The super Melo to Portland thread + The Big Blockbuster (2 Viewers)

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Should the Blazers puruse Carmelo Anthony?

  • Yes

  • No

  • Not No but Hell No

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This is the problem.... some fans are completely content with forever being stuck in the 8th seed.
 
honkicracker said:
Kobe+Bryant+Bruce+Bowen+Los+Angeles+Lakers+zos3bRgQbkZl.jpg
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So because Bowen was a great defender, Ginobili wasn't? Bowen was stronger and better suited to bigger guards like Kobe. Ginobili was better against smaller guards. You're absolutely the first person I've ever seen suggest Ginobili wasn't at least a good defender in his prime and the advanced stats also don't paint him as overrated on that end.
 
Natebishop3 said:
I would challenge you to show me a time where a combo like Dame/CJ has worked as a formula for a championship.

Two score-first, sub-6'6, poor defense guards that like to have the ball in their hands.

Show me where that has been a recipe for success.

Earl Monroe and Walt Frazier maybe?
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Before GS won their first title, it was repeated ad nauseum that your PG being your leading scorer was not a way to win a title. Nobody wins with your PG being your go to guy they'd say. And then it changed. I dunno if we win a title with them 2, but winning a title is so hard that it might not matter anyways, if CJ magically turned into a 6'5 stopper. But I don't agree with saying because this is what everyone has done in the past, it's the only way to do it. The league constantly changes.
 
Minstrel said:
So because Bowen was a great defender, Ginobili wasn't? Bowen was stronger suited to bigger guards like Kobe. Ginobili was better against smaller guards. You're absolutely the first person I've ever seen suggest Ginobili wasn't at least a good defender in his prime and the advanced stats also don't paint him as overrated on that end.
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The point was Manu didn't draw the other teams best guard.
Manu was an overrated defender who understood positioning. But never was he a good defender, at best he's average.
Something I firmly believe CJ will become.

Oh right, I forgot you're one of those people who think advanced numbers are absolute.
 
RR7 said:
Before GS won their first title, it was repeated ad nauseum that your PG being your leading scorer was not a way to win a title. Nobody wins with your PG being your go to guy they'd say. And then it changed. I dunno if we win a title with them 2, but winning a title is so hard that it might not matter anyways, if CJ magically turned into a 6'5 stopper. But I don't agree with saying because this is what everyone has done in the past, it's the only way to do it. The league constantly changes.
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Curry is such a freak though.... he is significantly more efficient than Dame in terms of shooting. For everything that I love about Lillard, he's nowhere near the shooting percentages that Curry has put up. His numbers dipped a bit last season, but in 2015-2016 he shot over 50% from the floor and over 45% from three, while averaging 30 ppg. That's just insane. Dame is gonna have to really step up his efficiency if he hopes to match Curry.
 
RR7 said:
So what's the CJ trade to get us to a title?
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Most of the guys that were favorites of mine have already been dealt.

Jimmy Butler
Paul George (admittedly I wouldn't have dealt CJ for George after all the rumors about LA)

I'd still move him for Porzingis (but I think that's dead since Phil was fired.)

The landscape of the NBA has changed significantly this summer, so I don't have any names right now, but I'm definitely not on the "Dame/CJ or bust!" bandwagon.
 
Natebishop3 said:
Curry is such a freak though.... he is significantly more efficient than Dame in terms of shooting. For everything that I love about Lillard, he's nowhere near the shooting percentages that Curry has put up. His numbers dipped a bit last season, but in 2015-2016 he shot over 50% from the floor and over 45% from three, while averaging 30 ppg. That's just insane. Dame is gonna have to really step up his efficiency if he hopes to match Curry.
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None of that disputes my point, however, that prior to him doing it, people said it wasn't the way to do it. Of course you need someone to play out of their mind in order to win a title.
 
Natebishop3 said:
I would challenge you to show me a time where a combo like Dame/CJ has worked as a formula for a championship.

Two score-first, sub-6'6, poor defense guards that like to have the ball in their hands.

Show me where that has been a recipe for success.

Earl Monroe and Walt Frazier maybe?
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How long ago did they say teams who lived by the 3 died by the 3...... and could never win a championship? I can still hear Charles Barley saying it way back in .....oh yeah it was only 2 1/2 years ago. My point is since the game has changed I don't believe using history as an example in how to build a team works anymore. The game has evolved.

The size of Dame and CJ are not the issue. Poor defense might be, but give us Pop for a year and there is no doubt in my mind that a defensive strategy with Dame and CJ will be quite different and more effective because of the "team" concept.

And for the few teams where size might be an issue....add the right 3rd guard to the team . Don't get rid of a quality player when you can just add a role player for certain situations.

How many opposing guards outscore our starting back court because of their poor D? 1? Shouldn't it be more if they are that bad?
Now we have a starting center who will also when his match up. Our PF battles in the future with Zack and/or Swanigan should also be in our favor. So just find a SF who can slow down the other team's SF and we should be fine. (Assuming we have a solid bench)
 
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honkicracker said:
Why are you changing the topic? Now it's about championships?
I'm revoking peoples ability to talk about basketball when they say Lilard & CJ are a copy of Curry & Ellis.
It's lazy.
I've already explained why this is not the case a year or so ago.
I won't do it again.

p.s. Parker & Manu were shoot first players who sucked ass defensively yet still won rings.
(Oh I can hear the reply now... 'But they had the GOAT coach & pf')
*eye roll*





Championships are not a way to determine if players work together or not, otherwise Stockton & Malone sucked and never should've been together.
See what I did there?
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I didn't say they were a copy, I said it was a similar situation.

You can't admit that they are a suboptimal pairing, because of their defensive deficiencies and need to dominate the ball to be at peak effectiveness?
 
honkicracker said:
The point was Manu didn't draw the other teams best guard.
Manu was an overrated defender who understood positioning.
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He often drew the other team's best guard. As I said, Ginobili was a better defender than Bowen for smaller guards.

Oh right, I forgot you're one of those people who think advanced numbers are absolute.
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I said that advanced stats backed up what everyone except you, including analysts, could see. Not that advanced stats proved it.
 
Nikolokolus said:
I didn't say they were a copy, I said it was a similar situation.

You can't admit that they are a suboptimal pairing, because of their defensive deficiencies and need to dominate the ball to be at peak effectiveness?
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But apparently the rebuttal to this is, "anything can happen!"
 
The offensive duplication of Lillard and McCollum isn't perfect, but it isn't a problem either. Having two elite shooters is a force multiplier and that's a bigger deal than both being at their best with the ball in their hands.

My pessimism for the duo lies entirely on the defensive end, where I think they'll both be significant defensive minuses their entire careers. It's not impossible for one or both to improve on defense--Curry improved from atrocious defender to roughly average. But that's the exception, not something I'd bank on. In a guard-dominated league, having both your star guards be bad on defense threatens to fatally flaw any team you build.

The Blazers are obviously much, much better off having both of them than not having either one, but if a trade comes along where the team can largely keep talent constant but move it into the form of a player who offers better defense on guards/wings, I think that would help the cause of building a title contender considerably.
 
RR7 said:
So what's the CJ trade to get us to a title?
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This is my main thought when trading CJ comes up. If we had money to sign another SG, a CJ + pick(s) for Anthony Davis would be ideal. But again, the hole left at SG would just create another weakness. Once a trade becomes available that would give us a shot at a championship I'd be all for trading CJ, at this point I don't see one.
 
Minstrel said:
Yeah, but he gave the stats when Crabbe starts. While they are a small sample size, it certainly doesn't provide any positive evidence for starting him.



All players are better off working off the talents of better players, yes. However, it's complicated by the fact that they go up against better players too--the opposing teams' starters. So it's not clear that a player like Crabbe, who struggles even against lesser players, would derive a benefit from starting even if you take into account better teammates around him.
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To me Crabbe played better defense subbing for Nico when there was no offense run through him at all....at the 2 guard 6 man position he's expected to score and his defense lags...he needs to balance that out for sure
 
Natebishop3 said:
But apparently the rebuttal to this is, "anything can happen!"
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Well, is it really impossible?

The Lillard/McCollum/Nurkic core is in its infancy. I'm not about to put a ceiling on it yet. I realize the odds are not in their favor, but who knows.
 
riverman said:
I believe he plays better with the starters than the bench players....but no matter what you call myth...his stats are overwhelmingly collected from bench minutes....I think most players play better with starting level players....please stop calling opinions myths...you're welcome to yours and welcome to feel it's your truthful opinion....as are we all
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Calling it a myth was just a kind way of saying it's flat out wrong. Look at his shooting percentages as a starter. They are just plain awful. Yes, the sample size is small, but it's all we have to go by and it's the exact same sample size you base your opinion on that Crabbe plays better as a starter.

Some players play better with starters, but 1-dimensional players like Crabbe usually don't fair well against the tougher competition he would be going up against on a nightly basis. He's better coming off the bench where he is guarding, and guarded by, other bench players. Do you really think he can guard other starting small forwards as well as Harkless? Can he get his shot off against other starters? Beat them off the dribble?

BNM
 
Boob-No-More said:
Do you really think he can guard other starting small forwards as well as Harkless?
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I think his rookie defense was better when he was the 5th option on offense....now as a 6 man he's struggling to play defense..Harkless is a lot bigger and stronger than Crabbe but I want Crabbe shooting the shot clock ending shot from deep, not Mo...I think Aminu is the best defender of the 3 and Mo can be when engaged but isn't consistent.....Mo disappointed me in the post season big time...
 
Natebishop3 said:
WE SHOULD NEVER CHANGE ANYTHING ABOUT THE TEAM EVARRRRRR!
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The team could look for a defensive wing (2/3) player to form a 3 guard rotation rather than trading CJ.

I was hoping our team would draft a player like Donovan Mitchell giving us a solid 3 guard rotation where they could play a defensive guard with Dame and/or CJ depending upon match-ups in the games.
 
Minstrel said:
The offensive duplication of Lillard and McCollum isn't perfect, but it isn't a problem either. Having two elite shooters is a force multiplier and that's a bigger deal than both being at their best with the ball in their hands.
*snip*
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I think that's true to a point. But I wonder if there is an opportunity cost when those two are taking turns jacking up 20 shots a game? I get the impression that the rest of the guys do a lot of standing around, which seems to result in a lot of isolation basketball, which has proved to be much less effective against playoff defenses, than a more balanced attack -- because the other guys aren't expected to produce much offense (admittedly in part because of limitations to their game) when it comes time for them to step up, when one or the other of Damian or CJ is neutralized, they definitely haven't risen to the occasion, because there's maybe not enough reps to be ready?

This isn't to suggest I want bad offensive players like Aminu or Vonleh taking a lot more shots, but I do wonder if lack of "engagement" on offense for some of these guys leads to less effort on defense?
 
Natebishop3 said:
I would challenge you to show me a time where a combo like Dame/CJ has worked as a formula for a championship.

Two score-first, sub-6'6, poor defense guards that like to have the ball in their hands.

Show me where that has been a recipe for success.

Earl Monroe and Walt Frazier maybe?
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Oh hell no. Clyde Frazier was a GREAT defender. He made 1st Team All Defense 7 times.

Ditto for the Thomas/Dumars duo in DET. Joe D was a lock down defender.

But, the game has changed. The three pointer and hand checking rules have changed that. No one ever won a title playing small ball until someone did. Championships used to be won with a dominant center. These days, the role of center is completely different.

So, just because it hasn't been done before doesn't mean it can't or won't happen. It all depends on who you put around those two guards.

BNM
 
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