The Undefeated: African Americans and Analytics

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illmatic99

formerly yuyuza1
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Speaking of shitstorms: https://theundefeated.com/features/mission-impossible-african-americans-analytics/

Advanced analytics and black folks hardly ever mix. Set aside the tiny handful of black men who make a living somewhere in the sports industry dealing directly with the numbers and there is absolutely zero mingling.

Talk about lightning rod.

Really curious how Dame and CJ treat analytics. CJ drops Synergy tidbits and per 100 possessions stats in nearly every interview.

PS: Wilbon is a tool.
 
I'll read the article in a sec, but I wanted to get this idea down before I do, to see if I touch on anything in it by accident.

I was thinking about analytics and how, depending on how they're implemented, they can be unintentionally (or intentionally) racist, sexist, etc. Social media keyword analytics is a good example; the analytics engines use contextual clues in the text of tweets and blog posts to make a judgment call on if your brand is being mentioned favorably, neutrally, or negatively. But language is used very differently between different groups of people.

If the analytics team making up the rules of judgment are a bunch of 30-something white men, are they going to accurately count Black Twitter's language usage, or Tumblr's more female/feminist leanings? Can the algorithms detect ironic usage of negative language that's sometimes used in marketing? The ownership of the business logic is very important for accurate results.

Anyway, yeah... like all things built by humans, analytics is only as unbiased as humanity is.

EDIT: I've read the article. Wilbon is, indeed, a tool.

Expecting players to live and breathe analytics is asinine. Professional sports is not a white collar job. It's a very well-paid blue collar job. I don't expect factory workers at an automotive plant to understand how to use CAD to design a car. I do expect them to know their job, whether its by instinct or by rote memorization or by in-depth knowledge of the whys for that one part of the car they're building. All three methods bring success in different ways and different levels.

Clyde Drexler is an awful coach because he played entirely on instinct, using athleticism to win. None of that translates well to a teaching/white collar job like coaching. But Glenn Rivers (as much as I hate him) played more with his brain than his body. He can teach people, because he knows the process of learning.

Even disregarding the very important fact that most of the athletes have no experience learning statistics and discrete mathematics, the sheer number of years in college gives us a stratification of players within sports. Dame and CJ both show a deep understanding of how the game is played, and why things happen on the court. They will be good at the white collar management/coaching aspects of the job later.

It's no surprise that CJ drops advanced stats in his interviews; he understands why they're useful. Not because he's "less black" or whatever Wilbon's on about, but because he doesn't purely succeed on instinct. He breaks players down as much with his brain as with his crossover.

This is a black/white thing insofar as it is an education opportunity thing. Getting mad at athletes for not accepting advanced nerd stats is useless because it's just blaming someone for opportunities they weren't necessarily given. And that's bullshit.
 
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Here is my insensitive question.

How can their be sites and things like this dedicated to black people, but if someone started a site that only focused on white athletes or whatever, people would be up in arms?
 
Here is my insensitive question.

How can their be sites and things like this dedicated to black people, but if someone started a site that only focused on white athletes or whatever, people would be up in arms?
Because, by default, the western world is focused on white people, built by white people (well, managed by white people and built by free labor by non-whites) for white people. Every month is White History Month. When black people rule the world for 1000 years, we can have White History Month. But, I'll be honest, I don't want to have to go through what black people went through just to be given some lip service and the ability to make my own clubhouse.
 
Here is my insensitive question.

How can their be sites and things like this dedicated to black people, but if someone started a site that only focused on white athletes or whatever, people would be up in arms?

We found a funny one on another forum a few years ago back, but I can't remember its name, started with a c I think. It would only talk about the white players on every team, it was very weird. Joel Pryzbilla was the only guy on our team that talked about, lol.
 
This is a black/white thing insofar as it is an education opportunity thing. Getting mad at athletes for not accepting advanced nerd stats is useless because it's just blaming someone for opportunities they weren't necessarily given. And that's bullshit.
Exactly how I felt. Bringing race into this thing seems completely unnecessary. It's just a convenient separation between athletes and front office types.
 
Exactly how I felt. Bringing race into this thing seems completely unnecessary. It's just a convenient separation between athletes and front office types.

No, race is kind of necessary to the discussion because opportunities are stratified across race as much as income (because income is stratified across race). It's that Wilbon does some weird victim blaming here, like not quite committing to the end of the train of thought. Black people are not bad at math; people who aren't given good opportunities to get good at math (bad learning environment, the intense need to focus solely on the sport they're playing to succeed, the constant and tacit acceptance of academic dishonesty in order to further a sports career, etc.). They were probably told by adults who failed them a bit that math isn't needed when you're in the NBA.

But again, I don't think it's a huge deal that not every player knows or cares about advanced stats. Lots of people thing it's stupid nerd numbers. And honestly, if you as a player only know that you now have a green light to shoot threes because your manager thinks the numbers add up better, why do you care what True Shooting Percentage is?
 
We found a funny one on another forum a few years ago back, but I can't remember its name, started with a c I think. It would only talk about the white players on every team, it was very weird. Joel Pryzbilla was the only guy on our team that talked about, lol.

I mean, there's Stormfront if you're super into that sort of thing; they're pretty popular.
 
I mean, there's Stormfront if you're super into that sort of thing; they're pretty popular.

Is the Stormfront crowd even into sports? It seems like there are too many types of people they don't like in every pro sport but maybe hockey for them to get into.
 
Because, by default, the western world is focused on white people, built by white people (well, managed by white people and built by free labor by non-whites) for white people. Every month is White History Month. When black people rule the world for 1000 years, we can have White History Month. But, I'll be honest, I don't want to have to go through what black people went through just to be given some lip service and the ability to make my own clubhouse.
I get your point but not completely correct. Some of that labor was built by irish who also were discriminated against. Not trying to take away anything you said because i agree, im just tired of not seeing irish acknowledged too.
 
I get your point but not completely correct. Some of that labor was built by irish who also were discriminated against. Not trying to take away anything you said because i agree, im just tired of not seeing irish acknowledged too.

You're absolutely right; and right now, we're exploiting the Chinese because their labor is cheap and willing. Capitalism has always taken advantage of desperate people to cheat the system, and then sell that cheating as The Way It Must Be.
 
Because, by default, the western world is focused on white people, built by white people (well, managed by white people and built by free labor by non-whites) for white people. Every month is White History Month. When black people rule the world for 1000 years, we can have White History Month. But, I'll be honest, I don't want to have to go through what black people went through just to be given some lip service and the ability to make my own clubhouse.
Yes, what they WENT through is awful. What does that have to do with 2016?
 
Here is my insensitive question.

How can their be sites and things like this dedicated to black people, but if someone started a site that only focused on white athletes or whatever, people would be up in arms?
Did you mention how unfair it was when you got to ride the little yellow bus to school????

Kidding.
 
Yes, what they WENT through is awful. What does that have to do with 2016?

They're still being discriminated against by people and institutions of all sizes. The War On Drugs was designed to target black people, and it's still doing that job. Redlining is still a thing that's being done. The police are still more likely to shoot an unarmed black man than an armed white man.

The white world still targets black people, whether out of habit or actual hatred.
 
Because, by default, the western world is focused on white people, built by white people (well, managed by white people and built by free labor by non-whites) for white people. Every month is White History Month. When black people rule the world for 1000 years, we can have White History Month. But, I'll be honest, I don't want to have to go through what black people went through just to be given some lip service and the ability to make my own clubhouse.

Bless You BC.
 
I get your point but not completely correct. Some of that labor was built by irish who also were discriminated against. Not trying to take away anything you said because i agree, im just tired of not seeing irish acknowledged too.

Sigh... And why are Irish and Italians largely not descriminated against now?

Because of the invented construct "white".

I'm so tired of this tired ass argument that the Irish had it bad as we did. Stop it.
 
I'll read the article in a sec, but I wanted to get this idea down before I do, to see if I touch on anything in it by accident.

I was thinking about analytics and how, depending on how they're implemented, they can be unintentionally (or intentionally) racist, sexist, etc. Social media keyword analytics is a good example; the analytics engines use contextual clues in the text of tweets and blog posts to make a judgment call on if your brand is being mentioned favorably, neutrally, or negatively. But language is used very differently between different groups of people.

If the analytics team making up the rules of judgment are a bunch of 30-something white men, are they going to accurately count Black Twitter's language usage, or Tumblr's more female/feminist leanings? Can the algorithms detect ironic usage of negative language that's sometimes used in marketing? The ownership of the business logic is very important for accurate results.

Anyway, yeah... like all things built by humans, analytics is only as unbiased as humanity is.

EDIT: I've read the article. Wilbon is, indeed, a tool.

Expecting players to live and breathe analytics is asinine. Professional sports is not a white collar job. It's a very well-paid blue collar job. I don't expect factory workers at an automotive plant to understand how to use CAD to design a car. I do expect them to know their job, whether its by instinct or by rote memorization or by in-depth knowledge of the whys for that one part of the car they're building. All three methods bring success in different ways and different levels.

Clyde Drexler is an awful coach because he played entirely on instinct, using athleticism to win. None of that translates well to a teaching/white collar job like coaching. But Glenn Rivers (as much as I hate him) played more with his brain than his body. He can teach people, because he knows the process of learning.

Even disregarding the very important fact that most of the athletes have no experience learning statistics and discrete mathematics, the sheer number of years in college gives us a stratification of players within sports. Dame and CJ both show a deep understanding of how the game is played, and why things happen on the court. They will be good at the white collar management/coaching aspects of the job later.

It's no surprise that CJ drops advanced stats in his interviews; he understands why they're useful. Not because he's "less black" or whatever Wilbon's on about, but because he doesn't purely succeed on instinct. He breaks players down as much with his brain as with his crossover.

This is a black/white thing insofar as it is an education opportunity thing. Getting mad at athletes for not accepting advanced nerd stats is useless because it's just blaming someone for opportunities they weren't necessarily given. And that's bullshit.
Wow - I haven't read the article, but I must say that this is a terrific post.
 
Sigh... And why are Irish and Italians largely not descriminated against now?

Because of the invented construct "white".

I'm so tired of this tired ass argument that the Irish had it bad as we did. Stop it.
The Irish (for a much shorter period of time) did have it as bad as blacks, perhaps more so while under British rule. They were starved, beaten, executed, exiled, imprisoned, dispossessed and otherwise abused and mistreated. Multitudes were also forced in to what amounted to "legal" slavery. This is a true historical fact. However, their "whiteness" did indeed eventually start working for them in America, especially when in competition with blacks. And the saddest part of all, instead of learning compassion and tolerance from their own past experience, they (or the vast majority anyway) became at least as racist and discriminatory as the English and elitist Americans who held them down for generations. This is also a true historical fact. Unlike the blacks, Irish and Italians have largely escaped that kind of discrimination today, but I felt that historical context was relevant......if not utterly useless to this particular discussion......
 
No one has every said that someone is a white male presidential candidate, white male executive, white male doctor, white male college professor, etc.

When you hear phrases like presidential candidate, executive, doctor, professor the picture that forms is nearly always white and male.
But it does get specified "first black president", "woman doctor", first woman sportswriter, first black athlete to play major league baseball, etc.
That's why.
 
Sigh... And why are Irish and Italians largely not descriminated against now?

Because of the invented construct "white".

I'm so tired of this tired ass argument that the Irish had it bad as we did. Stop it.
Did i say any of those things? No. The only problem i had was saying non white people were the only people being used as free labor. Irish were discriminated against.

Today, they dont have it as bad, because they are just seen as white people. But you acting like they werent discriminated against is ironic.
 
They're still being discriminated against by people and institutions of all sizes. The War On Drugs was designed to target black people, and it's still doing that job. Redlining is still a thing that's being done. The police are still more likely to shoot an unarmed black man than an armed white man.

The white world still targets black people, whether out of habit or actual hatred.
Not to try to derail this thread too much. But its not just black people. Mexican people (i dont get this from other latin people as much. I know a lot of colombians living here that dont feel the same) also feel they are targeted. As do middle eastern people.
 
Not to try to derail this thread too much. But its not just black people. Mexican people (i dont get this from other latin people as much. I know a lot of colombians living here that dont feel the same) also feel they are targeted. As do middle eastern people.
Agreed, and Trump's brand of white nationalism makes them big targets. In the context of MM's question, my examples were focusing on racism against blacks. Many groups are targeted by fascist whites, by the institutional elite supremacy still in place. I just wanted to focus my answer.
 
The Irish (for a much shorter period of time) did have it as bad as blacks, perhaps more so while under British rule. They were starved, beaten, executed, exiled, imprisoned, dispossessed and otherwise abused and mistreated. Multitudes were also forced in to what amounted to "legal" slavery. This is a true historical fact. However, their "whiteness" did indeed eventually start working for them in America, especially when in competition with blacks. And the saddest part of all, instead of learning compassion and tolerance from their own past experience, they (or the vast majority anyway) became at least as racist and discriminatory as the English and elitist Americans who held them down for generations. This is also a true historical fact. Unlike the blacks, Irish and Italians have largely escaped that kind of discrimination today, but I felt that historical context was relevant......if not utterly useless to this particular discussion......
One of the most effective psychological tools the powerful use against the less powerful is the fear of the second-lowest social group of losing their place to the lowest group. That's how you can mobilize poor whites to support rich people that have no interest in their needs: give them a group below them to fear. Mexican immigrants are also poor but they aren't white. So they are lower in the pecking order. And poor whites will fight tooth and nail to stay ahead of them. Just invoke the specter of the lower group taking your jobs, jobs (by the way) that the rich are managing closely in almost the same way a ref manages the point spread in a basketball game. It's crooked but it's the only game in town.
 
One of the most effective psychological tools the powerful use against the less powerful is the fear of the second-lowest social group of losing their place to the lowest group. That's how you can mobilize poor whites to support rich people that have no interest in their needs: give them a group below them to fear. Mexican immigrants are also poor but they aren't white. So they are lower in the pecking order. And poor whites will fight tooth and nail to stay ahead of them. Just invoke the specter of the lower group taking your jobs, jobs (by the way) that the rich are managing closely in almost the same way a ref manages the point spread in a basketball game. It's crooked but it's the only game in town.
Which is exactly what the 1% has been doing for generations......and exactly what Trump is doing right now. When the have nots are at each other's throats, the real perpetrators get off scott free....and continue to take even more from the have nots because those folks are too busy tearing each other apart to notice....divide and conquer.
 

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