The Will Barton Trade

[KingSpeed]

Starting to look like the worst trade in Blazers history. No hyperbole. Look at what we gave away and what we have to show for it. It may be why Neil/Paul may be scared to make a trade this month. It would suck to see Crabbe or Leonard blow up on another team.

 

[Blazers Roy]

I don't know Brah, Chris Paul for Martell Webster was worse in my opinion.

 

[WillG]

I was furious when Will was traded (as a throw in no less) after he was one of our best players in the playoffs.
Then Stotts benched him and he was traded as an average filler player.

Barton was rough around the edges but was a straight up baller. A little out of control - yes, but the talent was clear.
Once again another player that doesn't develop under Stotts.

 

[Blazers Roy]

I was furious when Will was traded (as a throw in no less) after he was one of our best players in the playoffs.
Then Stotts benched him and he was traded as an average filler player.

Barton was rough around the edges but was a straight up baller. A little out of control - yes, but the talent was clear.
Once again another player that doesn't develop under Stotts.

Yea, i think Stotts is not so good with young players. He tries to give them a real chance in one game, then 2 minutes in the 1st quarter of the next game and then they are relegated to the end of the bench while he is smiling at them.

Look at Pop, he puts a player in ,yells at him if he makes a mistake and then puts him back in.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I was furious when Will was traded (as a throw in no less) after he was one of our best players in the playoffs.
Then Stotts benched him and he was traded as an average filler player.

Barton was rough around the edges but was a straight up baller. A little out of control - yes, but the talent was clear.
Once again another player that doesn't develop under Stotts.

The trade was a wake up call for Barton. Go back and look at his shooting percentages in POR (.198 3FG% in 2.5 seasons). At the time of the trade, we had a healthy Wes, Nic Batum, as well as emerging players C.J. McCollum and Allen Crabbe, who were all MUCH better shooters ahead of Barton in the rotation. Where, exactly was Stotts supposed to play him?

After the trade, Barton spent the following summer working his ass off to develop a 3-point shot. It wasn't Stotts holding him back, it was Barton's lack of a reliable shot. Getting traded gave him the motivation to improve his shooting. Credit to Barton for putting in the work. Too bad it took getting traded to make it happen.

As good as he's been in DEN, they are looking to trade him. So, it's not like he's undependable. I think the trade came down to him or Crabbe, and since Crabbe had already shown signs of being a much better shooter, that's what sealed Barton's fate.

Worst trade in Blazers history? Not even close to giving away Moses Malone for a future 1st round pick. Can you imagine how good a three man rotation of Walton, Lucas and Malone would have been? With Malone stepping in to the starting line up when Walton went down. Moses went on to play 19 seasons in the NBA, was a 12 time NBA all star, 3 time MVP and first ballot Hall of Famer. Unless Barton ends up having a Hall of Fame career, trading him doesn't even deserve consideration as the worst trade in Blazers history.

BNM

 

[WillG]

The young players may not need a 'Baptism of Fire' , but do need to be on the actual floor, for consistent minutes.
They need to be able to play through their mistakes to be able to use them as a learning tool.

Whilst Terry has some X and O brilliance here and there; he is not to good at game management or development from what I've seen.

 

[WillG]

I can understand his percentages, from his time at Portland, look bad on paper - but was it the trade that made Barton better, or was it that he was able to play under a coach who has a better system, has confidence in him and doesn't yank him at the first mistake.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Yea, i think Stotts is not so good with young players. He tries to give them a real chance in one game, then 2 minutes in the 1st quarter of the next game and then they are relegated to the end of the bench while he is smiling at them.

Look at Pop, he puts a player in ,yells at him if he makes a mistake and then puts him back in.

So, Stotts doesn't get credit or developing Lillard, McCollum or Crabbe? There are only so many minutes to go around. That was a veteran team with established players and only so many minutes available for the younger players. Was Stotts supposed to give C.J.'s minutes and Crabbe's minutes to Barton? Then we'd all be bitching about how Stotts didn't develop C.J. and Crabbe.

If this team fails to develop young players, it's their big men that are neglected, and I blame that more on the lack of a legitimate big man coach than I do Terry Stotts. Meyers has regressed since they fired Kim Hughes and Vonleh hasn't shown any real progress. Our young big men lack basic big man skills because they lack an actual big man coach. Rather than hire someone who actually has those skills, they chose to promote a 6'7" small forward (and not a very good one at that) from video coordinator and pretend he's a big man coach. There is no limit on how many assistant coaches you can have. They could have promoted him AND hired a real big man coach. They chose not to, and it show.

BNM

 

[Boob-No-More]

I can understand his percentages, from his time at Portland, look bad on paper - but was it the trade that made Barton better, or was it that he was able to play under a coach who has a better system, has confidence in him and doesn't yank him at the first mistake.

Barton got more minutes his rookie year than Crabbe got in his first two season combined. He also got nearly twice as many minutes as a rookie as C.J. did. He had his chances. This wasn't even a Jermaine O'Neal for Dale Davis situation. Barton wasn't a future 6-time all star just waiting to bust out with ore playing time.

Moses for draft pick, Jermaine for DD and Brian Grant for a fat, drug addicted Shawn Kemp were all FAR, FAR worse trades.

BNM

 

[WillG]

Yes I would have played Barton over Crabbe. Barton showed a well rounded game in those playoffs and an ability to score form nothing.
Absolutely we need a big man coach.

Lillard and CJ were both 4 year college players that just needed a bit of NBA polish and experience. I absolutely do not credit Terry for their development - in fact they would be better had they had more discipline intstilled in them under a better coach.

And yes I do think Terry does not do a good job of developing young players; big or small.
Just look at what they are doing with, first Myers, and now Vonleh. Crabbe is a shell of what he could be. (sorry couldn't resist )

 

[Strenuus]

If Wes doesnt go down, this trade isn't talked about as "that bad".

It can't be the worst trade in blazer history if the reason it was even bad was something that no one could have seen happened.

So yes, it is hyperbole.

 

[WillG]

I don't think Barton is some undercover HOF just waiting to bust out. I just think he showed some great play in the playoffs.
Was he rewarded and groomed? no he was relegated to the end of the bench.

And that trade is certainly not even in the ballpark of worst trades.

I just happened to like Wills abilty to push the break, score in bunches, rebound and he was developing some passing too.
He just had a very different skillset to the rest of our guys and I liked that addition to our roster at the time.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Yes I would have played Barton over Crabbe. Barton showed a well rounded game in those playoffs and an ability to score form nothing.
Absolutely we need a big man coach.

Lillard and CJ were both 4 year college players that just needed a bit of NBA polish and experience. I absolutely do not credit Terry for their development - in fact they would be better had they had more discipline intstilled in them under a better coach.

And yes I do think Terry does not do a good job of developing young players; big or small.
Just look at what they are doing with, first Myers, and now Vonleh. Crabbe is a shell of what he could be. (sorry couldn't resist )

If there is anything holding Crabbe back, it's his lack of a quality handle. That's what separates him from Lillard and McCollum. Is Crabbe's lack of a handle Stotts' fault? That seems like an individual skill a player should work on in the off season, not something that gets worked on during the regular season. It's not like Crabbe isn't getting minutes. He was 4th on the team in minutes played last year and is 3rd this year. It's not lack of opportunity that's holding him back, it's a lack of talent/skill.

Wes Matthews also lacked a quality handle, but worked hard on improving his individual skills during the off season. One year, he came back with that step back 3-pointer. The next, he came back with an improved post up game. He developed those skills during the off season and Stotts found a way to take advantage of Wesley's improved skills. Wes has his best years as a pro while playing for Stotts.

It's easy to point the finger at the head coach when a young player doesn't continually improve, but it really comes down too how hard the player works to improve himself. Lillard, McCollum and Matthews all have that drive. I have not seen it from Crabbe. He got paid the big bucks and came back the exact same one-dimensional player he's always been. He's a great spot up shooter, but that's all he is. If he WANTS a bigger role, he needs to work as hard on self-improvement as Matthews, Lillard and McCllum did.

BNM

 

[WillG]

Yes, I agree with a lot of what you've posted there ( as usual).


But I'm just not a fan of the Stotts modus operandi.

When I see players making the same mistakes over and over, and making even basic, fundamental mistakes time and time again- I cannot believe they are getting the best tuition and direction at practices.

Personally I think our whole group of players would be better under a coach who has a different style. Probably discipline (and accountability) being at the top of the list of what is needed.

 

[Blazers Roy]

So, Stotts doesn't get credit or developing Lillard, McCollum or Crabbe? There are only so many minutes to go around. That was a veteran team with established players and only so many minutes available for the younger players. Was Stotts supposed to give C.J.'s minutes and Crabbe's minutes to Barton? Then we'd all be bitching about how Stotts didn't develop C.J. and Crabbe.

If this team fails to develop young players, it's their big men that are neglected, and I blame that more on the lack of a legitimate big man coach than I do Terry Stotts. Meyers has regressed since they fired Kim Hughes and Vonleh hasn't shown any real progress. Our young big men lack basic big man skills because they lack an actual big man coach. Rather than hire someone who actually has those skills, they chose to promote a 6'7" small forward (and not a very good one at that) from video coordinator and pretend he's a big man coach. There is no limit on how many assistant coaches you can have. They could have promoted him AND hired a real big man coach. They chose not to, and it show.

BNM

-Lillard had 23 and 11 in his NBA debut.
-CJ was predicted by some people to win ROY before the season even started, i read interviews with him and everything he said he will improve he actually worked on and improved (aside from defense).
-Crabbe was a great shooter in college and his draftexpress page tells us he had those pull-up jumpers and floaters in the lane in his college days as well.

He did put them in good situations to score and blossom as scorers, although he should've made Lillard a much more efficient scorer imo, but i'm not going to stand here and act as if Stotts was a primary reason for their development.

Although i fully agree on the need for a big man coach, i think that Meyers has regressed because his coach allowed him to regress. He is obviously strong enough to handle every big man in the league and he can shoot from more spots on the floor, why is he standing outside the three point line all day?
Lamarcus had plays designed for him where he would literally get a wide open shot from the midrange, why can't we do some of those for Meyers? He needs a coach that will get him out of his comfort zone and Stotts is doing the exact opposite.

I said it a lot of times: we can do a lot worse than Terry Stotts, but i won't pretend that he's a very good coach.

 

[BBert]

The trade was a wake up call for Barton. Go back and look at his shooting percentages in POR (.198 3FG% in 2.5 seasons). At the time of the trade, we had a healthy Wes, Nic Batum, as well as emerging players C.J. McCollum and Allen Crabbe, who were all MUCH better shooters ahead of Barton in the rotation. Where, exactly was Stotts supposed to play him?

After the trade, Barton spent the following summer working his ass off to develop a 3-point shot. It wasn't Stotts holding him back, it was Barton's lack of a reliable shot. Getting traded gave him the motivation to improve his shooting. Credit to Barton for putting in the work. Too bad it took getting traded to make it happen.

As good as he's been in DEN, they are looking to trade him. So, it's not like he's undependable. I think the trade came down to him or Crabbe, and since Crabbe had already shown signs of being a much better shooter, that's what sealed Barton's fate.

Worst trade in Blazers history? Not even close to giving away Moses Malone for a future 1st round pick. Can you imagine how good a three man rotation of Walton, Lucas and Malone would have been? With Malone stepping in to the starting line up when Walton went down. Moses went on to play 19 seasons in the NBA, was a 12 time NBA all star, 3 time MVP and first ballot Hall of Famer. Unless Barton ends up having a Hall of Fame career, trading him doesn't even deserve consideration as the worst trade in Blazers history.

BNM

I was upset when we traded Malone, and it still makes me sick to my stomach when I think about it. Not only would he have stepped in for Walton when he went down, one might argue that with Malone, we could have let Walton nurse his injuries more, and not played him when he was in fact injured, which cost us the playoffs and cost Walton a good chunk of his career.

 

[Boob-No-More]

I was upset when we traded Malone, and it still makes me sick to my stomach when I think about it. Not only would he have stepped in for Walton when he went down, one might argue that with Malone, we could have let Walton nurse his injuries more, and not played him when he was in fact injured, which cost us the playoffs and cost Walton a good chunk of his career.

Given our history with injured centers (Walton, Bowie, Oden, etc.) it is cruelly ironic that the one we let go had a very long, very healthy career. Moses is 6th all time in both games and minutes played.

He played long enough he would have bridged the Walton and Drexler eras. He was still playing 81 games and putting up 19/10 with a PER = 20.2 in 89-90 when we went to the finals and two years later, when we went to the finals again, he played all 82 games and put up 16/9 with a PER = 19.2.

Oh, what could have been. Back then, the Blazers were just too cheap to pay to keep him. They only took him in the ABA dispersal draft because they new they could trade him for a future draft pick.

Again, cruelly ironic that we let Moses go because we didn't want to pay his $350K salary and now we are on the hook for $75 million for our back up shooting guard.

BNM

 

[Sinobas]

If Wes doesnt go down, this trade isn't talked about as "that bad".

It can't be the worst trade in blazer history if the reason it was even bad was something that no one could have seen happened.

So yes, it is hyperbole.

So not true. Afflalo would have still bolted for nothing, and Barton would have still become very good on the Nuggets, and we'd still have lost our 1st round draft pick.

 

[Sinobas]

I was upset when we traded Malone, and it still makes me sick to my stomach when I think about it. Not only would he have stepped in for Walton when he went down, one might argue that with Malone, we could have let Walton nurse his injuries more, and not played him when he was in fact injured, which cost us the playoffs and cost Walton a good chunk of his career.

In the mid 80s we could have had this roster:

Porter / Danny Fucking Young
Jordan / who gives a shit
Drexler/Kersey
Malone/
Sabonis/Walton

HOly shit!!!

 

[Chris Craig]

In the mid 80s we could have had this roster:

Porter / Danny Fucking Young
Jordan / who gives a shit
Drexler/Kersey
Malone/
Sabonis/Walton

HOly shit!!!

We would have been unstoppable!

 

[Rhal]

So not true. Afflalo would have still bolted for nothing, and Barton would have still become very good on the Nuggets, and we'd still have lost our 1st round draft pick.

How do we know we let him bolt? Also that trade was MADE for that season, that is obvious we thought we had a shot at an NBA championship and we took it. Go look at the old Nuggets realgm forum and you will see how pissed off fans were on Denver thinking they got very little value in return for Affalo.

 

[Chris Craig]

Remember when we traded Rasheed Wallace for Abdur - Rahim, Ratliff, and Dickau...

 

[Rhal]

As for everyone getting mad at letting Barton go, he was fun to watch but he was a crazy out of control player who didn't know how to play within himself and couldn't not consistently shoot from anywhere on the court and he needed the ball in his hands to do anything offensively. He wasn't going to set good screens, he wasn't great at moving without the ball, he was more worried about his own shot then making the right play when he did get the ball.

 

[Pinwheel1]

It was a bad trade. One reason why I hate mid season moves if the team is playing well.

A few of you now may say you wanted to keep Barton, but as I recall the question was would he have re-signed since at the time we had Wes and CJ ahead of him on the depth chart.

 

[Boob-No-More]

As for everyone getting mad at letting Barton go, he was fun to watch but he was a crazy out of control player who didn't know how to play within himself and couldn't not consistently shoot from anywhere on the court and he needed the ball in his hands to do anything offensively. He wasn't going to set good screens, he wasn't great at moving without the ball, he was more worried about his own shot then making the right play when he did get the ball.

And the funny thing is, at the time of the trade, many more posters here were more pissed off about losing TRob than Barton. They all thought we gave up on Robinson too soon (just like the other 5 teams that have given up on him ).

And yes, I'm including the Lakers in those five teams. Even though he's 100% healthy, TRob is racking up DNP-CDs for that crappy team. Since he was traded, all of PHI, BRK and LAL, three of the worst teams in the league, have given up on Robinson. When those teams don't want you, you know you're bad.

BNM

 

[dviss1]

Starting to look like the worst trade in Blazers history. No hyperbole. Look at what we gave away and what we have to show for it. It may be why Neil/Paul may be scared to make a trade this month. It would suck to see Crabbe or Leonard blow up on another team.

Hy.
Per.
Bo.
Le.

 

[dviss1]

So not true. Afflalo would have still bolted for nothing, and Barton would have still become very good on the Nuggets, and we'd still have lost our 1st round draft pick.

You don't know that. If we all stayed healthy we were a contender. Afflalo came to be that missing piece and our 6th man.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Not sure why we have to beat a dead horse, but we got a 20 PPG scorer out of the deal. Had we not made the deal, CJ and Barton would both still be vying for minutes, and neither would be as good as they are now.

 

[oldfisherman]

As for everyone getting mad at letting Barton go, he was fun to watch but he was a crazy out of control player who didn't know how to play within himself and couldn't not consistently shoot from anywhere on the court and he needed the ball in his hands to do anything offensively. He wasn't going to set good screens, he wasn't great at moving without the ball, he was more worried about his own shot then making the right play when he did get the ball.

This is exactly what I was going to post.

At the time, I was neutral on the Barton trade, trusting our GM knew more than we did.

 

[BlazerWookee]

Remember when we traded Rasheed Wallace for Abdur - Rahim, Ratliff, and Dickau...

We came out WAY ahead in that one!