The Underrating of Jason Kidd

[NJNetz]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Peter May of the Boston Globe is a bit mystified...and he blames himself. With all the talk about the best point guard in the NBA, why isn't more attention being paid to Jason Kidd? Steve Nash has the MVP trophies. Chris Paul has the future buzz. But one fifth of the way through the season, Kidd's preseason comment that he can average a triple double no longer sounds like a joke. May notes that like a lot of sportswriters, he has underestimated, underrated Kidd. </div>
Source


It is interesting how well Kidd is playing, yet we don't hear anything about him. That bias towards Nash being the best point guard is really affecting how they look at Kidd.

 

[Legacy]

Kidd has gone down from his prime, but he still the best PG in the NBA

 

[Chutney]

Maybe no ones talking about him, because the Nets are playing like crap. He's definitely having a good season, but its not translating to wins.

 

[NJNetz]

When Phoenix wasn't playing well, you still heard how Nash is the best point guard and all.

Hornets have lost 5 in a row and yet we hear buzz about Paul.

So I don't know if you can make that arguement. Kidd is just treated like a has been. Plain and simple.

 

[Chutney]

Well, Phoenix and New Orleans are both playing in the West, so its hard to compare their slumps to that of a team playing in the Crap-lantic division. And I never heard anything about Nash when the Suns were struggling. Most of the news was about Boris Diaw playing lazily or Amare's recovery. Chris Paul's deserved the recognition and the recent slump is because he's playing without Stojakovic and West.

Kidd's stats are being recognized. Ask anybody who owns him in a fantasy league. But he doesn't deserve much else, if he can't take that team anywhere.

 

[NJNetz]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But he doesn't deserve much else, if he can't take that team anywhere.</div>

We're talking about Kidd here. This guy isn't a Marbury but in fact the exact opposite. He has taken multiple teams to high levels, but it comes to a point where he can't do it alone especially at 34.

He still takes team to high levels, but he needs a Vince Carter & a Richard Jefferson to nudge him forward now.

 

[Moo2K4]

Kidd has been amazing this season, putting up a near triple double so far, coming an assist or point shy of one on numerous occasions. His team just needs to get on the right track instead of struggling in the worst division in basketball.

 

[AMS_ICE]

<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Maybe no ones talking about him, because the Nets are playing like crap. He's definitely having a good season, but its not translating to wins.</div>

Correction. Kidd has been the key to the Nets wins. When the Nets won, Kidd averaged 16.2 PPG., 8.7 RPG., 9.8 APG. and 2 SPG. When they lost, he only averaged 9.6 PPG., 7.8 RPG., 9.1 APG. and 1.2 SPG. And as far as you saying that he doesn't deserve more is a lot of BULL. Kidd has always been overlooked. Despite turning the Nets franchise into a winning team, he hasn't gotten the proper credit. He was even ROBBED of an MVP trophy! Nash and Chris Paul are overrated. And talk about not being able to lead a team, where has Nash brought the Suns? Dallas even made the finals without Nash. As for Paul, theres no doubting his talent, but he has yet to prove anything. Right now the best "POINT GUARD" is still Jason Kidd.

 

[Chutney]

There's no doubting he's the best point guard in the league. But he won't get the attention he deserves until his team starts creating some distance from the rest of that terrible division. Ask KG, who's arguably the best forward in the league. They both may be the key to their teams' wins, but their teams aren't winning nearly enough to warrant any more buzz.

 

[phunDamentalz]

<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">There's no doubting he's the best point guard in the league. </div>

actually there is some doubting he's the #1. There's no doubt he's one of the best. But Steve Nash is the best point guard in the league. period.

 

[Legacy]

<div class="quote_poster">phunDamentalz Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">actually there is some doubting he's the #1. There's no doubt he's one of the best. But Steve Nash is the best point guard in the league. period.</div>

Reasons?

 

[phunDamentalz]

<div class="quote_poster">Carter Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Reasons?</div>

1. dictates tempo better than any point guard
2. knows when to shoot when to pass and who to pass to at what time better than any point guard
3. most accurate passes by far for any point guard
4. great shooter to boot

 

[Legacy]

<div class="quote_poster">phunDamentalz Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">1. dictates tempo better than any point guard
2. knows when to shoot when to pass and who to pass to at what time better than any point guard
3. most accurate passes by far for any point guard
4. great shooter to boot</div>

5. No defense
6. No rebounding
7. Only played great for 2 seasons

 

[Skiptomylue11]

<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">There's no doubting he's the best point guard in the league. </div>
I doubt he is the best.

Considering another pointguard has won the MVP the last 2 seasons, implies some people who voted consider another pointguard greater than him. I don't know how high Jason Kidd ranked in MVP voting.

As well when matched up head to head in the Suns vs. Nets game.
Steve Nash: 26 pts (9-16 FG (2-7 3ptFG)) 2 rbs, 13 assists, 5 TOs
Jason Kidd: 7 pts (3-12 FG (0-1 3ptFG)) 8 rbs, 5 assists, 3 steals, 2 TOs

I think Jason Kidd is a great player, but not in the same respects as some Nets' fans may.

 

[Legacy]

<div class="quote_poster">SkiptoMyLue11 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I doubt he is the best.

Considering another pointguard has won the MVP the last 2 seasons, implies some people who voted consider another pointguard greater than him. I don't know how high Jason Kidd ranked in MVP voting.

As well when matched up head to head in the Suns vs. Nets game.
Steve Nash: 26 pts (9-16 FG (2-7 3ptFG)) 2 rbs, 13 assists, 5 TOs
Jason Kidd: 7 pts (3-12 FG (0-1 3ptFG)) 8 rbs, 5 assists, 3 steals, 2 TOs

I think Jason Kidd is a great player, but not in the same respects as some Nets' fans may.</div>

Nash is a better scorer and shooter, other than that JKidd is better at everything else.

 

[phunDamentalz]

<div class="quote_poster">Carter Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">5. No defense
6. No rebounding
7. Only played great for 2 seasons</div>

okay i'll give you number 7 for sure.
number 6 - rebounding is not really what you look for in a point guard.
and number 5 - no defense - defense is overrated at the point guard position. how much stopping can you do at the 1? if you can't defend as a forward or center, then that's bad, but as a point guard it's less important. there have been many great teams with point guards who couldn't play D but very few great teams with frontcourt players who couldnt' play D.

as far as nash being a better scorer and shooter, yes he is, he's also a better passer. It's pretty hard to argue that one point guard is not as good as the other when he's a better scorer, shooter and passer, isn't it??
to be honest i think Nash is a better leader also. Kidd is a leader, but Nash is an uberleader in these last 2 seasons

 

[Skiptomylue11]

<div class="quote_poster">Carter Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Nash is a better scorer and shooter, other than that JKidd is better at everything else.</div>
Defense in the post: Nash = liability, Kidd = good
Defense on the perimeter: Nash = liability, Kidd = pretty good
Court vision: slight edge Nash
Endurance: Nash = Good Kidd = decent (Nash effectively runs the fastest paced offense in the nba)
3 pt shooting: Nash = good, Kidd = liability
mid range shooting: Nash = good, Kidd = decent
layups: Nash = good Kidd = good
Turnovers: Nash = good, Kidd = good

 

[Legacy]

Who would you rather have on your team: Kidd in his prime or Nash in his prime?

 

[AMS_ICE]

<div class="quote_poster">phunDamentalz Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">okay i'll give you number 7 for sure.
number 6 - rebounding is not really what you look for in a point guard.
and number 5 - no defense - defense is overrated at the point guard position. how much stopping can you do at the 1? if you can't defend as a forward or center, then that's bad, but as a point guard it's less important. there have been many great teams with point guards who couldn't play D but very few great teams with frontcourt players who couldnt' play D.


as far as nash being a better scorer and shooter, yes he is, he's also a better passer. It's pretty hard to argue that one point guard is not as good as the other when he's a better scorer, shooter and passer, isn't it??
to be honest i think Nash is a better leader also. Kidd is a leader, but Nash is an uberleader in these last 2 seasons</div>

Maybe those great teams you're reffering to doesn't have great point guards. Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, John Stockton, etc., were great defenders. A great player can play D. As much as Jordan was a great offensive player, he was a ferocious defender. Defense wins games. How can you say that defense for a point guard is less important? Who runs the plays? Who sets the offense? It says much on what you know about the game.


Nash is not a better passer. A better shooter, yes. Nash is an incredible shooter. Aside from that, there is nothing that Nash is better at than Kidd.

 

[Chutney]

To tell you the truth, I just said that so that the poster would realize that I wasn't attacking Kidd's game, but his team's lack of success. Poor choice of words on my part. I'm not really sure who I'd choose, but you could make a decent argument for both sides.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Carter:</div><div class="quote_post">Who would you rather have on your team: Kidd in his prime or Nash in his prime?</div>
That's irrelevant.

 

[Skiptomylue11]

That is a different question, and I wouldn't be sure. I think it would depend on my team. Both are great players with different weaknesses so it would be a tough decision.

 

[Montaman]

I would choose Steve Nash. In my estimation, I feel he's a better passer, ballhandler, shooter, and leader. Jason Kidd is very strong in many ways, but I'm putting a premium on point guard skills from the point guard position. In my ideal world, whether or not Jason Kidd out rebounds Nash, or plays better post D is irrelevant, since those aren't abilities that I'm coveting at that position, similar to how just because Chris Webber was known as an elite passing big man, I wouldn't weigh that too heavily in the debate to take him against another premier forward.

Ultimately, because Kidd is a model of consistancy while Nash's career had been good but not great until a few years ago, I find myself forced to evaluate this as less of a numbers game and evaluate what I see from each player on the court.

 

[Fitch4Delk00]

Since Carter came he really doesnt get the attention he deserves, but Nash has had two great seasons, with some not well known players and took them far. Jason Kidd did the same thing with the Nets when they went to back 2 back nba championships. Kidd had a bad team he turned K-mart into a superstar and helped RJ mature into what he is now. The rest of the team was really bad but kidd made it work. In those 2 seasons nash coulda won the mvp award but he never got the attention. So I cant see how you can say nash is better in two seasons. Two whoever said defense isnt important at the point is wrong, if you can lead your team and stop the others teams point then there gonna have a hard time setting the tempo for the game.

 

[Pakman]

I'd say Jason Kidd and Nash both have equal talent on their teams. Its how much Nash improves his team which gives him the edge over Nets. When Nets signed with Suns, nobody thought they would do so well, they overachieved. Nash made the players around him well known and so much better. When Carter signed with Nets, Nets were expected to do good, if not amazing. But, they underachieved. Sure, Kidd is a good poing guard, but that didn't make the Nets much better.

Nash's success translated over to Suns record. Jason Kidd's succes has translated into wins also, but not nearly the same impact as Nash has had.

Two advantage Nash and Kidd have on each other are:
Nash's shooting
Kidd's defense

and I think they equal each other out, so all I'd compare is their passing skills and how they make their team better.

Nash shoots a much higher percentage and hands out more assists. But Kidd kills Nash in rebounding. Then again, Nash has better rebounders on the team like Marion and Amare.

 

[NJNetz]

<div class="quote_poster">Pakman Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'd say Jason Kidd and Nash both have equal talent on their teams. Its how much Nash improves his team which gives him the edge over Nets. When Nets signed with Suns, nobody thought they would do so well, they overachieved. Nash made the players around him well known and so much better. When Carter signed with Nets, Nets were expected to do good, if not amazing. But, they underachieved. Sure, Kidd is a good poing guard, but that didn't make the Nets much better.

Nash's success translated over to Suns record. Jason Kidd's succes has translated into wins also, but not nearly the same impact as Nash has had.

Two advantage Nash and Kidd have on each other are:
Nash's shooting
Kidd's defense

and I think they equal each other out, so all I'd compare is their passing skills and how they make their team better.

Nash shoots a much higher percentage and hands out more assists. But Kidd kills Nash in rebounding. Then again, Nash has better rebounders on the team like Marion and Amare.</div>


So tell me, what kind of impact did Kidd bring to Dallas when he was drafted in '94? His level of game gave Dallas 23 more wins than the previous year.

How about when he came to the Suns? What happened after he left? Yea they were winning around 23 games per season after his departure.

What kind of impact has Kidd made on the Nets? 2 finals appearances and more.

I could get into detail if you want. It's funny how people tend to forget the things Kidd brings to any team he is on.

3 different teams, same high level of play by Kidd.

 

[Fitch4Delk00]

Exactly what I was saying people forget what kidd did Nash is just doing the same thing kidd did with the nets.

 

[phunDamentalz]

<div class="quote_poster">fitch4delk00 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly what I was saying people forget what kidd did Nash is just doing the same thing kidd did with the nets.</div>
true, but there has been a bias in favor of the western conference the last few years. people just don't think the East is at the same level.

 

[AMS_ICE]

<div class="quote_poster">Pakman Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'd say Jason Kidd and Nash both have equal talent on their teams. Its how much Nash improves his team which gives him the edge over Nets. When Nets signed with Suns, nobody thought they would do so well, they overachieved. Nash made the players around him well known and so much better. When Carter signed with Nets, Nets were expected to do good, if not amazing. But, they underachieved. Sure, Kidd is a good poing guard, but that didn't make the Nets much better.

Nash's success translated over to Suns record. Jason Kidd's succes has translated into wins also, but not nearly the same impact as Nash has had.

Two advantage Nash and Kidd have on each other are:
Nash's shooting
Kidd's defense

and I think they equal each other out, so all I'd compare is their passing skills and how they make their team better.

Nash shoots a much higher percentage and hands out more assists. But Kidd kills Nash in rebounding. Then again, Nash has better rebounders on the team like Marion and Amare.</div>

First of all. What are talking about? When Nash went to the Suns, he already had notable players in Marion, Amare, etc. Where has he led them huh? When Kidd was traded to New Jersey, who did he have? Kittles, Van Horn? A young Kenyon? And where did he take them? 2 straight EAST RINGS! As for passing. Kidd is the better passer. Why? You said it yourself, Nash is the better shooter, so when he has nowhere to go after running around in circles and he get doubled up, it's common sense to find the open man. Kidd on the otherhand can find people regardless if he's double teamed or not. Kidd doesn't have to dribble as much to create situations for his teammates. And for someone who doesn't shoot well, he commands more respect from the defenders simply because they how much of a threat he is. Nash' game starts and ends with his shooting. And that's a FACT. Nash is the better shooter of the two, in fact Kidd's shooting is nowhere near Nash'. But Kidd gets rebounds, plays excellent D, amazing court vision, incredible during clutch situations and is a leader. So yeah, Nash is better because he scores more. That's what a PG does right?

 

[Chutney]

The East was and still is a hell of a lot weaker than the West. How far do you think those Nets would've gone in the Western Conference?

Anyways, all this talk about the past is irrelevant. The question is who would you choose now. And its no longer a clear cut decision. You could make a decent argument for both.

 

[AMS_ICE]

I'd choose Kidd anytime of the day over Nash. But here's a good one. I'll take Nash as the shooting guard alongside Kidd. That's one hell of a backcourt. Nash would probably average 25+ points a game.