Politics The Postal Service, Voting, and Covid

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TorturedBlazerFan said:
I guess I should have been more clear, I have people who I trust who are Democrats and some that are Republicans, I think you knew that's what I meant though...
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I was being sarcastic but I think you knew what I meant as well
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
You can hate republicans and Trump and champion the Lincoln project or whatever you'd like I'm not stopping you. Nor am I campaigning against mail-in voting. I'm anti-Democrats and anti-Republicans in the colloquial sense of the elites who run them. I'd agree our government has failed us.
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I'm not championing the Lincoln project ....you probably need to see my political views steeped in hate, rage, whatever.....you're wrong though...I have children and grandchildren I give a shit about...that's my political base...and I'm proud to speak out against what I see as abject corruption and division....it's gone beyond rhetoric....we've lost our grip on global diplomacy and national unity under the current administration.....that's what we're dealing with....Trump and his partisan senate majority...I didn't make that happen but I'll sure as hell call it out when it goes off the rails and in my view....it's completely off the rails
 
wizenheimer said:
but, take a look at those links and analyze what they are really saying

the first is from a right wing think tank, and that think tank is one of the main go-to sources of propaganda for the R's when they try and justify voter suppression. I know that because I've seen them cited repeatedly by people like Kris Kobach and other right wing advocates of voter suppression; and I've been tracking this for years.

For chirssakes that fucking think tank was founded by Steve Bannon, and Peter Schweizer , also from Breitbart...lol. Why the hell would anyone accept their "analysis" on face value?

And that 'report' they printed is slippery as hell. They make a big deal about using buzzwords and numbers that sound large, but when you follow the train a little further you end up with much much smaller numbers, and a large percentage of those numbers are unconfirmed

for instance, they say they found 7700 cases of 'likely' duplicate voting, but the reality is they only found 1200 cases of "confirmed" duplicate voting....out of 128M votes cast. In case you're wondering, that's .00009%. LOL.

they say they found 15,000 cases of 'illegal' addresses like PO boxes. How many of those cases were due to people not knowing those were invalid addresses. And how many of them actually voted and did any of those votes count, or were they all disqualified because of the addresses. That seems extremely likely and that's the system working, not failing; but you wouldn't know that if you were buying the tone of the supposed report

or that they found 1.8 million cases of deceased on voting rolls. There's almost no evidence at all there is any significant level of dead people voting...or of people voting in place of dead people. But doesn't that 1.8M number sound huge!! And, just how quickly should state election divisions remove dead people from rolls? Shouldn't they wait until they receive confirmation of death? How long does that take? I'd wager there's a much higher incidence of voters being declared ineligible because they have wrongly been listed as dead, that fraud from these registrations

That isn't a report at all...it's just an anecdotal collection of few small numbers and giant truckloads of innuendo and horseshit designed as cover for voter suppression. But more than that is the implication that this stuff is new. It's not; these are age-old issues, and none of it has undermined democracy like the republican jihad of voter suppression has

your other link was about 10 convictions for voter fraud in Oregon....out of over 2 million votes cast.

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certainly, you and I have different perspectives on this....and different biases I guess. You seem to find a basis for a 'pox-on-both-houses-both-sides-do-it' narrative that fits you overall view on things political

I view it as further evidence that the R's are using bullshit as the justification for massive voter suppression. And now, they are using the same bullshit as a loose justification for destroying the postal service. They have no interest at all in the integrity of elections...nothing could be more obvious.

think about it TB...you used a report from Steve Bannon as a justification of your position...really?
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Well here's a few things. I didn't really bring up voter-fraud. That was brought up to me. I have never made a big deal of it. I posted some links sure because I'm of the opinion and view that I don't like Democrats and Republicans (again the elites for the most part). That report isn't justification for my opinion on the subject of Democrats and Republicans, that justification is viewing politics my entire adult life and an opinion formed over that.
I've posted some links on Mail-in voting in other states and some issues they have had in the primaries. Which maybe they'll be fixed and fine by the time the election gets here in November. I haven't argued against mail-in voting though, just answered questions when they were directed at me.
 
riverman said:
It doesn't matter who brings up a topic....but if we engage in it we open that door
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Sure, but don't put words in my mouth about that topic and pretend I'm making a big deal over something I am not, or tell me I'm making arguments that I'm not. Which is what happened, I made a post not even about voter fraud and then was asked a series of questions about voter fraud and the implications were that I was making arguments that I never made.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Sure, but don't put words in my mouth about that topic and pretend I'm making a big deal over something I am not, or tell me I'm making arguments that I'm not. Which is what happened, I made a post not even about voter fraud and then was asked a series of questions about voter fraud and the implications were that I was making arguments that I never made.
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I'm not telling you to do, say, write or think anything...you however are repeating yourself over and over again about voter fraud not being your topic....I expressed my opinion...that doesn't mean I require an argument from you if you differ from my opinion....it just means I have one..you're welcome to be apolitical as far as I'm concerned...or voice any opinion...to me the topic is interesting enough to engage...if it's frustrating for you to do that you don't have to.
 
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riverman said:
I'm not championing the Lincoln project ....you probably need to see my political views steeped in hate, rage, whatever.....you're wrong though...I have children and grandchildren I give a shit about...that's my political base...and I'm proud to speak out against what I see as abject corruption and division....it's gone beyond rhetoric....we've lost our grip on global diplomacy and national unity under the current administration.....that's what we're dealing with....Trump and his partisan senate majority...I didn't make that happen but I'll sure as hell call it out when it goes off the rails and in my view....it's completely off the rails
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You're completely free to feel however you want to, and have whatever views you would like to have.
You can be vehemently anti-republican (sorry I used the word hate), haven't ever implied you couldn't.
 
Well, we can talk about the USPS and that crap instead of my political views. I'm not frustrated I can answer questions, or whatever, I'm not looking for validation on my opinion's lol.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Well here's a few things. I didn't really bring up voter-fraud. That was brought up to me. I have never made a big deal of it. I posted some links sure because I'm of the opinion and view that I don't like Democrats and Republicans (again the elites for the most part). That report isn't justification for my opinion on the subject of Democrats and Republicans, that justification is viewing politics my entire adult life and an opinion formed over that.
I've posted some links on Mail-in voting in other states and some issues they have had in the primaries. Which maybe they'll be fixed and fine by the time the election gets here in November. I haven't argued against mail-in voting though, just answered questions when they were directed at me.
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nope....not going to let that pass

you posted those two links in support of the implication that Democrats cheated in the last election. "Well, there's a really high likelihood of it"...your words. Neither one of those links offered a shred of evidence of Democratic cheating. In fact they offered no evidence of significant voter fraud

kind of hard for me to interpret intent but I'm capable of following a discussion. Maybe you really are moderate in your views. But when you keep posting right-wing talking points, the moderation is hard for me to see....sorry man

now, the majority of the posting here could be considered left wing, so I'll allow for a certain level of over-reaction the other direction. Pushback hyperbole and lord knows, I use hyperbole myself. But you might want to avoid citing Steve Bannon as a source
 
wizenheimer said:
nope....not going to let that pass

you posted those two links in support of the implication that Democrats cheated in the last election. "Well, there's a really high likelihood of it"...your words. Neither one of those links offered a shred of evidence of Democratic cheating. In fact they offered no evidence of significant voter fraud

kind of hard for me to interpret intent but I'm capable of following a discussion. Maybe you really are moderate in your views. But when you keep posting right-wing talking points, the moderation is hard for me to see....sorry man

now, the majority of the posting here could be considered left wing, so I'll allow for a certain level of over-reaction the other direction. Pushback hyperbole and lord knows, I use hyperbole myself. But you might want to avoid citing Steve Bannon as a source
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They were evidence that cheating happens. If I think people cheat and democrats are people, I think democrats cheat. You might be right about showing "significant" amounts of it, but I wasn't asked to provide evidence of significant voter fraud either.
I think the only reason you think of it is right-wing talking points is that the Overton window is so slammed to the left here that anything 'moderate' seems right-wing to most of the people here.
I don't know how much they cheat, but I certainly don't think Democrats are a bastion of purity when it comes to election antics, nor do I think republicans are.
 
LOL...now we have Maris, of all people, defining what 'fact' is
 
wizenheimer said:
nope....not going to let that pass

you posted those two links in support of the implication that Democrats cheated in the last election. "Well, there's a really high likelihood of it"...your words. Neither one of those links offered a shred of evidence of Democratic cheating. In fact they offered no evidence of significant voter fraud

kind of hard for me to interpret intent but I'm capable of following a discussion. Maybe you really are moderate in your views. But when you keep posting right-wing talking points, the moderation is hard for me to see....sorry man

now, the majority of the posting here could be considered left wing, so I'll allow for a certain level of over-reaction the other direction. Pushback hyperbole and lord knows, I use hyperbole myself. But you might want to avoid citing Steve Bannon as a source
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Frankly, I've taken several political tests and grade out similarly on all of them as sort of socially to the left, economically to the right and mostly aligned with moderate libertarian view points. So sure those are kinda silly I suppose but they seem to be pretty consistent. So, for whatever that's worth. :dunno:
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
They were evidence that cheating happens. If I think people cheat and democrats are people, I think democrats cheat. You might be right about showing "significant" amounts of it, but I wasn't asked to provide evidence of significant voter fraud either.
I think the only reason you think of it is right-wing talking points is that the Overton window is so slammed to the left here that anything 'moderate' seems right-wing to most of the people here.
I don't know how much they cheat, but I certainly don't think Democrats are a bastion of purity when it comes to election antics, nor do I think republicans are.
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Actually I asked you. You just never answered it. Another issue is, you seem to classify all cheating as the same. You know the old "they all do it" mantra. That can be a cop out of not wanting to make a decision as it's just easier to lump all politicians into the same category equally and only separated by party affiliation. It would be like me saying all teenagers steal and compare equally to the teen that robs a gas station with a gun and another one robbing the same store of a candy bar. They both stole but nowhere even close to being comparable.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
They were evidence that cheating happens. If I think people cheat and democrats are people, I think democrats cheat. You might be right about showing "significant" amounts of it, but I wasn't asked to provide evidence of significant voter fraud either.
I think the only reason you think of it is right-wing talking points is that the Overton window is so slammed to the left here that anything 'moderate' seems right-wing to most of the people here.
I don't know how much they cheat, but I certainly don't think Democrats are a bastion of purity when it comes to election antics, nor do I think republicans are.
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"You shot that guy!"
"Well, lots of people are murderers. It's naive to think I'm the only one."

barfo
 
CupWizier said:
Actually I asked you. You just never answered it. Another issue is, you seem to classify all cheating as the same. You know the old "they all do it" mantra. That can be a cop out of not wanting to make a decision as it's just easier to lump all politicians into the same category equally and only separated by party affiliation. It would be like me saying all teenagers steal and compare equally to the teen that robs a gas station with a gun and another one robbing the same store of a candy bar. They both stole but nowhere even close to being comparable.
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Oh, I think I've made a choice it's just not a popular one with Republicans or Democrats.
 
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TorturedBlazerFan said:
They were evidence that cheating happens. If I think people cheat and democrats are people, I think democrats cheat. You might be right about showing "significant" amounts of it, but I wasn't asked to provide evidence of significant voter fraud either.
I think the only reason you think of it is right-wing talking points is that the Overton window is so slammed to the left here that anything 'moderate' seems right-wing to most of the people here.
I don't know how much they cheat, but I certainly don't think Democrats are a bastion of purity when it comes to election antics, nor do I think republicans are.
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have registered Democrats voted illegally. yes. Have registered Republicans voted illegally yes

but that's a dodge, IMO

when the discussion moves to Democrats or Repugnicans using the levers of their political power to influence election integrity, this is not a 'both-sides-do-it' situation. Only one side has engaged in a decades long jihad of suppressing opposition votes. And that has resulted in millions of suppressed votes. A universe of difference from the .0025% level of actual voting fraud. That is the reality whether you admit it or not

I honestly don't know why it's so hard for you to admit that what the R's have done to election integrity over the last 20 years is exponentially worse than anything the D's have done. You can hate Democrats for a variety of reasons, some legitimate, but it's just not credible, at all, to say there is Party equivalence in election interference
 
wizenheimer said:
have registered Democrats voted illegally. yes. Have registered Republicans voted illegally yes

but that's a dodge, IMO

when the discussion moves to Democrats or Repugnicans using the levers of their political power to influence election integrity, this is not a 'both-sides-do-it' situation. Only one side has engaged in a decades long jihad of suppressing opposition votes. And that has resulted in millions of suppressed votes. A universe of difference from the .0025% level of actual voting fraud. That is the reality whether you admit it or not

I honestly don't know why it's so hard for you to admit that what the R's have done to election integrity over the last 20 years is exponentially worse than anything the D's have done. You can hate Democrats for a variety of reasons, but it's just not credible, at all, to say there is Party equivalence in election interference
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https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-democrats-suppress-the-vote/
https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/19/opinions/democrats-need-reform-new-york-primary-weaver/index.html
https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2020/07/27/the-voter-suppression-myth/
https://www.thedailybeast.com/democrats-hate-gerrymanderingexcept-when-they-get-to-do-it
https://thefulcrum.us/worst-gerrymandering-districts-example/1-beside-lake-erie
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/12/14/18140773/new-jersey-democrats-gerrymandering-2018
https://www.newsweek.com/voter-frau...rats-want-steal-2020-election-opinion-1509180
https://nypost.com/2018/12/20/an-election-hacked-by-democrats/

Seriously though if you actually look for it, you can find articles, statistics, studies, etc all over the place about the bullcrap the Democrats and Republicans pull in terms of elections. It's not my fault that people can't use search engines to go find stuff. Lots of opinions out there.
Just because left-wing media is constantly saying that it's just republicans doesn't mean it's true, and I'm going to venture to guess that you and most of the people here spend much more time with left-wing media than entertaining possibilities outside of it.
There are right-wing, left-wing, sorta 'centers' websites. All linked above, and literally thousands of others if you actually go out and look for it.

I don't know who's "worse" at it, but if it makes you feel better say the Republicans than fine, you can say that.
The funny thing is about 60% of American's actually agree with me about their concerns with the November elections, because they all think the 'other side' is going to cheat. I'm really just agreeing with both.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/05/election-2020-trust-voters-doubt/612100/

The thing is you could post a million websites and crap back at me about how evil Republicans are, and all you or I are doing is playing into our own confirmation bias' and dismissing information we don't like because it doesn't fit.

Edit: And I did post sites that show republicans do bad stuff too, it's not about painting democrats as the 'bad' guys.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
most of the people here spend much more time with left-wing media than entertaining possibilities outside of it.
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I think this seems to be your issue more than the current political dilema we're having heading into this election or you wouldn't be deep diving for anti democratic editorials for "I told you so" fuel....maybe try thinking of people here as individuals and leave the left/ right divisive tags at the door....I base my criticism on the words spoken by the people who are in power...not so much what is written about them but what they actually say and do.....we have a republican led govt and I simply do not like what they are doing or how they are doing it ....you can read every periodical on the internet and it doesn't change anything concerning right or wrong.....which is what we should focus on...not left or right. We are in an election campaign with a right wing president who's been impeached by Congress.....that's not CNN spin...it's a fact...
 
riverman said:
I think this seems to be your issue more than the current political dilema we're having heading into this election or you wouldn't be deep diving for anti democratic editorials for "I told you so" fuel....maybe try thinking of people here as individuals and leave the left/ right divisive tags at the door....I base my criticism on the words spoken by the people who are in power...not so much what is written about them but what they actually say and do.....we have a republican led govt and I simply do not like what they are doing or how they are doing it ....you can read every periodical on the internet and it doesn't change anything concerning right or wrong.....which is what we should focus on...not left or right. We are in an election campaign with a right wing president who's been impeached by Congress.....that's not CNN spin...it's a fact...
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Democrats wrong. Republicans wrong. :dunno:
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
Democrats wrong. Republicans wrong. :dunno:
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My reference was to your alluding to S2 forum members as being shallow, one sided uninformed left wing parrots......all owned by the media and its left leaning newsreels...I take exception to that..I think the news is fueled by current events and the AP feed has nothing to do with left or right but editorials tend to show that bias....after all this propping up of dislike for bipartisan govt...are you obstaining from the election?
 
riverman said:
My reference was to your alluding to S2 forum members as being shallow, one sided uninformed left wing parrots......all owned by the media and its left leaning newsreels...I take exception to that..I think the news is fueled by current events and the AP feed has nothing to do with left or right but editorials tend to show that bias....after all this propping up of dislike for bipartisan govt...are you obstaining from the election?
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Well, I never said that. I said that most of the posters here more than likely spend much more time with left-wing media, than media outside of that. If that's wrong than ok, I'm wrong.
I don't think wiz is stupid, or uninformed, or 'shallow', in fact probably the opposite of that. We just very much disagree about things, and yeah I'd venture to guess that he does spend much more time listening to media types that agree with his POV's than otherwise. I probably do too, though I try to listen to media from all over the political spectrum.

I've said a bunch of times that I'll vote libertarian again for president and probably independent in other elections...
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
https://jo20.com/
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ok.....didn't see this before...I voted libertarian last ticket...now I can't waste a vote on a losing cause again....democrats have issues but they are not wrong about wearing masks and social distancing...helping out the unemployed until there's a safe vaccine and world diplomacy...all areas the republicans are wrong about right now....this is about damage control...not about partisan sideshows....Trump has been impeached...that's not a normal election situation..I voted Gary Johnson last time....I vote Joe Biden this time
 
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