The Supreme Court, Gay Marriage, and Anthony Kennedy

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This idea that its simply "5 of 9" lawyers deciding is so un-American Denny. They are the third branch of government. They are there to check and balance legislatures. We can vote all we want to, say, kill all purple people, but the Constitution says that's illegal, no matter what a democratic vote might be. Not all laws pass legal muster. Denying gays the right to marry violated the 14th amendment. Thank G-d for those 5 lawyers, that 3rd branch. Yeah America!
 
39 states already had same sex marriage via democratic means. SCOTUS didn't have to get involved.

The end result was good, most of us will agree.

Never in the history of the nation has a law been made requiring everyone to buy a product of a select industry. It was no tax, it was trampling on liberty.

Roberts didn't want the court to intervene on that cause, either.

You can't have it both ways.
 
39 states already had same sex marriage via democratic means. SCOTUS didn't have to get involved.

Sure, they could have refused to hear the case. In fact, they could refuse to hear every case. Not sure that would be a great idea.

If only 11 states already had same sex marriage, and 39 didn't, would you then be in favor of SCOTUS deciding the case?

barfo
 
39 states already had same sex marriage via democratic means. SCOTUS didn't have to get involved.

The end result was good, most of us will agree.

Never in the history of the nation has a law been made requiring everyone to buy a product of a select industry. It was no tax, it was trampling on liberty.

Roberts didn't want the court to intervene on that cause, either.

You can't have it both ways.


And if the next Republican president wants to disallow what those 39 states have done? Would you accept the court getting involved then?
 
Sure, they could have refused to hear the case. In fact, they could refuse to hear every case. Not sure that would be a great idea.

If only 11 states already had same sex marriage, and 39 didn't, would you then be in favor of SCOTUS deciding the case?

barfo
They didn't decide the case when there was 11, or 38.
 
And if the next Republican president wants to disallow what those 39 states have done? Would you accept the court getting involved then?
Yes.

Court is there to resolve disputes between the others two branches, and between states, and between states and the Feds.
 
They didn't decide the case when there was 11, or 38.

Right, but you are avoiding the question. Under what circumstances do you think it's ok for SCOTUS to decide this case? You seem to be saying it's not ok because the tide is already in favor of same sex marriage. I'm not sure where the constitution says the supreme court can't rule on cases where the tide of public opinion is going a certain direction?
 
I think it violated the 14th, more and more as more states made it legal.

Roberts has been consistent in his rulings. Let the representatives of the people vote on it. In his own words, "elections have consequences."
 
I think it violated the 14th, more and more as more states made it legal.

Roberts has been consistent in his rulings. Let the representatives of the people vote on it. In his own words, "elections have consequences."

I can't figure out what position you are trying to take on this. Sounds like "I'm unhappy they decided the case, but I'm happy they did. Laws against it were unconstitutional, but the supreme court should not have considered the constitution because that isn't democratic. "

barfo
 
All I'm saying is if Roberts were voting his ideology, he'd have voted (deciding vote) ObamaCare unconstitutional and wrote gay marriage laws unconstitutional too.

He didn't. I understand why.
 
Denny, I think you are misrepresenting the quote.

"If you are among the many Americans -- of whatever sexual orientation -- who favor expanding same-sex marriage, by all means celebrate today's decision. Celebrate the achievement of a desired goal. Celebrate the opportunity for a new expression of commitment to a partner. Celebrate the availability of new benefits. But do not Celebrate the Constitution. It had nothing to do with it."

He never indicated what his ideology was, he just said that IF you are among those who were in favor of same-sex-marriage expansion, then go ahead and be happy, but not for constitutional reasons. But he never said what HE believed on that subject. Just that he thought the decision was not for constitutional reasons.
 
Denny, I think you are misrepresenting the quote.



He never indicated what his ideology was, he just said that IF you are among those who were in favor of same-sex-marriage expansion, then go ahead and be happy, but not for constitutional reasons. But he never said what HE believed on that subject. Just that he thought the decision was not for constitutional reasons.

The sentences that start with "Celebrate." Like "Celebrate the opportunity for a new expression of commitment to a partner. Celebrate the availability of new benefits."

I don't see anything like the "marriage is between a man and a woman" malarky. He actually sounds happy for the people.

I'm not complaining about the decision. I'm suggesting that those who think Roberts is a bigot are confused.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Roberts

John Glover Roberts Jr. (born January 27, 1955) is the 17th and current Chief Justice of the United States. He took his seat on September 29, 2005, having been nominated by President George W. Bush after the death of Chief Justice William Rehnquist. He has been described as having a conservative judicial philosophy in his jurisprudence.
 
The sentences that start with "Celebrate." Like "Celebrate the opportunity for a new expression of commitment to a partner. Celebrate the availability of new benefits."

I don't see anything like the "marriage is between a man and a woman" malarky. He actually sounds happy for the people.

I'm not complaining about the decision. I'm suggesting that those who think Roberts is a bigot are confused.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Roberts

John Glover Roberts Jr. (born January 27, 1955) is the 17th and current Chief Justice of the United States. He took his seat on September 29, 2005, having been nominated by President George W. Bush after the death of Chief Justice William Rehnquist. He has been described as having a conservative judicial philosophy in his jurisprudence.

I'm just saying that his statement did not broach what he believed personally on the subject of gay marriage, one way or the other. His statements are neither supportive nor derogatory. He carefully crafted his statement to say exactly what he wanted to say, to keep his written supreme court opinion totally fixed on his view of the constitution and not on personal agenda. But it's wrong for both sides not to realize he is a very public figure and purposefully couches his thoughts, as do most of the Justices. This does no mean that behind closed doors their own biases or agendas don't influence which portion of the constitution they focus on, or how how they decide to interpret the constitution.

I don't claim Roberts is a bigot, but he did get the decision wrong in my estimation (and yours). But his words don't mean he wasn't bigoted, just that he wrote his opinion in a way that did not express personal belief on the subject.
 
I'm just saying that his statement did not broach what he believed personally on the subject of gay marriage, one way or the other. His statements are neither supportive nor derogatory. He carefully crafted his statement to say exactly what he wanted to say, to keep his written supreme court opinion totally fixed on his view of the constitution and not on personal agenda. But it's wrong for both sides not to realize he is a very public figure and purposefully couches his thoughts, as do most of the Justices. This does no mean that behind closed doors their own biases or agendas don't influence which portion of the constitution they focus on, or how how they decide to interpret the constitution.

I don't claim Roberts is a bigot, but he did get the decision wrong in my estimation (and yours). But his words don't mean he wasn't bigoted, just that he wrote his opinion in a way that did not express personal belief on the subject.

He didn't get the decision "wrong" - he got it different. To him the question the court decided took an activist approach, and he disagrees with judicial activism. For the same reason, he refused to vote against ObamaCare - though unconstitutional, it is something that the people and their legislators can fix.

"Understand well what this dissent is about: It is not about whether, in my judgment, the institution of marriage should be changed to include same-sex couples. It is instead about whether, in our democratic republic, that decision should rest with the people acting through their elected representatives, or with five lawyers who happen to hold commissions authorizing them to resolve legal disputes according to law," he wrote.

"Supporters of same-sex marriage have achieved considerable success persuading their fellow citizens—through the democratic process—to adopt their view. That ends today," Roberts wrote. "Stealing this issue from the people will for many cast a cloud over same-sex marriage, making a dramatic social change that much more difficult to accept."

"Stripped of its shiny rhetorical gloss, the majority's argument is that the Due Process Clause gives same-sex couples a fundamental right to marry because it will be good for them and for society," Roberts wrote. "If I were a legislator, I would certainly consider that view as a matter of social policy. But as a judge, I find the majority's position indefensible as a matter of constitutional law."

Compare to Scalia:

"When the Fourteenth Amendment was ratified in 1868, every State limited marriage to one man and one woman, and no one doubted the constitutionality of doing so," he wrote.

"They [the majority] have discovered in the Fourteenth Amendment a 'fundamental right' overlooked by every person alive at the time of ratification, and almost everyone else in the time since."
 
We are dealing with a bunch of issues in this thread from gay rights to necessity of judicial vs legislative reasonings. Roberts the guy, I have no idea about. Roberts the judge i think is incorrect in his evaluation of the requirements of the third branch of government to protect and define what freedoms are granted by simple breath. I understand his view I just disagree. I believe it is his purview to define the rights or freedoms Americans should have and to protect them.

As far as my original entrance into this thread, I was simply pointing out that you were ascribing personal support by Roberts for non-judicial based gay rights where his words did not support that.
 
We are dealing with a bunch of issues in this thread from gay rights to necessity of judicial vs legislative reasonings. Roberts the guy, I have no idea about. Roberts the judge i think is incorrect in his evaluation of the requirements of the third branch of government to protect and define what freedoms are granted by simple breath. I understand his view I just disagree. I believe it is his purview to define the rights or freedoms Americans should have and to protect them.

As far as my original entrance into this thread, I was simply pointing out that you were ascribing personal support by Roberts for non-judicial based gay rights where his words did not support that.

I think we do need to be careful what things the court can by fiat make as law. I will always be on side on the side of individual freedom, including giving up freedom to government as we continually do in a "progressive" manner. Progressive isn't very democratic, which is Roberts' point.

Funny how people complained about the court ruling in Bush v Gore, where they did get involved where the state was struggling with implementing its democratic institution, and now complain about the view that the court shouldn't get involved in such things. If you want the court to be activist, that's the kind of thing they will do.

Consistency is a big deal.

Now consider this, too. If Roberts chose to be activist, I think he would have voted for gay marriage and against ObamaCare. You want to make that trade, or would you prefer to let our elected representatives duke it out in congress and with/against the president and his veto?
 
You seem to put any court action onto the label activist. But I am not so certain. I think there are areas that are purview and areas that aren't. I didn't read Roberts words on Obamacare, but I personally see that and Civil rights as two very different areas. I can see how a Judge can be consistent and believe it is the courts duty to interpret on one case and not on the other. That's not to say that Roberts doesn't see them in the same camp, I just don't.

I disagree with Roberts, but I believe he is trying to judge in accordance with how he thinks a justice should interpret the constitution.

As far as how people complain about one ruling and praise others without consistency, well that's just human nature mixed with poor understanding of the law, government and the constitution. But consistency doesn't mean that every issue is equal and that some don't rise to a level where inalienable rights are at play. So the right to be viewed equally under the law across state lines does depend on the topic at hand. Not to be lynched for race, yes. Not to get a speeding ticket for changing limits, no. Consistency regardless of topic would not be appropriate either.
 
Marriage isn't an inalienable right. It's a religious concoction or a form of contract created by and recognized by the state.

The state grants certain benefits for those who are married: family law, divorce, hospital visitation and decision rights, probate, etc. Those benefits aren't anything to do with Natural Rights.

There's the rub.

My 14th amendment take is that this contract recognized by the state needs to be inclusive; that all the state's citizens aren't treated fairly if they allow marriage for some but not others.

My 1st amendment take is that no religious institution has to perform marriage ceremonies for anyone or can pick and choose those ceremonies they will perform.

Your consistency argument is questionable to me, and highlights Roberts' correct reasoning. You don't want 5 lawyers to decide and make law based upon how their sphincters twitch when they hear the details of the cases.
 
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Is Denny saying that Roberts thought Obamacare was unconstitutional but voted for it anyway?

I'm confused.
 
Read the NY Times link above.
Interesting.
In one way, I respect his decisions as being truly based on how he views the constitution, but on the other hand some of his decisions like on citizens united, are so detrimental to America that I just can't look past that aspect. My guess is that you, being a Libertarian, agree with Roberts on his citizens united ruling, but to me it undermines democracy.
 
Interesting.
In one way, I respect his decisions as being truly based on how he views the constitution, but on the other hand some of his decisions like on citizens united, are so detrimental to America that I just can't look past that aspect. My guess is that you, being a Libertarian, agree with Roberts on his citizens united ruling, but to me it undermines democracy.
Allowing elected officials to regulate political speech undermines democracy. Succinctly put.
 
Don't wanna read. Don't care at this point. Either something is constitutional or it isn't. Don't care if it is detrimental to America, as long as it is correct. I suspect things would work better if we adhered to the Constitution and changed what we need to case by case.
 
Funny. I did not hear John Roberts say that we should have an opportunity to vote on whether corporations are people and money is speech (Citizens United). I did not hear him say that we should have an opportunity to vote on whether it's OK to pay women less, as long as the company hides that fact (Ledbetter). I did not hear him say we should have the opportunity to vote on whether women need to ask their employer's permission to get birth control (Hobby Lobby). He seems to be rather selective.

I wonder if he thinks Loving v Virginia should have been put to a vote? It took 30 more years before a majority favored interracial marriage. Long time for the Lovings to sit in jail for the crime of being married.

Does he think Bush v Gore was wrongly decided? Should the people have been allowed to vote?

Regardless of Roberts' or Denny's knots, the decision is made.

Now, the bigots will try to say that companies and government offices should be able to deny us service because Jesus. Just like Jesus wanted segregation 50 years ago. Already ruled on 50 years ago. Isn't it interesting that everyone's gods have the same prejudices they do? And yes, the only reason for denying a category of "others" the rights you claim for yourself is bigotry.
 
The Loving case was substantially different, @crandc.

It wasn't an issue of interracial marriage denied, it was an issue of it being criminalized. The Lovings were charged with a crime for their marriage, plead guilty, and were sentenced to prison.

The court similarly intervened to make sodomy laws illegal.

Bush v Gore - those who argue against Roberts' reasoning might find this an eye opener. Or maybe see the hypocrisy in it.

Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg:

.. [D]isagreement with the Florida court' s interpretation of its own State' s law does not warrant the conclusion that the justices of that court have legislated. There is no cause here to believe that the members of Florida' s high court have done less than "their mortal best to discharge their oath of office," and no cause to upset their reasoned interpretation of Florida law...

The extraordinary setting of this case has obscured the ordinary principle that dictates its proper resolution: Federal courts defer to state high courts' interpretations of their State' s own law. This principle reflects the core of federalism, on which all agree. "The Framers split the atom of sovereignty. It was the genius of their idea that our citizens would have two political capacities, one state and one federal, each protected from incursion by the other." ...

SAME LOGIC AS ROBERTS

 
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