The Official S2 NBA Lockout Thread! (1 Viewer)

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They got close, I think we could get a deal done in next several "daze", owners did some givin and pressure is on players IMO. Kobe and Garnett apparently being so adamant is IMO dumb and I think the average players may not think the same as they do. Would be really stupid to get that close and lose perhaps at least a few months of the season.


If my math is correct, 17 games is the number that the players will come out behind on money issues. If the players miss 17 games, they will have lost this labor negotiation because there is no way for them to ever make that money up
 
They got close, I think we could get a deal done in next several "daze", owners did some givin and pressure is on players IMO. Kobe and Garnett apparently being so adamant is IMO dumb and I think the average players may not think the same as they do. Would be really stupid to get that close and lose perhaps at least a few months of the season.

I agree. However listening to the whole press conference last night on NBA TV. Silver kept emphasing that there were other issues that need to be discussed even if the BRI split was aggreed upon. Not sure what those issues are, so it is hard to know how close they really are. But it sounds close.
 
Wow, the owners capitulated but the players still refuse. No hard cap, no non guaranteed contracts, no amnesty clause.... and the players turned them down flat.

I never thought I'd see that.
 
Wow, the owners capitulated but the players still refuse. No hard cap, no non guaranteed contracts, no amnesty clause.... and the players turned them down flat.

I never thought I'd see that.

I did not hear or see the "no amnesty clause" part, are you sure on this?
 
I am just talking about today. And I think they gained some momentum in the public opinion battle. Which in the long run is good for motivating the players to make a deal.

It goes without saying that they have all had their heads up their asses the rest of the summer.

You don't get it, the "public opinion battle" means fuck all in this situation. The leauge's popularity taking a hit damages both sides equally.
 
The Super Seven agents are working on details of a conference call this afternoon to discuss CBA, sources tell @CBSSports.
 
Call would be among agents who wrote to clients over the weekend: Tellem, Duffy, Bartelstein, Fegan, Schwartz, Rose and Thomas.
 
SpearsNBAYahoo............

One prominent agent: "Stern & Billy will talk over the weekend without antics and get down to it."
 
Broussard...........

Source says Rip Hamilton told his agent Leon Rose he's upset Rose participated in letter, which is perceived by many as anti-union.
 
Source adds that Rip told Rose he'll leave & take other players with him if Rose doesn't leave the "anti-union" group.
 
http://ht.cdn.turner.com/si/nba/NBPAletter.pdf

The owners, on the other hand, have been in a far different place. Prior to yesterday, they had stood on an offer averaging 46% of BRI, rolling back this year's salaries and benefits to $2 billion flat and growing very slowly over ten years. Yesterday, they hoped to exchange back and forth offers in an effort to bring our proposal as far down as possible. They began the day offering an increase of just over one point -- to an average of 47%. They characterized the proposal as a 50-50 split, but with a new $350 million expense deduction, their offer would actually result in the players receiving only 47% of current BRI.) This proposal would reduce our salaries and benefits in each of the next two seasons before allowing salaries to grow modestly over the next 10 years. We informed them, in no uncertain terms, that such an offer was unacceptable, and that we would not engage in this type of horse trading. We reminded them that we had already moved a significant way from our current 57% and would take a stand until they agreed to a fair deal.

We held several small group sessions, in which we each explored different scenarios that we thought our respective sides might consider. During those talks, the owners suggested that they might consider a BRI split likely to yield the players 50% of current BRI. After seriously considering whether we should proceed down this path, our group determined not to do so. Recognizing all the owners' arguments about the state of the business and the condition of the economy, in our view, the owners can and should share more of the record revenues our players generate. Reducing our share of BRI by 7 points to 50% -- a level we have not received since the early 1990's -- is simply not a fair split. We refused to back down. As we have done since the beginning, we again indicated a willingness to compromise, and asked the owners to do the same. They refused.
 
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sam_amick............

Also interesting re: @Chris_Broussard tweets about Rip Hamilton. Rival agent says Rip has significant influence on many of Rose's clients.
 
This whole de-certification thing by the agents reminds me something Ari Gold would do.
 
The NBPA sent a letter to its players on Wednesday to update them on labor talks.

"Yesterday, the owners gave us an opportunity to back down," wrote Derek Fisher and Billy Hunter. "We refused.

Hunter reminds players have have offered owners a giveback of $185 million per year, which is worth $1.1 billion over six years.

"Reducing our share of BRI by seven points to 50%, a level we have not received since the early 1990s, is not a fair split."

No further meetings are currently scheduled.

"The clear message we have received from the players, and the one we will heed, is not to back down."

Via Adrian Wojnarowski/Yahoo! Sports (via Twitter)


Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/215877/Union_Letter_We_Refused_To_Back_Down#ixzz1Zw0r89XZ
 
Jared Jeffries was really optimistic on radio that a deal could get done this week. He mentioned that there could be a difference of about $120-150 mil annually.

That works out to like 4-5 mil per team. Do guys like PA, or Cuban, or Buss really give a shit about that?

Link: http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=7063282&s=espn
 
Otoh, they would lose about ~$200 mil total by locking out the exhibition games.

Maybe I'm being naiive here, but this doesn't work out.
 
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I still say it takes 52-48 for the players to get it done. Can't wait to hear if the owners will get anything out of this like amnesty, Bird rights, contract length and guarantees etc
 
Source: Weekend Could Produce 51-49 Split


The NBA and NBPA, according to sources, could land on a split of 51 percent of BRI to players-49 percent to owners this weekend, down from the 57 percent that players received under the last collective-bargaining agreement.

In Tuesday’s negotiating session, the league floated an idea for a compromise with a 50-50 split of BRI.

Via Sporting News


Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/215887/Source_Weekend_Could_Produce_51_49_Split#ixzz1ZwddSoIx
 
Jeffries in that interview above said a 51(players)- 49(owners) could get the deal done.
 
Not to be a downer

But Silver said yesterday that the split is just one of many differences between the two parties. They're not close on other issues as well(he didn't specify).
 
Broussard.........

Agents have gone dark, not talking about today's conference call. Mum's the word from them tonight.
 
'Super Seven' Agents Ready To Help Union
Oct 06, 2011 11:24 AM EDT


Sources say Arn Tellum, Bill Duffy, Dan Fegan, Jeff Schwartz, Leon Rose, Henry Thomas and Mark Bartelstein, the agents who issued a "warning letter" to their clients, held a conference call on Wednesday.

A source said the tone of Wednesday's call was far less militant and anti-union than previous discussions. According to sources, the agents are focused on how they can best help union chief Billy Hunter get a fair deal for the players.

This group of agents had been strong advocates of decertification of the union, but they believe the time to do so has passed.

Via Chris Broussard/ESPN


Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/215893/Super_Seven_Agents_Ready_To_Help_Union#ixzz1a1RLe0PF
 
My boy EWT just sent me this........

By Chris Sheridan
NEW YORK — “It demonstrates the potential for more movement on our part.”
Those words came out of the mouth of NBA deputy commissioner Adam Silver on Tuesday after the owners offered the players a 50-50 split of revenues. So although some are writing that the players will never get an offer like that again, I’ll take the word of Silver over the word of a fellow blogissist.
There is a fair chance there will be contact between the league office and the players association today, if not for a brief sitdown (the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur begins at sundown, shortening the workday), then to set the table for a final round of negotiations to bring an end to the lockout before Monday — the date commissioner David Stern has set as the deadline to save the scheduled Nov. 1 start of the regular season.
To properly appreciate how eager Stern is to get a deal done, consider this: When he knocked on the door where the players were caucusing Tuesday and upped his offer from 47 percent to 50 percent, he moved further in the space of one minute than he had over the course of the entire summer. I still maintain that if Stern had made the 50-50 offer before the sides separated to caucus, the deal would have been done by now. Moving from 46 to 47 percent, as he did, was a slap in the face to the players (especially with a hothead like Kevin Garnett in the room) and left them predisposed to react angrily toward whatever words were the next to come out of Stern’s mouth. It was a tactical error on the commissioner’s part.
SheridanHoops.com has learned that the players’ most recent offer requested a 52.4 percent share of revenues in the first year of a six-year deal, rising gradually to 54 percent by Year 6 and averaging out at 53 percent.
So the sides are not 2 or 3 percentage points apart, they are 2.4 percentage points apart — at least in terms of Year One, or to use Ken Berger’s math, they are $80 million apart in a business that took in $4.2 billion in revnues last year. That is a bridgeable gap – especially when taking Silver’s aforementioned quote into account.
So I’ll say it again: The deal will get done, and no regular season games will be lost. That has been my prediction all along, and I ain’t budging. I’ll leave the budging to the guys in the negotiating room.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk..... Cause I'm a balla'!
 
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SI.com's view of things........




Revenue split will determine NBA’s fate
2011 LOCKOUT, COLLECTIVE BARGAINING AGREEMENT | COMMENTS

If the players' union and league don't reach a new collective bargaining agreement by Monday, the NBA will cancel the first two weeks of the regular season. (AP)

Something big is going happen within the next few days. The NBA and players’ union are either going to shake hands on the general parameters of a new collective bargaining agreement, or the league on Monday will cancel the first two weeks of the regular season, a step that would cost the players about $165 million in salary and the league hundreds of millions in revenue.

We are already at the point where starting the season on time (Nov. 1) and playing a full 82 games will be tricky, since the league could need as much as a month to finalize the agreement, conduct free agency and get teams ready to play. It might be possible for the league to squeeze it all into three weeks, or to somehow delay the start of the season a week or two and still fit in all 82 games. The latter scenario would require either compressing the schedule a bit or pushing back the start of the playoffs and making up time by reducing lay-offs between games — or some combination of all of those things. Changing the schedule like that is tricky, considering NBA arenas have other things booked for nights when the home team is off or away. But while the Monday deadline seems hard, there are ways to avoid the cancellation of games if the sides are close enough to that magic handshake by then.

The question, of course, is: Will they be close enough?

The encouraging part is that the lone remaining sticking point is money — how to split up the nearly $4 billion in basketball-related income the NBA brings in every year, a pie that will grow as the NBA’s popularity grows. This is not to say the two sides have agreed on the precise elements of the salary cap, the luxury tax and all the complicated rules that govern how and when players become free agents, get traded and move around the league. The horse-trading on that stuff continues, and the pendulum swings in concert with the revenue split. But sources close to the talks have stressed over the last few days that the discussions on those system issues have been friendly and fruitful, leaving those in the know optimistic that when the revenue split is settled, everything else could fall into place quickly.

As for the split, we left off Tuesday with the league having informally floated either a straight 50-50 split or a similar system in which players would be guaranteed 49 percent of all basketball-related income, with the possibility of getting up to 51 percent, depending on a few variables. The players countered with an informal offer that would guarantee them 51 percent of basketball-related income, with the possibility of grabbing up to 53 percent. Again: These are informal offers the sides brought up in small side discussions. In formal terms, the players have stuck to 53 percent, while the owners have put on the table a proposal that would give the players 47 percent.

The formal gap is huge; the informal one is small. Each percentage point the players lose represents about $40 million shifting from their wallets to the owners’ wallets every season — and that number will grow as revenues jump. If you take the most optimistic view of those informal offers, the two sides are really only two percentage points apart, which amounts to $80 million a year initially and as much as $900 million or so over the course of a 10-year deal. But one source close to the talks said the two sides aren’t quite viewing things that way yet. Even though the dueling informal offers both include that 51 percent figure, making it an obvious magic number, one source said that the two sides are now looking more at the extreme ends of their respective offers — 49 percent and 53 percent. That amounts to a $160 million gap in the first year, something like $1.6 billion over 10 years and about $1.1 billion over seven years.

That’s a lot of money, and it feels like a lot to players, since they were guaranteed a whopping 57 percent of basketball-related income in the last CBA — a deal that was viewed at the time as a massive win for the owners, by the way. The players have been at least 53 percent for the last 28 years, and they have spent the last two years watching the league try to cut their share first below 40 percent, and then even on Tuesday as the cancellation deadline approached, all the way to 46 and then finally 47 percent. You can understand why they were not in the mood to jump at a 50-50 offer on Tuesday, a stance union president Derek Fisher and executive director Billy Hunter reiterated emphatically Wednesday in a letter to players.

That 50-50 split may be the best deal the players can get, at least in a timely fashion, and SI.com’s Sam Amick is right that the rank-and-file — some of whom appear just fine with a 50-50 deal — deserve Hunter’s ear now. The phrase “timely fashion” there is key. As Larry Coon and Tim Donahue pointed out on Thursday, if the players decide to sit out games in order to get a better deal, they will have lost more in aggregate salary — about $800 million — by mid-December than the total salary gap over six years between a settlement that involves a 50-50 split and an on-time start to this season, and one that involves a 53 percent split in the players’ favor and a 2011-12 season that starts sometime past that mid-December point.

In other words, the players might have leverage now, given that lots of owners are happy with the state of the things and would like the season to start on time. But that leverage is fleeting and fluid, and if the two sides can hit that 51 percent mark this weekend, we could get a positive announcement late Sunday or early Monday.

Going down to 51 percent or 50 percent would anger a lot of powerful agents, seven of whom wrote a letter on Monday urging the players to stay firm at 52 percent and push for more. The agents got a lot of flak for that, but they are just protecting the interests of the players and doing their best to make sure their clients understand exactly what is happening here. The only disingenuous thing about that letter was the agents’ attempt to paint the 52 percent split as having the same impact as a hard-team-by-team salary cap.

The players’ union is dead set against the latter, arguing it would mean the end of guaranteed contracts and solid mid-level salaries, since teams will stress cap flexibility above all else. They’re probably right, and they have stood fast on the principle that player salaries should rise and fall — but mostly rise — with the league’s overall revenues via a percentage share system.

Cutting that share to 52 percent is a blow, but it is not the same thing as instituting a hard cap, and for the agents to paint the two as congruent represents a scare tactic amid an otherwise fair letter. In any case, we’ve yet to hear from a single player who has declared he will follow the wishes of agent when it comes time to vote. We have no evidence that the agents are powerful enough to derail a deal.

And a deal is there to be had. It will be difficult, but it is there, because after two years, we’re down to the money.
 

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