it will be because the team severely under-performed for months, not because of one call in one game.

At least I hope he is. I want him going into the off season realizing he needs to work on improving his defense to become a more complete player, not playing the victim card and blaming a lost season on the refs. I love Dame and think he's great, but I also acknowledge the obvious, that he needs to improve his defense to help this team make it to the next level. I believe, after this season, he realizes it too, whether or not we make the playoffs.

BNM

 

[Orion Bailey]

A letter of apology or an admission of blowing a call is not going to change the outcome of that game. The league it's not going to say sorry, we blew the call and give us the win.

And, if we miss the playoffs, I think Dame is professional enough and smart enough to not blame missing the playoffs on one bad call. If we miss the playoffs it will be because the team severely under-performed for months, not because of one call in one game.

At least I hope he is. I want him going into the off season realizing he needs to work on improving his defense to become a more complete player, not playing the victim card and blaming a lost season on the refs. I love Dame and think he's great, but I also acknowledge the obvious, that he needs to improve his defense to help this team make it to the next level. I believe, after this season, he realizes it too, whether or not we make the playoffs.

BNM

I agree with everything you said. However, it still doesn't change what the right thing to do would be.
MLB never gave the pitcher the ...perfect game it was, not a no hitter", but the ref and the MLB ump union did what they could to let it be known they F'ed up.

The point is, it doesn't matter who the Blazers played prior or after. Overachieved, underachieved, it doesn't matter.
A call was made erroneously that cost Portland a game. The position the refs portray to the [public is that they don't care and it is what it is.
Again. Where is the ownership? Refs would probably get alot more respect from both fans and players if they did this. And more tolerance from coaches.

I know I have much more respect for someone who strives for perfection but admits when he makes mistakes, than someone who thinks his shit doesn't stink.

Plus the refs have openly voiced they don't like the 2 minute reviews going public. Why?? Lack of ownership? Too much Pride? Cant handle being called out for a mistake?

Nah.. Sorry. You aren't selling me yet, and usually you do.

 

[Orion Bailey]

This could not be further from the truth. These guys careers depend 100% on the quality of their work. I made a post a while back detailing the grading and evaluation process for the officials. EVERY single call is reviewed and the refs are graded. They also have to grade themselves and submit a report to the league office after every game, with a deep dive dive about 8 times a month.

Officials who perform well get to keep their jobs and after 7 years, if they are among the top officials in the game, they get to work the playoffs, after 14 years, the best of the best get to work the finals. The bad ones don't last long. They quietly get their assignments reduced and are not brought back the following season. It happens so quietly most fans don't even notice they are gone or remember their names.

Edit: Here's the post I was referring to.

BNM

I just opened your edit. Maybe we are referring to two different things. I am referring to Morris stepping out of bounds even though replays show refs staring right down towards the floor where he was and didn't call it. Then he proceeds to make a game winning shot.

 

[gatorpops]

One solution might be to allow coaches a couple of challenges within the final 2 min, similar to football.

 

[dviss1]

There is more than one way to voice opposition about a recent call than whining though.

What do you do when a Coach calls out the same play several times in a row that the ref is missing, and the ref ignores it and the frustration builds to the point of explosion?

Sorry, but Refs need to own their mistakes too and if they don't and it causes a coach to flip because the ref is not looking into the plays that the coach is trying to discuss, then the ref should be fined.

So A ref can make bad calls and we have to take it, but if anyone says anything, he is whining and will be ignored?
You cant have it both ways.

Again. More cameras and less refs opinions solves the problem.

I am not a fan of automated industry, but in this instance I would gladly remove as many refs as possible for cameras that make correct calls 100% of the time and don't get bent out of shape when someone calls them out on a bad call.

You need a whistle. Because this post shows no perspective at all. I don't even understand what you mean by:

"What do you do when a Coach calls out the same play several times in a row that the ref is missing, and the ref ignores it and the frustration builds to the point of explosion?"

"Calls the same play"?

I could care less what plays are called.

The ref ignores what, the coach's whining?

I do that often.

"Builds to explosion"?

Not sure what you mean here either. There's a respectful way to converse. We all learned it in kindergarten.

 

[BBert]

Working the refs does not necessarily mean they are complaining or whining. Pointing things out or making the refs more aware of something....... can't hurt. Make up calls still happen as well.

Also you can't tell me when one team has a lot more fouls, that the refs don't often tend to "even things out" .......in a hurry.

I noticed a 'suspected' make-up call last night. We got called for a foul that wasn't; both Dame and Stotts 'explained' it to the refs; next time back we got away with a clear one. Funny, the fans didn't boo the gift but they did the 'missed' one.

 

[Orion Bailey]

You need a whistle. Because this post shows no perspective at all. I don't even understand what you mean by:

"What do you do when a Coach calls out the same play several times in a row that the ref is missing, and the ref ignores it and the frustration builds to the point of explosion?"

Calls the same play?

I could care less what plays are called.

The ref ignores what, the coach's whining?

I do that often.

Builds to explosion?

Not sure what you mean here either. There's a respectful way to converse. We all learned it in kindergarten.

Right, but you made a statement that insulated any coach complaining is a whiner without validity.


I didn't say calls the same play. I said calls out the same play. Meaning he is calling out to the ref the same play over and over he is missing. whether it be a player stepping out of bounds or a foul or a double dribble. The coach is POINTING these out(better choice of words) to the ref.

After several times of pointing it out and not seeing anything change, any reasonable coach will flip.

 

[dviss1]

Right, but you made a statement that insulated any coach complaining is a whiner without validity.

I never said that at all. You said it.

I simply said:

Says all the people who don't referee or consort with referees. There isn't one referee who will tell you that a whiny coach/player/spectator influenced their call.

My mentor (an NBA evaluator):

"Every coach male or female that ever coached a game is a fucking PRICK. But you gotta know how to handle your prick."

You'll give that coach an ear and maybe he/she genuinely is seeing something the referee is missing, but there's not one HS, College, or NBA referee that is making calls based upon the whines of players and coaches.

The day I let a whiny coach, fan, or spectator influence my call, is the day that I have done a disservice to this wonderful sport that we love.

I am to be impartial.

I never once said every coach that complains is a "whiner without validity".
WTF are you talking about?

 

[BBert]

I noticed a 'suspected' make-up call last night. We got called for a foul that wasn't; both Dame and Stotts 'explained' it to the refs; next time back we got away with a clear one. Funny, the fans didn't boo the gift but they did the 'missed' one.

BTW: They weren't whiny jerks about it, and it seemed to help nonethenevertheless.

 

[dviss1]

Right, but you made a statement that insulated any coach complaining is a whiner without validity.


I didn't say calls the same play. I said calls out the same play. Meaning he is calling out to the ref the same play over and over he is missing. whether it be a player stepping out of bounds or a foul or a double dribble. The coach is POINTING these out(better choice of words) to the ref.

After several times of pointing it out and not seeing anything change, any reasonable coach will flip.

There's a banner in West Linn's gym and it reads as follows:

Know your role:

1. Spectator
2. Coach
3. Player
4. Official

See, I don't tell the coach when he should call pick-and-roll. I don't tell a Coach when he should call motion. I don't tell the coach when he should call timeout. I don't tell the coach when he should change his defense to a 2-3 Zone... He knows his role... I know mine... Players know theirs. When everybody plays their role the game runs smoothly. It's when people that step outside of their role that technical fouls ensue.

See the way I run my game is that a coach has to play Jeopardy. I don't need statements. They don't work for me and never will. I need questions. Ask me a question about what I saw or didn't see. That's pretty much it and that's all. I don't entertain a coach telling me what's going on because he doesn't have the angle that I do. Nor is he calling the game both ways.

 

[Pinwheel1]

I noticed a 'suspected' make-up call last night. We got called for a foul that wasn't; both Dame and Stotts 'explained' it to the refs; next time back we got away with a clear one. Funny, the fans didn't boo the gift but they did the 'missed' one.

Exactly. The refs can't call everything, whether they see it or not. And I doubt they care who wins. But they can't help but be influenced a little by players, coaches, and to a much lesser extent....fans. It's only human nature. Terry needs to pick his fights, so when he does "discuss" things they are more apt to listen to him. But he does need to protect his players a little more than he often does.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Follow along D!

This is where Stotts needs to step up. Take that fine, which the team would pay, and complain about it. Might get him a couple calls a game, and it will build from there.

Stotts needs to step it up and get that fine. Nothing about whining here.

Lol no it won't. Complaining doesn't garner you one single thing from an official.

Complaining wont garner a thing. What else can you do other than complain? All complaints are whines???

It may not from you. I've seen it too many times. Coaches get to the podium after a game in the playoffs and complain their guy is getting no respect. Next game that guy amazingly gets more calls.

Coach goes to the podium and complains their guys aren't getting respect. Nothing about whining here....

If what you were saying was the reality then you wouldn't see coaches and players ride refs the way they do. Referees are human beings, of course they can be influenced, especially when its an elite coach like pop in their ear.

Players would ride refs. not whining to the refs. Ride the refs. Meaning bringing up the same thing again and again until it is acknowledged.

Says all the people who don't referee or consort with referees. There isn't one referee who will tell you that a whiny coach/player/spectator influenced their call.

My mentor (an NBA evaluator):

"Every coach male or female that ever coached a game is a fucking PRICK. But you gotta know how to handle your prick."

You'll give that coach an ear and maybe he/she genuinely is seeing something the referee is missing, but there's not one HS, College, or NBA referee that is making calls based upon the whines of players and coaches.

And now you bring out whiny.

No one said anything about either or, but you assumed everyone meant whiny, so I can only assume you think that anytime a coach complains, he is whining.

That is what the F I am talking about.

 

[Orion Bailey]

There's a banner in West Linn's gym and it reads as follows:

Know your role:

1. Spectator
2. Coach
3. Player
4. Official

See, I don't tell the coach when he should call pick-and-roll. I don't tell a Coach when he should call motion. I don't tell the coach when he should call timeout. I don't tell the coach when he should change his defense to a 2-3 Zone... He knows his role... I know mine... Players know theirs. When everybody plays their role the game runs smoothly. It's when people that step outside of their role that technical fouls ensue.

See the way I run my game is that a coach has to play Jeopardy. I don't need statements. They don't work for me and never will. I need questions. Ask me a question about what I saw or didn't see. That's pretty much it and that's all. I don't entertain a coach telling me what's going on because he doesn't have the angle that I do. Nor is he calling the game both ways.

Cop out. Plain and simple.
Apples to Oranges.

 

[dviss1]

Follow along D!



Stotts needs to step it up and get that fine. Nothing about whining here.



Complaining wont garner a thing. What else can you do other than complain? All complaints are whines???


Coach goes to the podium and complains their guys aren't getting respect. Nothing about whining here....



Players would ride refs. not whining to the refs. Ride the refs. Meaning bringing up the same thing again and again until it is acknowledged.



And now you bring out whiny.

No one said anything about either or, but you assumed everyone meant whiny, so I can only assume you think that anytime a coach complains, he is whining.

That is what the F I am talking about.

I have been keeping up.

All complaints aren't whines. Some are Legitimate concerns that are conveyed in a respectful manner.