The Veritable Quandary to Close - say it ain't so?!?!?!

[ripcityboy]

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[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Sorry, I can stop bickering. Really, I can.

What was your favorite dish at the VQ?

It's all good.

And so is the food. I have never had anything there that I didn't like. The bacon-wrapped dates were the one thing we always got every single time. If anyone came to town, we took them there and ordered the dates (our guests were almost always afraid until they took a bite, and would then request another order).

Otherwise..... their grilled pizzas are the bomb, duck confit spring rolls, rabbit pate, the ribeye was bomb, they always have a white fish I like, and their VQ burger is basic but delicious (and stacked with fries - price appears to have gone up, but for a long time, it was a steal at $10).

For breakfast/brunch, the King's Plate or Eggs Benedict. Their Bloody Marys are bomb, too.

 

[Denny Crane]

So now you want all the businesses that are downtown and built off the fact that the courthouses are down there to go out of business. You want all the lawyers, all the police, all the guards, all the Portland Citizens to have to drive a half hour away and spend all that extra money commuting so as to not use land that is already owned by the govt. You want all the extra prisoner transport busses and jail trips to come out of my pocket to keep a porch alive? I know you are trying to defend a position from a long ways away and aren't familiar with PDX, but this is actually a pretty good idea. The nearest dump would be 20 min without traffic and 45min-1h with traffic. I understand feeling bad for the VQ, they are getting a raw deal having to close, but there are citywide interests that affect thousands of people every day and unfortunately causing the closing of one business might be the best option. And if they moved to the dump, what about the taco stand or the vacuum store that would need to be displaced out that way.

Now, in total honesty I'm not sure that consolidating is that important. Safety-standard improvements are required which is the impetus for this build, but I'm really not sure how the total financials would break down. The nice thing is that with the new courthouses being built, it should free up some more prime real-estate for other businesses to move into or build on where some of the old courthouses are. But who knows what the govt will actually do with those properties. Some of those courthouses are in extremely prime locations.

Government is inconvenient. You have to go wait in line at the DMV to get a license so you won't get thrown in jail if a policeman pulls you over. If you serve on a jury, they pay you a pittance ($10/day or $25/day after day 2), you are compensated $.20/mile or for TriMet fares. Government is simply inconvenient, as I said.

It is what it is. I don't want more of it. I have no sympathy for the government employees, lawyers, police, guards, etc.

Whatever the government was doing all along, the restaurant thrived. Whatever it is doing now is killing it. Government should do no harm.

 

[Further]

It's all good.

And so is the food. I have never had anything there that I didn't like. The bacon-wrapped dates were the one thing we always got every single time. If anyone came to town, we took them there and ordered the dates (our guests were almost always afraid until they took a bite, and would then request another order).

Otherwise..... their grilled pizzas are the bomb, duck confit spring rolls, rabbit pate, the ribeye was bomb, they always have a white fish I like, and their VQ burger is basic but delicious (and stacked with fries - price appears to have gone up, but for a long time, it was a steal at $10).

For breakfast/brunch, the King's Plate or Eggs Benedict. Their Bloody Marys are bomb, too.

my mouth is watering thinking about all that. They also had a salad with an egg on butter lettuce with bacon and a bunch of other stuff that was one of my favorite salads in town, although higher in calories than any salad i've ever had. You are right about the burger and fries a bar favorite for certain.

Have you been to Toro Bravo? They also have bacon wrapped dates that are out of this world.

 

[Further]

Government is inconvenient. You have to go wait in line at the DMV to get a license so you won't get thrown in jail if a policeman pulls you over. If you serve on a jury, they pay you a pittance ($10/day or $25/day after day 2), you are compensated $.20/mile or for TriMet fares. Government is simply inconvenient, as I said.

It is what it is. I don't want more of it. I have no sympathy for the government employees, lawyers, police, guards, etc.

Whatever the government was doing all along, the restaurant thrived. Whatever it is doing now is killing it. Government should do no harm.

Although I can get with that sentiment, I think it's overly simplified and impossible. There can't ever be any govt that causes no harm, hopefully it just causes very little and does far more good than bad. I know you might be fine with no govt, but I'm not. I like streets and hate rape.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

Toro Bravo.... yes, a few times. Our Oregon winery does a "Bravo" blend for them. They are owned by the same people that own the two Tasty's restaurants and MEC (Mediterranean Exploration Company). Toro Bravo did these lamb shank pies that were severed at the Grand Dinner at IPNC last summer - ridiculously amazing.

You should check out MEC next time you're in town - that place is the ish.

 

[Denny Crane]

Although I can get with that sentiment, I think it's overly simplified and impossible. There can't ever be any govt that causes no harm, hopefully it just causes very little and does far more good than bad. I know you might be fine with no govt, but I'm not. I like streets and hate rape.

"No govt." is for anarchists. I'm no anarchist. I believe in the right amount of government and not any more than that. As little government as required - and it is required.

Who does government harm by building this new courthouse near the dump? (Pick anywhere else that doesn't put people out of business).

If it's a matter of degree how inconvenient government is to deal with, it's already inconvenient.

The government could do right by the restaurant if it insists on building the courthouse at this location. Eminent domain and buy the restaurant and other surrounding businesses (if any) that it is about to destroy. The owner gets paid fair market value and maybe can open in a new location instead of declaring bankruptcy.

It's a win for government, too, because it gets to collect sales tax on the food served and sales tax on whatever the employees buy.

 

[Further]

Toro Bravo.... yes, a few times. Our Oregon winery does a "Bravo" blend for them. They are owned by the same people that own the two Tasty's restaurants and MEC (Mediterranean Exploration Company). Toro Bravo did these lamb shank pies that were severed at the Grand Dinner at IPNC last summer - ridiculously amazing.

You should check out MEC next time you're in town - that place is the ish.

Awesome, I will. Love the tasty's and Toro Bravo is certainly one of my top five restaurants in PDX. I like going to Toro Bravo and for something like $35 you leave your selections up to the chef and they bring you out 7 or 8 dishes. Usually a couple of those dishes are things I would have never selected on my own, and I always end up impressed by them.

I don't think I have ever gotten the Bravo blend but I have had a bunch of awesome wines there, so I totally trust their wine buying. Next time I'll go that route.

By the way, I'm looking for a decent Dolcetto, any recommendations?

 

[Further]

"No govt." is for anarchists. I'm no anarchist. I believe in the right amount of government and not any more than that. As little government as required - and it is required.

Who does government harm by building this new courthouse near the dump? (Pick anywhere else that doesn't put people out of business).

If it's a matter of degree how inconvenient government is to deal with, it's already inconvenient.

The government could do right by the restaurant if it insists on building the courthouse at this location. Eminent domain and buy the restaurant and other surrounding businesses (if any) that it is about to destroy. The owner gets paid fair market value and maybe can open in a new location instead of declaring bankruptcy.

It's a win for government, too, because it gets to collect sales tax on the food served and sales tax on whatever the employees buy.

I actually wouldn't be opposed to paying fair market for the restaurant, but operating govt like that does open some doors for possible abuse. Not that it would in this case.

Glad you aren't an anarchist, I actually knew you weren't. Sorry if I mischaracterized you.

By building the courthouse elsewhere it harms most citizens would would have to travel further (if we moved it far enough that we weren't encroaching on other businesses). It would harm all the food carts, the copy centers, the coffee shops ..... that stay in business because of the central nature of all things legal downtown. It would hurt the taxpayers because they would need to spend more to transport between Jail and courthouse. You can say you don't care about lawyers and such, but they are business people too, and it would hurt them. A couple years ago I was fined for some BS and needed to contest it. I won, and it only took me about 45 minutes. If the courthouse were moved out of downtown (required to not displace businesses) it would have harmed me by taking much more of my time.

 

[Denny Crane]

I actually wouldn't be opposed to paying fair market for the restaurant, but operating govt like that does open some doors for possible abuse. Not that it would in this case.

Glad you aren't an anarchist, I actually knew you weren't. Sorry if I mischaracterized you.

By building the courthouse elsewhere it harms most citizens would would have to travel further (if we moved it far enough that we weren't encroaching on other businesses). It would harm all the food carts, the copy centers, the coffee shops ..... that stay in business because of the central nature of all things legal downtown. It would hurt the taxpayers because they would need to spend more to transport between Jail and courthouse. You can say you don't care about lawyers and such, but they are business people too, and it would hurt them. A couple years ago I was fined for some BS and needed to contest it. I won, and it only took me about 45 minutes. If the courthouse were moved out of downtown (required to not displace businesses) it would have harmed me by taking much more of my time.

That citizens have to travel, they get reimbursed. Their time is worth $25/day to the government.

Your anecdote doesn't reflect well on government.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

There are some nice Dolcettos out there imported from Italy in the $16-22 range, but the quantities imported are fairly scarce, so availability between markets is somewhat limited. I had a nice one from Sobrero (I'd never heard of them before, but someone brought it out at a small work-related gathering) about 5 months ago, actually.

There are a couple of I've tried with fruit sourced from Yakima Valley (Wild Rose or Wind Rose or something along those lines?? - and Tranche Cellars). It's not a wine I drink a ton of, but when the food calls for it, it's a nice wine to have around.

 

[Further]

That citizens have to travel, they get reimbursed. Their time is worth $25/day to the government.

Your anecdote doesn't reflect well on government.

citizens aren't just jury members but people filing for permits, fighting tickets, getting zoning allowances, getting firearm carry licenses and a plethora of other tasks.

 

[Denny Crane]

citizens aren't just jury members but people filing for permits, fighting tickets, getting zoning allowances, getting firearm carry licenses and a plethora of other tasks.

I had to drive 15+ miles to get a building permit for some work on my house. The inspector came, looked around for 3 minutes and signed off. All it cost me was $500 for nothing. My wait there was about 5x longer than the drive took.

The 15 miles wasn't convenient, but government isn't either.

 

[Further]

There are some nice Dolcettos out there imported from Italy in the $16-22 range, but the quantities imported are fairly scarce, so availability between markets is somewhat limited. I had a nice one from Sobrero (I'd never heard of them before, but someone brought it out at a small work-related gathering) about 5 months ago, actually.

There are a couple of I've tried with fruit sourced from Yakima Valley (Wild Rose or Wind Rose or something along those lines?? - and Tranche Cellars). It's not a wine I drink a ton of, but when the food calls for it, it's a nice wine to have around.

I had no idea tranche had one. I'm interested in trying more because I've been looking at viticulture/climate preferences and it seems like a perfect grape for the area, and from the few I've had it seems very approachable and flavorful. I love the idea of making some wines that aren't exploited in a market like here in WW where customers are a bit more adventurous. Counoise, Carmenere, Abarino and Torrontes are a few of the more obscure varietals that you can find locally, and i really enjoy all of them. I need to check into Tranche.

 

[Denny Crane]

I forgot to mention that I had called the city and they told me I could go to the nearest office. When I got there and after waiting, they made me go downtown.

Another time I went to city hall, which is about 60 miles from many places in San Diego, to file some papers. There were 6 windows where workers could help people. There was only one open. After waiting in line for an hour, I got the front and saw 5 people sitting at a table behind the counter playing cards. The 5 people helped get the mayor elected in return for their "jobs."

Anticapitalists rant on and on about how corporations get sued because they're criminal. Government gets sued WAY more. Makes me wonder (NOT).

 

[Further]

I had to drive 15+ miles to get a building permit for some work on my house. The inspector came, looked around for 3 minutes and signed off. All it cost me was $500 for nothing. My wait there was about 5x longer than the drive took.

The 15 miles wasn't convenient, but government isn't either.

So, lets make it less convenient?

 

[Denny Crane]

So, lets make it less convenient?

It doesn't matter if it's more or less convenient.

It matters more that 20 people get to keep their jobs and the citizens get to keep going to a favorite restaurant.

 

[barfo]

If it's a matter of degree how inconvenient government is to deal with, it's already inconvenient.

As already pointed out in the thread, that argument makes no sense whatsoever.

The government could do right by the restaurant if it insists on building the courthouse at this location. Eminent domain and buy the restaurant and other surrounding businesses (if any) that it is about to destroy. The owner gets paid fair market value and maybe can open in a new location instead of declaring bankruptcy.

First of all, the restaurant did not declare bankruptcy. Second, they negotiated a sale price with the government. You would rather the government force them to sell via eminent domain?
What kind of a libertarian are you?

It's a win for government, too, because it gets to collect sales tax on the food served and sales tax on whatever the employees buy.

Uh, Denny, there is no sales tax in Oregon.

barfo

 

[Further]

I've had to go to the courthouse once here in WW after getting a speeding ticket. I walked in, told them why I was there, they pointed me to an office where a judge heard me, reduced my fine and sent me on my way. Took less than 5 minutes. Small town living is great sometimes. Getting my carry license was a bit longer since I also had to get fingerprinted at the jail, but still didn't take too long.

 

[Further]

It doesn't matter if it's more or less convenient.

It matters more that 20 people get to keep their jobs and the citizens get to keep going to a favorite restaurant.

It certainly matters that its more or less convenient. Less convenient means they need to hire more employees, reimburse more for travel, pay more for prisoner transport, etc. That charges the taxpayer more. That matters.

 

[barfo]

Another time I went to city hall, which is about 60 miles from many places in San Diego, to file some papers. There were 6 windows where workers could help people. There was only one open. After waiting in line for an hour, I got the front and saw 5 people sitting at a table behind the counter playing cards. The 5 people helped get the mayor elected in return for their "jobs."

And how exactly would you know that? Did they tell you?

Government workers get break time. Shocking, but true.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

It certainly matters that its more or less convenient. Less convenient means they need to hire more employees, reimburse more for travel, pay more for prisoner transport, etc. That charges the taxpayer more. That matters.

If you like big government, the more inconvenient the better. It's as simple as that.

You are talking about saving nickels when the government is spending $billions.

 

[Denny Crane]

And how exactly would you know that? Did they tell you?

Government workers get break time. Shocking, but true.

barfo

An hour plus of break time to play cards.

Our ideas about how government should function clearly differ. I don't want to pay $.01 for workers to play cards. Or that's all they should do.

 

[Further]

If you like big government, the more inconvenient the better. It's as simple as that.

You are talking about saving nickels when the government is spending $billions.

Big Government is dead

 

[Denny Crane]

As already pointed out in the thread, that argument makes no sense whatsoever.



First of all, the restaurant did not declare bankruptcy. Second, they negotiated a sale price with the government. You would rather the government force them to sell via eminent domain?
What kind of a libertarian are you?



Uh, Denny, there is no sales tax in Oregon.

barfo

They didn't negotiate a sale price. The owner had no choice to sell. Eminent domain requires the government to pay fair market value, at least. The owner tried to convince the government to let his business succeed but the government didn't make it possible.

If the city zoned all the spaces for parking at the restaurant as 5 minute loading zones, they can offer a lowball price.

Bankruptcy is the wrong word. The owner would only be made whole if he had his restaurant fully functional and making him similar money somewhere else.

But maybe his business will file bankruptcy.

 

[barfo]

Our ideas about how government should function clearly differ.

Oh? I could have sworn we were on the same page.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

Oh? I could have sworn we were on the same page.

barfo

An hour plus of break time to play cards.

Our ideas about how government should function clearly differ. I don't want to pay $.01 for workers to play cards. Or that's all they should do.

 

[barfo]

They didn't negotiate a sale price. The owner had no choice to sell. Eminent domain requires the government to pay fair market value, at least. The owner tried to convince the government to let his business succeed but the government didn't make it possible.

I'm sorry, Denny, but that is just literally incorrect. They DID negotiate a sale price, and the government was NOT the only potential buyer. The owner did not have to sell to the government. He chose to.

If the city zoned all the spaces for parking at the restaurant as 5 minute loading zones, they can offer a lowball price.

Sure, but (a) there aren't any, and (b) the government didn't do that.

Bankruptcy is the wrong word.

It certainly is.

The owner would only be made whole if he had his restaurant fully functional and making him similar money somewhere else.

But maybe his business will file bankruptcy.

I don't see how it possibly could. I haven't seen his books, but I'd be very surprised if he wasn't hugely profitable, plus he just cashed out the building.

barfo

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

I had no idea tranche had one. I'm interested in trying more because I've been looking at viticulture/climate preferences and it seems like a perfect grape for the area, and from the few I've had it seems very approachable and flavorful. I love the idea of making some wines that aren't exploited in a market like here in WW where customers are a bit more adventurous. Counoise, Carmenere, Abarino and Torrontes are a few of the more obscure varietals that you can find locally, and i really enjoy all of them. I need to check into Tranche.

That sounds fun. I like the rarer varietals, or lesser-known. You don't see much of those varieties around, though Carmenere and Albarino generally seem a little more common than the other two. We used to drink a fair amount of an inexpensive Chilean Carmenere - I mean at least a bottle a week, but I cannot remember the winery at the moment. There was a vintage or two where I think Las Rocas had an interesting Carmenere, but the more recent stuff wasn't as interesting. I love a good Albarino, though. Abacela in Southern Oregon makes one I find pretty impressive. We import one from Spain that is the tits - I'll actually be visiting the producer in April.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Another time I went to city hall, which is about 60 miles from many places in San Diego, to file some papers. There were 6 windows where workers could help people. There was only one open. After waiting in line for an hour, I got the front and saw 5 people sitting at a table behind the counter playing cards. The 5 people helped get the mayor elected in return for their "jobs."

When was this?