They aren't 'Young' anymore

[oldmangrouch]

Remember how Roy was a big star until he was 35? Oh...right....

That's a great example of why you have to go for it when your star is in his prime. Injuries turned Roy from future HOFer to out-of-the-league at a painfully young age. Don't take the future for granted!

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Has any of our players ever released their birth certificates?

 

[illmatic99]

Remember how Roy was a big star until he was 35? Oh...right....

That's a great example of why you have to go for it when your star is in his prime. Injuries turned Roy from future HOFer to out-of-the-league at a painfully young age. Don't take the future for granted!

OK.

Outside of Neil, every single person in the forum understands that we aren't truly young. But Dame isn't Chris Paul either. And Evan Turner won't even be on the roster at age 32.

 

[andalusian]

Has any of our players ever released their birth certificates?

What is this, 2011, we need tax returns, dog.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

It is a valid point, I said as much in my very first response. Neil keeps throwing around the fact that we are one of the youngest rosters in the league in every press conference. We all know that we aren't. But the notion that I disagree with is that Dame et al might be on the downside of his career (" That window is about 2-3 years left for Dame and a year or two more for some of those right behind him").

That's just flat out false. And to support this narrative (it absolutely is one-- i don't know why this word has a negative connotation. This is an opinion based community. more narratives should be encouraged) with ages (wrong) and leaving out Nurk and Collins who are major contributors who aren't close to their primes is just lazy.

Ehh...even considering the apparent error in ages in the OP, I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that the window of Dame being at the level of ability necessary for him to lead a team to a championship is about 3 more seasons. He'll be 32 going into the 22-23 season. How many championships have been won be teams led by players 32 or older, when that player was not the GOAT at his position?

 

[HailBlazers]

Perhaps you all missed what his point was?

The OP didn't say that because we're old, we're in a bad spot, or that the team needs to be torn down and rebuilt, or anything negative.

The OP said that because the team isn't really "young" anymore, now is the time for the FO to "go for it".

Rather than focus on the "numbers" or the "inclusions"--what do you think about the actual point being made? Do you disagree that this is the time to "go for it"? Do you think we should still be focusing on "building"/"developing"? Something else entirely?

Can we perhaps focus slightly less on the trees and actually talk about the forest?

Are you saying you want to meet at Mt. Tabor?

 

[illmatic99]

Ehh...even considering the apparent error in ages in the OP, I think it's completely reasonable to suggest that the window of Dame being at the level of ability necessary for him to lead a team to a championship is about 3 more seasons. He'll be 32 going into the 22. How many championships have been won be teams led by players 32 or older, when that player was not the GOAT at his position?

I have a counter.

Does anyone here believe Dame can be the best player on a championship team ever in his career? I think a conference finals (maybe a finals run if things break right) is the absolute ceiling for a Dame-led team. I think the run this season revealed as much. Point guards struggle this late in the playoffs unless you have the absolute best fits around you (Draymond, etc) or are GOAT shooters.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I have a counter.

Does anyone here believe Dame can be the best player on a championship team ever in his career? I think a conference finals (maybe a finals run if things break right) is the absolute ceiling for a Dame-led team.

Excellent question, which I think is probably deserving of its own thread. Especially considering his presumably soon-to-be-offered supermax.

The current incarnation of the team is based on the assumption that he is good enough to lead a team to a title, with the right surrounding pieces, and I imagine this thread is based on that assumption as well.

 

[oldmangrouch]

I have a counter.

Does anyone here believe Dame can be the best player on a championship team ever in his career? I think a conference finals (maybe a finals run if things break right) is the absolute ceiling for a Dame-led team. I think the run this season revealed as much. Point guards struggle this late in the playoffs unless you have the absolute best fits around you (Draymond, etc) or are GOAT shooters.

Painful to think about. Don't expect a thoughtful discussion on the issue, as the Dame fans seem to outnumber the Blazer fans around here.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

I have a counter.

Does anyone here believe Dame can be the best player on a championship team ever in his career? I think a conference finals (maybe a finals run if things break right) is the absolute ceiling for a Dame-led team. I think the run this season revealed as much. Point guards struggle this late in the playoffs unless you have the absolute best fits around you (Draymond, etc) or are GOAT shooters.

Ok, no team, NO team has ever won with 1 good player and not good fits around them, it doesn't matter if it's Dame, Michael Jordan, Steph Curry, Lebron James... Yes a Dame led team can win if they get the right pieces around him. Just like Steph would not have won without the right Pieces around him, or MJ, Lebron, or Kareem.
I think it's weird when this argument is made like oh you can't win with a Dame led team without good fits around them, who has won without good fits around them in the history of the NBA?

 

[illmatic99]

Painful to think about. Don't expect a thoughtful discussion on the issue, as the Dame fans seem to outnumber the Blazer fans around here.

Not really THAT painful. I'm the biggest Dame fan in the eastern time zone, but I can accept that things have to be absolutely perfect for us to win a title with him as the sole leader. He is unequivocally a top 10 player and I see him sustaining this til his mid thirties given how smart and well-conditioned he is. But he needs to be top 5 to lead us to titles.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Ok, no team, NO team has ever won with 1 good player and not good fits around them, it doesn't matter if it's Dame, Michael Jordan, Steph Curry, Lebron James... Yes a Dame led team can win if they get the right pieces around him. Just like Steph would not have won without the right Pieces around him, or MJ, Lebron, or Kareem.
I think it's weird when this argument is made like oh you can't win with a Dame led team without good fits around them, who has won without good fits around them in the history of the NBA?

Obviously he needs the right fits around him. But what define the "right fits"? If he can be so thoroughly neutralized by high traps, what kind of "right fits" would be necessary to build a championship roster around him? Does one of those "right fits" need to be a player that is better than him?

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Painful to think about. Don't expect a thoughtful discussion on the issue, as the Dame fans seem to outnumber the Blazer fans around here.

Well, I am a Dame fan, I don't think he's Steph, Lebron, KD, Kobe, Micheal, or whatever but I think as with all of those guys, you put the right pieces around them and they "could" win. Not even the best basketball players in the leagues history won without good fits. It's not about thinking wow Dame's so good he can without any help. I think what this year really proved was that a.) They really need Nurkic, and b.) gotta have more consistent production from the 3/4 because Dame can't win it without the right pieces around him. No one else could either though...

 

[illmatic99]

Obviously he needs the right fits around him. But what define the "right fits"? If he can be so thoroughly neutralized by high traps, what kind of "right fits" would be necessary to build a championship roster around him? Does one of those "right fits" need to be a player that is better than him?

The only scenario where Dame can win a title as the leader is probably similar to what happened with Dirk in 2011. Or maybe Detroit in 04. He needs to get hot like he did against OKC, and we need perfect complementary pieces to address his weaknesses (traps/defense) at an elite level, and our opponents will need to not be ready or in turmoil (MIA/LAL).

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Obviously he needs the right fits around him. But what define the "right fits"? If he can be so thoroughly neutralized by high traps, what kind of "right fits" would be necessary to build a championship roster around him? Does one of those "right fits" need to be a player that is better than him?

I don't think it has to be "better" than him, he's arguably a top 5-10 player right now. They didn't have a healthy Center their second best player is a center. Their Forwards were terrible, like just down right terrible. Even if they have a guy like Milsap as a forward they are a much different team and he's not even in the same realm of player Dame is.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

The only scenario where Dame can win a title as the leader is probably similar to what happened with Dirk in 2011. Or maybe Detroit in 04. He needs to get hot like he did against OKC, and we need perfect complementary pieces to address his weaknesses (traps/defense) at an elite level, and our opponents will need to not be ready or in turmoil (MIA/LAL).

They need a Healthy Center who can play defense, and be an adequate offensive player (Nurkic), and a Forward that can give you something as an outlet and teams wouldn't trap Dame as much as they do now. I'd say even 2 average nba starting forwards and they'd be a much better team. Unfortunately, Aminu / Harkless are way too inconsistent.

 

[e_blazer]

Obviously he needs the right fits around him. But what define the "right fits"? If he can be so thoroughly neutralized by high traps, what kind of "right fits" would be necessary to build a championship roster around him? Does one of those "right fits" need to be a player that is better than him?

Using the Golden State model, we're definitely missing a Draymond Green...a guy who can distribute the ball, rebound, defend, drive to the hoop, shoot from distance, cover ground quickly, and play with endless energy. Would someone please dial up one of those guys for us?

 

[illmatic99]

They need a Healthy Center who can play defense, and be an adequate offensive player (Nurkic), and a Forward that can give you something as an outlet and teams wouldn't trap Dame as much as they do now. I'd say even 2 average nba starting forwards and they'd be a much better team. Unfortunately, Aminu / Harkless are way too inconsistent.

Replace Harkless and and Aminu with let's say Bogdanovic and Millsap. Bring back Nurk.

Do we win the title this year?

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Replace Harkless and and Aminu with let's say Bogdanovic and Millsap. Bring back Nurk.

Do we win the title this year?

That's such a hard question to answer, in my opinion, if KD is healthy they're literally the most talented team in the history of the NBA that isn't so much oh you can't win with Dame, it's well they've got two MVP's in their prime and 2 other legit all-stars. Could the Blazers w/ Millsap and Bogdanovic win in many years, yes, and they would not get swept by the warriors, it would be a good series.

 

[tiredhunter]

I have a counter.

Does anyone here believe Dame can be the best player on a championship team ever in his career? I think a conference finals (maybe a finals run if things break right) is the absolute ceiling for a Dame-led team. I think the run this season revealed as much. Point guards struggle this late in the playoffs unless you have the absolute best fits around you (Draymond, etc) or are GOAT shooters.

Absolutely; This play-off run cemented the need for a Green type of player, and the need for more consistent role-players.

To the larger point of the thread ... We're starting to talk about players 3rd contracts, after making the WCF. This team is no longer "young" as defined as a bunch inexperienced high-hope draft prospects. We are firmly into a new phase of this Blazers core (and I'd argue we started transitioning to this phase last year).

 

[Ripcity4life77]

Do not ever compare Buck and Turner even in age together -- Turner could not carry Bucks jock strap

However i get what TB is saying and it is something we forget and since Stotts is here to stay the only thing left is the players and with Dame prolly signing a new deal this upcoming season might be the perfect time to make a big deal even if it means a small step back IF it means a bigger step forward. The Blazers cannot be afraid to consider any player outside Dame for a trade if it means improving this team for the future.

NeO -- grow a pair and be bold not afraid but not be stupid when thinking of any move you might make

 

[riverman]

Kanter JUST turned 27 2 days ago...seems like erasing a year to say going to be 28.....he's got most of a season next year to still be 27....same age as my youngest son...sure doesn't seem old for a big in the NBA to me...Meyers is like a 7 year old car with 200 miles on it

 

[wizenheimer]

Obviously he needs the right fits around him. But what define the "right fits"? If he can be so thoroughly neutralized by high traps, what kind of "right fits" would be necessary to build a championship roster around him? Does one of those "right fits" need to be a player that is better than him?

it needs to be a player at least as good. If Portland had Paul George or Kawhi to team with Lillard, a defense could not sell out to stop Lillard. Option 1b would tear them apart

the big vulnerability Portland has is that if a team takes Lillard out of the flow, they are getting a two-fer. Not only do they limit Portland's best scorer, they shut down the only guy who can consistently run the offense. That's a huge payoff for one defensive strategy

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

it needs to be a player at least as good. If Portland had Paul George or Kawhi to team with Lillard, a defense could not sell out to stop Lillard. Option 1b would tear them apart

the big vulnerability Portland has is that if a team takes Lillard out of the flow, they are getting a two-fer. Not only do they limit Portland's best scorer, they shut down the only guy who can consistently run the offense. That's a huge payoff for one defensive strategy

I think Nurk is actually a pretty good response to that strategy or was becoming that. They used him a lot at the top of the key to control and distribute from the middle of the court. He definitely had work to do, because at times he made unnecessary passes but he was the outlet who could run the offense, and create for himself or others. CJ really isnt good at running the offense, he can run his own offense.

 

[H.C.]

So let me get this straight.
As soon as Lillard hits 32 we should start counting him out?

Got it.

Does CJ have that same timeline?
Or because his game doesn't rely as much on athleticism. He will age well?

 

[wizenheimer]

I think Nurk is actually a pretty good response to that strategy or was becoming that. They used him a lot at the top of the key to control and distribute from the middle of the court. He definitely had work to do, because at times he made unnecessary passes but he was the outlet who could run the offense, and create for himself or others. CJ really isnt good at running the offense, he can run his own offense.

Nurkic can make some good passes; but he can't run the offense. That requires a player with handles and vision.

 

[H.C.]

Nurkic can make some good passes; but he can't run the offense. That requires a player with handles and vision.

I wonder how many people said that about Jokic or Green.

Easy buckets matter in the playoffs.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Nurkic can make some good passes; but he can't run the offense. That requires a player with handles and vision.

It really doesn't. It takes a player who's patient, and Nurkic does have good vision. It helps being 7 feet tall, if they tried to run two guys at him he'd just flip it to a wide-open cutter because his passing lanes are different at 7 feet then dames at 6'2-6'3.
Draymond doesn't have good handles, AD doesn't have good Handles, Jokic doesn't. They have adequate handles for being huge, and so does Nurkic.
I'm not saying bring back Nurk and that solves everything for them, but it certainly helps.

 

[wizenheimer]

I wonder how many people said that about Jokic or Green.

Easy buckets matter in the playoffs.

Nurkic averaged 1.8 assists his 4th year in the league. Jokic averaged 7.3 assists in his 4th season. Green averaged 7.4. Pretty sketchy comparison IMO

 

[barfo]

Nobody addresses the elephant in the room, which is that the members of this forum are getting older.

Many of us have lost a step, or fallen down the steps, or have step-children.

Face it, the forum needs fresh blood. And then after our transfusions, perhaps we'll have the energy to recruit some new younger members.

barfo