The Official S2 "I've Had It With Travis Outlaw" Thread

[STOMP]

So is the contention that Outlaw is a below-average bench player or that he is overpaid? Either one I could see as rationale for being "done with him." If he's at least average for a bench player and not overpaid, how is he hurting the team?

I think Outlaw has lots of flaws. Those flaws are what prevent him from being a really good player. When you combine both his strengths and weaknesses, you have an above average reserve, IMO. And his salary isn't large, so he's not hurting the team's payroll.

So, yeah...his mistakes frustrate me. His great plays cheer me up. Overall, I don't (and never have) seen him as a good starter for this team, but I think the criticisms of him, a bench player, are a bit overdone. If he were the team's "star" and paid like it, I'd understand much better.

Far too logical a take for an emotion driven issue. If I've learned anything in 10 years of posting with you and a few others here it's that some people need to lash out. Like you I think it's as tired and silly a conversation as when it was led by Terrible and Jackie Jackal but new posters have stepped in with their daily need for a designated scapegoat to blame rain or shine. I'm with the OP for stickying this thread so that those posters can do their thing in one spot instead of 12 different threads... maybe we could make it so MIXUM's posts are automatically migrated there too???

STOMP

 

[BrianFromWA]

My contention is that Travis is, for the most part, not a good use of 30 minutes a game.

By bringing up salaries, I'm not sure what you're looking for. He makes more than everyone except Joel, Greg, LMA and Blake. (And RLEC if you're counting that). By saying he's a bench player, what do you mean? That he doesn't start the game? So Batum has more expectations because he starts over Travis?

I put a lot of emphasis on Travis for a few reasons:
One, he gets the 4th-most minutes per game. Ergo, he has more opportunity to help and hurt the team than anyone except Blake, Roy and LMA. If he was getting Batum's 15 minutes at the start of the halves, or even was just pulled when he isn't interested in playing the right way, it wouldn't be so much of an issue. But he's rarely pulled for boneheadedness (though others say that Nate's probably telling him to play like that, since he's not benched for doing it). It's a little comical that it's the same MO that Jack played with last year -- if Nate just pulled him when he wasn't playing well he might still be here.
Two: His "averages" are misleading. If he was just a consistently average bench player, maybe you'd have an argument. But he's not consistent. Let's look at rebounding, which is something I think most in here would say Travis could/should be good at, if not excel. He's down 0.8 rpg in 0.1 MORE minutes per game than last year. But some will say he's rebounding ok. But let's take a look. He has (in 27mpg) EIGHT games where he has 2 rebounds or less. He has 6 of 6 or above. Other SFs with more rebounds and less minutes: Moon, Ariza, Kleiza, Nocioni.

Or you could look at his shooting average. He's shooting a very respectable 41% from 3. But wasn't he shooting 60% or something earlier this year? Some clamoring for him to be in the 3pt contest. How do you go from 60% to 41%? One way is to be 12-41 in December (and yesterday). That's 29%, boys and girls. Travis shoots 86% of his shots as jumpers outside of 12 feet, with an eFG% of 45%, which has decreased a lot to get to current levels. If and when he deigns to enter into the Inner Sanctum of the 12foot area, his eFG% goes up to 70%. Nate tells him to go inside, and stop taking bad shots, but Travis still does it.(google Jason Quick Travis Outlaw) He's fallen in love with hearing his jumper splash through the net. Unfortunately, it isn't happening that much anymore.

Then there are those that say his defense is better...but his blocks are down, steals are down, he gives up a net PER of -3.3 to his SF counterpart (though when he play PF he has a new 0.7). He routinely loses his assignment, and his assignment has generally been really good 3pt shooters.

Meh, I'm done typing this one. If you need more, I'll post again. All this math is driving the emotion out of my brain, I guess.

 

[Minstrel]

My contention is that Travis is, for the most part, not a good use of 30 minutes a game.

Okay. That's a far sight from being done with him, or the implications that he doesn't have any value to the team. I think he's a good use of 20-30 minutes. In other words, a reserve role. If Webster weren't injured, I assume that's the minute range he'd be in.

By bringing up salaries, I'm not sure what you're looking for.

Whether he's paid too much for the production he provides. If he is, I can see criticizing him as hurting the team. Considering his salary is quite low and his production is decent (neither very good nor scrubbish), it doesn't seem like he hurts the team in terms of salary structure. (Comparing him to the other salaries on the team isn't terribly relevant...since so many players are on rookie deals, they aren't being paid market value. Them currently, and temporarily, being fantastic bargains doesn't make Outlaw overpaid.)

Since he's not below average for a bench player, he's not wasting a roster spot, either. So I really don't see what the argument would be for him hurting the team.

If you don't feel he's hurting the team or the team would be better off without him (just gone, not traded for a different, useful player), my post wasn't directed at you.

 

[oldmangrouch]

BrianFromWA:

I get what you are saying, but most of it comes down to one single point: Travis is a reserve playing starter's minutes. Bah-toom isn't ready, Webster is hurt, and KP hasn't made pulled the trigger on a trade. None of that is Outlaw's fault.

And yes, salary is a relevant consideration. Outlaw is a bundle of good points and bad points - which is why he is (by NBA standards) low paid. If he was the player you want him to be, he would be making 3 times as much.

 

[STOMP]

Okay. That's a far sight from being done with him, or the implications that he doesn't have any value to the team. I think he's a good use of 20-30 minutes. In other words, a reserve role. If Webster weren't injured, I assume that's the minute range he'd be in.

Travis is averaging just under 27 minutes a game. He doesn't start. He gets paid accordingly and could be cut outright by the team if they chose to at the end of this year or they could keep him for another year at a big 4M. I don't see him as the answer or the problem in the question of who is the starter at SF. Same goes for Martell. I've some hopes for Batum.

All 3 players have very tradable contracts and should be included in discussions to upgrade either the PG or SF spots

STOMP

 

[Minstrel]

I don't see him as the answer or the problem in the question of who is the starter at SF. Same goes for Martell. I've some hopes for Batum.

That's exactly where I am, too. I'm no believer in Webster, either, as I've said in other threads. Batum is my hope for the future.

 

[MrJayremmie]

um because the poster mentioned that looking at the box score you'd think bayless played horribly and they'd be wrong. the subject was bayless not sergio. for the record, yes sergio played poorly but you ignored my part about everyone but joel and rudy playing well. selective reading is fun on the internet.

btw, jumping to pass is something you learn not to do in the 3rd grade, yet we have two guys off the bench who do it quite a bit.

The subject was Outlaw, and you were trying to change it to feed your Sergio fetish.

And the boxscore doesn't tell the whole story. Bayless def. played better than the boxscore said, and he played better than Sergio also.

And you were the first one to bring up Bayless in this thread... trying to find a cheap shot somewhere i suppose.

 

[bigbailes]

the guy brought up the fact that the boxscore doesn't tell the whole story, i agree it doesn't but to imply that bayless played better than the box is incorrect, imo. i simply brought up the fact that bayless and TO play a similar, no ball movement 1 on 5 style and that they shouldn't be on the court at the same time.

as for a sergio fetish, i don't have one, i can enjoy watching whoever is out there in the scarlett and black.

 

[Nikolokolus]

the guy brought up the fact that the boxscore doesn't tell the whole story, i agree it doesn't but to imply that bayless played better than the box is incorrect, imo. i simply brought up the fact that bayless and TO play a similar, no ball movement 1 on 5 style and that they shouldn't be on the court at the same time.

as for a sergio fetish, i don't have one, i can enjoy watching whoever is out there in the scarlett and black.

I guess his two assists in limited minutes was a mirage? Besides, SOMEBODY needed to attack the rim last night, if nobody else was going to take it to the rack why not Bayless? He got himself some good looks, they just didn't fall.

 

[MrJayremmie]

the guy brought up the fact that the boxscore doesn't tell the whole story, i agree it doesn't but to imply that bayless played better than the box is incorrect, imo. i simply brought up the fact that bayless and TO play a similar, no ball movement 1 on 5 style and that they shouldn't be on the court at the same time.

as for a sergio fetish, i don't have one, i can enjoy watching whoever is out there in the scarlett and black.

He was right. Bayless came in, in the first half and gave us a shot inthe arm getting to the rim and driving and kicking.

And IDK what game you are watching, but Bayless has rarely if ever gone 1 on 5 in the reg. season. This isn't summer league. The ball movement is no different w/ Bayless in there, he moves the ball like any of our other players.

 

[bigbailes]

funny cause watching him i immediatly thought of his summer performances. idk what you are watching, maybe it's not the same game.

and yes he had two assists, for the season it's 12A to 14TO's. he isn't a PG and will never likely be a true PG. which is fine if he's playing with Roy. instead he's a SG in a PG body who likes to create for himself and dishes only when necessary. in college he averaged 4A in 36 minutes of play, he's a SG pure and simple.