Third Round: Agoo101284 vs. Huevonkiller

[DynastYWarrioR6]

Winner of this matchup will play the winner of Celtic_Fan/DynastYWarrioR6

Agoo101284
PG: Gary Payton / Chauncey Billups / Fat Lever
SG: Adrian Dantley / Paul Westphal
SF: Elgin Baylor / Larry Nance / Marques Johnson
PF: Dennis Rodman / Ben Wallace
C: Wilt Chamberlain / Spencer Haywood

Huevonkiller

PG: Chris Paul / Deron Williams
SG: Vince Carter / Gilbert Arenas
SF: Paul Pierce / Carmelo Anthony / Shane Battier
PF: Kevin McHale / Amare Stoudemire / Kenyon Martin
C: David Robinson / Dwight Howard

 

[agoo]

I think I have a clear and significant advantage at all positions except PF.

At PG, Chris Paul wants to be Gary Payton when he grows up. At SG, Dantley is a better scorer than Carter, though I think both would have their way with the other offensively. Pierce can't handle Baylor. Wilt, as always, it an unstoppable scorer down low and Robinson won't be able to keep up with him bucket for bucket. Off the bench, I think I am better at both guard spots and small forward, and I don't think the gap at C/PF is enough to make up for Huevon's other losses in the starting five and bench. I'm going to the finals.

 

[huevonkiller]

I think I have a clear and significant advantage at all positions except PF.

At PG, Chris Paul wants to be Gary Payton when he grows up. At SG, Dantley is a better scorer than Carter, though I think both would have their way with the other offensively. Pierce can't handle Baylor. Wilt, as always, it an unstoppable scorer down low and Robinson won't be able to keep up with him bucket for bucket. Off the bench, I think I am better at both guard spots and small forward, and I don't think the gap at C/PF is enough to make up for Huevon's other losses in the starting five and bench. I'm going to the finals.

Payton's and Paul's game are different, so that was a weird analogy to me.

How is Dantley a better scorer? I'd say they are about even factoring in pace, basketball-reference would agree (Carter = 25 PER, Dantley is at 24.6 at his peak). Carter can actually lock down people once in a while too unlike Adrian, and David Robinson is underrated as hell being third all-time in PER. Wilt wouldn't get the chance to shoot 35-40 times a game at this NBA pace, or play as many minutes with the rule changes. In fact, David Robinson was noticeably more efficient throughout his career, Wilt sucks at shooting FTs and his FG% can't fully make up for it. D-Rob has a 5 TS% edge on him career-wise.

Paul is also a better distributor than Payton ever was, his 28+ PER last season ranks him among the best ever. Payton was never as productive offensively.

And J_Ray was indeed right last round, Baylor is good but he also takes way too many shots, his True Shooting percentage is below the average of 53% (Bayler is at 49%).

You made solid but not significantly better choices in Payton/Wilt, then you went for mystique and underrated the modern stars of today. My depth is amazing as well.

 

[SportsFanatic]

I'm going with huevonkiller on this one, I don't think some of those past legends would be as good in this NBA, especially Wilt since now there are players his size and stronger than him.

 

[tim]

Huevon has my vote. Easy choice as usual

 

[Celtic Fan]

umm yeah, David Robinson shot better at the FT line and thus had a better cumlative FT%.. he was SOOO much more efficient than Wilt... good gravy you actually believe such crap.
People don't know or forget, Wilt was a world class athelte. This guy could have qualified for the Oylmpics.. in High Jumping. He played pro beach Volleyball after his days in the NBA. He could have played college football too. Sure his number would drop in today's game.. not because 'there's guys his own size' crap, but because of the aggressive double teams he would have saw by bigger and quicker SF's. It would have slowed him down, but if you think for a second he wouldn't clearly be the best Center in the game.. well that's just sad.
Dude is the only center to lead the league in assists.. that says something. And if the pace was so much faster back then, His stamina WOULD allow him to play a lot of minutes today. Let's not forget he AVERAGED 48.5 mins/game for a season.. that's right, half a minute more than the average NBA game. HOW? He played all but 3 minutes the entire year, including overtime games.. that's freakish cardio my man.
Wilt would make David 'sharmin' Robinson his bitch, plain and simple.

And don't discount Elgin Baylor so easily either... go here http://sportstwo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125458 educate yourselves.

good gawd, such a pathetic showing to vote for the current era guys because you 'know' them. Half these guys have barely started their careers!! It's like saying Roy Tarpley is an all time great because he had a few good years before he did too much coke...

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

I'm amazed at people voting for Huevon's team over agoo's to be honest.

 

[Celtic Fan]

I'm amazed at people voting for Huevon's team over agoo's to be honest.

ignorance of the history of the game is bliss I guess.

 

[huevonkiller]

umm yeah, David Robinson shot better at the FT line and thus had a better cumlative FT%.. he was SOOO much more efficient than Wilt... good gravy you actually believe such crap.

Lol what? I'm reporting the news here, it isn't an opinion when I talk about efficiency. Frankly you didn't even know what True Shooting percentage was a few weeks ago.

People don't know or forget, Wilt was a world class athelte. This guy could have qualified for the Oylmpics.. in High Jumping. He played pro beach Volleyball after his days in the NBA. He could have played college football too. Sure his number would drop in today's game.. not because 'there's guys his own size' crap, but because of the aggressive double teams he would have saw by bigger and quicker SF's. It would have slowed him down, but if you think for a second he wouldn't clearly be the best Center in the game.. well that's just sad.
Dude is the only center to lead the league in assists.. that says something. And if the pace was so much faster back then, His stamina WOULD allow him to play a lot of minutes today. Let's not forget he AVERAGED 48.5 mins/game for a season.. that's right, half a minute more than the average NBA game. HOW? He played all but 3 minutes the entire year, including overtime games.. that's freakish cardio my man.
Wilt would make David 'sharmin' Robinson his bitch, plain and simple.

Right... I addressed all of this. He also shot 35-40 times a game which is completely unrealistic and the answer is staring you right in the face; pace. It's just too inconvenient for you to admit.

And don't discount Elgin Baylor so easily either... go here http://sportstwo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125458 educate yourselves.

good gawd, such a pathetic showing to vote for the current era guys because you 'know' them. Half these guys have barely started their careers!! It's like saying Roy Tarpley is an all time great because he had a few good years before he did too much coke...

Baylor was a great player who still took too many shots. People should educate themselves on the entire issue not just anecdotal accounts.

 

[huevonkiller]

I'm amazed at people voting for Huevon's team over agoo's to be honest.

His frontline is weaker than mine, Paul's 28.0 PER at the PG position is almost unprecedented as well. I feel the SG/SF comparison is a wash really.

 

[huevonkiller]

ignorance of the history of the game is bliss I guess.

Not at all.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

His frontline is weaker then mine, Paul's 28.0 PER at the PG position is almost unprecedented as well. I feel the SG/SF comparison is a wash really.

maybe depthwise, but his starters on the frontline are definitely better than yours.

Paul is amazing for sure, but at this point I think Payton in his prime could wrap him up like a glove and make him work harder than he has had to in the past.

 

[huevonkiller]

maybe depthwise, but his starters on the frontline are definitely better than yours.

Paul is amazing for sure, but at this point I think Payton in his prime could wrap him up like a glove and make him work harder than he has had to in the past.

Well first why are we ignoring depth though? Even so, Agoo even admitted he didn't have the edge at PF. McHale is amazing in the post and an excellent defender.

Payton didn't really have an affect on players like John Stockton who Paul actually outperforms on a single-season level. That wouldn't be a given to me that he would wrap him up like a glove. Payton never ran a team as well as Paul either, so I think my frontline and depth gives me the edge. My Swingmen also play better defense and were already comparable offensively.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

Well first why are we ignoring depth though? Even so, Agoo even admitted he didn't have the edge at PF. McHale is amazing in the post and an excellent defender.

Payton didn't really have an affect on players like John Stockton who Paul actually outperforms on a single-season level. That wouldn't be a given to me that he would wrap him up like a glove. Payton never ran a team as well as Paul either, so I think my frontline and depth gives me the edge. My Swingmen also play better defense and were already comparable offensively.

Rodman was a better defender than McHale, and Rodman is the best rebounding big man of all time. He would make McHale eat shit all game and take him out of the game mentally.

I'm basing Payton off watching both of them. I think Payton would match up quite well against Paul. But that's my opinion.

You also do not have a player on Wilt's level. I'm a huge DRob fan, but Wilt would have sunk the admiral.

 

[huevonkiller]

Rodman was a better defender than McHale, and Rodman is the best rebounding big man of all time. He would make McHale eat shit all game and take him out of the game mentally.

I'm basing Payton off watching both of them. I think Payton would match up quite well against Paul. But that's my opinion.

And what would Rodman do on offense? I guess McHale would make him eat shit then as well, because Rodman wasn't anything special on that end. Mac is simply more complete.

You also do not have a player on Wilt's level. I'm a huge DRob fan, but Wilt would have sunk the admiral.

Oh actually I do, D-Rob is quite easily on his level, as his 26 career PER would suggest. What he didn't have the luxury of was taking that many shots per game in a funny era. No one can average that many rebounds without a ferocious pace either, it is quite evident.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

And what would Rodman do on offense? I guess McHale would make him eat shit then as well, because Rodman wasn't anything special on that end. Mac is simply more complete.



Oh actually I do, D-Rob is quite easily on his level, as his 26 career PER would suggest. What he didn't have the luxury of was taking that many shots per game in a funny era. No one can average that many rebounds without a ferocious pace either, it is quite evident.

I beg to differ, and so do lots of basketball analysts that get paid to study basketball all day long.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestCenters

And for shits and giggles

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/65759-top-10-nba-centers-of-all-time

And I love these PER ratings, it's like John Hollinger all over again.

Carl Landry fro ROY!

 

[huevonkiller]

I beg to differ, and so do lots of basketball analysts that get paid to study basketball all day long.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestCenters

And for shits and giggles

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/65759-top-10-nba-centers-of-all-time

And I love these PER ratings, it's like John Hollinger all over again.

Carl Landry fro ROY!

He'd never average that many shots/rebounds/etc. a game now. When you break it down, his stats are quite inflated and it doesn't matter if you use PER, XYZ, etc., he's not as dominant as many think. Per is simply one point I brought up.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

I never said Wilts stats aren't inflated. I simply said he is much better than DRob. Which is a true statement.

 

[huevonkiller]

I never said Wilts stats aren't inflated. I simply said he is much better than DRob. Which is a true statement.

Obviously the question of how inflated Wilt is, is something that is brought up frequently. You feel he would translate well still into this modern NBA game, I simply disagree. Wilt and Shaq are always compared to each other and DRob is quite comparable to Shaq in my opinion.

 

[Denny Crane]

agoo should be winning this by a landslide. In fact, he was when I voted, but wow have things changed since then.

 

[Denny Crane]

umm yeah, David Robinson shot better at the FT line and thus had a better cumlative FT%.. he was SOOO much more efficient than Wilt... good gravy you actually believe such crap.
People don't know or forget, Wilt was a world class athelte. This guy could have qualified for the Oylmpics.. in High Jumping. He played pro beach Volleyball after his days in the NBA. He could have played college football too. Sure his number would drop in today's game.. not because 'there's guys his own size' crap, but because of the aggressive double teams he would have saw by bigger and quicker SF's. It would have slowed him down, but if you think for a second he wouldn't clearly be the best Center in the game.. well that's just sad.
Dude is the only center to lead the league in assists.. that says something. And if the pace was so much faster back then, His stamina WOULD allow him to play a lot of minutes today. Let's not forget he AVERAGED 48.5 mins/game for a season.. that's right, half a minute more than the average NBA game. HOW? He played all but 3 minutes the entire year, including overtime games.. that's freakish cardio my man.
Wilt would make David 'sharmin' Robinson his bitch, plain and simple.

And don't discount Elgin Baylor so easily either... go here http://sportstwo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125458 educate yourselves.

good gawd, such a pathetic showing to vote for the current era guys because you 'know' them. Half these guys have barely started their careers!! It's like saying Roy Tarpley is an all time great because he had a few good years before he did too much coke...

Wilt even talked about making a comeback at age 50 or so and he'd probably have been one of the top centers in the league even then.

 

[huevonkiller]

agoo should be winning this by a landslide. In fact, he was when I voted, but wow have things changed since then.

There are plenty of people who don't like these old players to your degree. You also think Walton is better than DRob so there's not much point in me defending him in front of you.

 

[Denny Crane]

There are plenty of people who don't like these old players to your degree. You also think Walton is better than DRob so there's not much point in me defending him in front of you.

I saw both Walton and DRob play, did you?

UCLA won 88 consecutive games with Walton at C. Read that again. He won championships his 3rd NBA season with a so-so supporting cast and then again as super 6th man for the Celtics. While he was in college, people drooled over the Walton/Kareem match ups that were sure to come in the NBA for a decade or more. He was that good.

If there's a knock on him, it's that he was injury prone and his sore feet ultimately killed his career. Doesn't change the fact he was as great as he was.

 

[huevonkiller]

I saw both Walton and DRob play, did you?

UCLA won 88 consecutive games with Walton at C. Read that again. He won championships his 3rd NBA season with a so-so supporting cast and then again as super 6th man for the Celtics. While he was in college, people drooled over the Walton/Kareem match ups that were sure to come in the NBA for a decade or more. He was that good.

If there's a knock on him, it's that he was injury prone and his sore feet ultimately killed his career. Doesn't change the fact he was as great as he was.

How is College relevant to this draft though? With him I don't even need to adjust for pace, his output is solid but not amazing.

 

[Denny Crane]

His college career is indicative of how great a C he was by the time he started in the NBA. You are in love with misusing stats. Walton was excellent at all things - passing, rebounding, scoring, setting picks, and defense, as well as leading teams to championships at all levels. On most teams, the PG calls the plays but on Walton's teams HE called the plays. The Blazers were one of the best fast break teams in history (behind the Celtics) with him rebounding and making the outlet pass - the only better C I saw at doing that was Wes Unseld.

You think he wasn't so good because:
1) you never saw him
2) his stats weren't gaudy because he was the consummate C in a team system
3) don't realize how well he fared in match ups against the other greats (Kareem for one)

 

[huevonkiller]

His college career is indicative of how great a C he was by the time he started in the NBA. You are in love with misusing stats. Walton was excellent at all things - passing, rebounding, scoring, setting picks, and defense, as well as leading teams to championships at all levels. On most teams, the PG calls the plays but on Walton's teams HE called the plays. The Blazers were one of the best fast break teams in history (behind the Celtics) with him rebounding and making the outlet pass - the only better C I saw at doing that was Wes Unseld.

You think he wasn't so good because:
1) you never saw him
2) his stats weren't gaudy because he was the consummate C in a team system
3) don't realize how well he fared in match ups against the other greats (Kareem for one)

He was much more efficient in college. He didn't translate as well.

 

[Colonel Ronan]

Bugga off.

 

[Denny Crane]

He was much more efficient in college. He didn't translate as well.

Seems the experts at ESPN think Walton was better than Robinson and one of the top 10 of all time.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestCenters

<table class="tablehead" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="colhead" valign="top"></tr><tr class="colhead" valign="top"><td>
</td> <td>Years</td> <td>PPG</td> <td>RPG</td> <td>BPG</td> <td>PER</td> </tr> <tr class="oddrow" valign="top"> <td>Abdul-Jabbar</td> <td>20</td> <td>24.6</td> <td>11.2</td> <td>2.6</td> <td>24.6</td> </tr> <tr class="evenrow" valign="top"> <td>Chamberlain</td> <td>14</td> <td>30.1</td> <td>22.9</td> <td>N/A</td> <td>26.2</td> </tr> <tr class="oddrow" valign="top"> <td>Russell</td> <td>13</td> <td>15.1</td> <td>22.5</td> <td>N/A</td> <td>18.9</td> </tr> <tr class="evenrow" valign="top"> <td>O'Neal</td> <td>14</td> <td>26.3</td> <td>11.8</td> <td>2.5</td> <td>27.8</td> </tr> <tr class="oddrow" valign="top"> <td>Olajuwon</td> <td>18</td> <td>21.8</td> <td>11.1</td> <td>3.1</td> <td>23.6</td> </tr> <tr class="evenrow" valign="top"> <td>Malone</td> <td>21</td> <td>20.3</td> <td>12.3</td> <td>1.3</td> <td>22.0</td> </tr> <tr class="oddrow" valign="top"> <td>Walton</td> <td>10</td> <td>13.3</td> <td>10.5</td> <td>2.2</td> <td>20.0</td> </tr> <tr class="evenrow" valign="top"> <td>Robinson</td> <td>14</td> <td>21.1</td> <td>10.6</td> <td>3.0</td> <td>26.2</td> </tr> <tr class="oddrow" valign="top"> <td>Mikan</td> <td>7</td> <td>23.1</td> <td>13.4</td> <td>N/A</td> <td>27.1</td> </tr> <tr class="evenrow" valign="top"> <td>Ewing</td> <td>17</td> <td>21.0</td> <td>9.8</td> <td>2.4</td> <td>21.0</td></tr></tbody></table>
BILL WALTON

Dick Raphael/NBAE via Getty Images


Teams: Portland Trail Blazers (1974-1978), San Diego Clippers (1979-1980, 1982-1984), Los Angeles Clippers (1984-1985), Boston Celtics (1985-1987) Titles: 2 (1977, 1986)
Honors: Two-time All-Star; Finals MVP (1977), MVP (1978), Sixth Man of the Year (1986), Hall of Fame
The player: Still the greatest passing big man the game has seen. His combination of passing, passion and fundamentals elevated his teammates and the league.
Injuries hampered his career, but when he was healthy he was fantastically deadly. He gave defenses every reason to double-team him, but punished them for doing so better than anyone. His selflessness helped the Blazers win their only title.
There quite simply haven't been many better at making others better.




<!-- end #7 -->
http://www.nba.com/history/players/walton_bio.html

Though remembered by many for a career plagued by injuries and a personal life spiced by controversy, Bill Walton won high praise from players and coaches alike during his checkered career. During his prime as a member of the Portland Trail Blazers in the mid-1970s -- a prime that lasted a mere three years -- Walton drew comparisons to such players as Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Russell.

"Bill Russell was a great shotblocker. Wilt Chamberlain was a great offensive player," Dr. Jack Ramsay, Walton's coach in Portland, told Sport magazine. "But Walton can do it all."

After achieving superstardom playing for John Wooden's powerhouse UCLA Bruins in the early '70s and winning three straight College Player of the Year Awards, Walton was destined to become an NBA legend. When he was healthy, Walton had few peers.

He won the NBA Most Valuable Player award while playing for the defending NBA champion Trail Blazers in 1977-78. At the top of his form, Walton scored, passed, intimidated, hustled, and played the role of leader with the best centers of his day. He was a perfectionist whose range of skills and dedication never ceased to impress those who saw him play.

 

[huevonkiller]

Seems the experts at ESPN think Walton was better than Robinson and one of the top 10 of all time.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestCenters

<table class="tablehead" border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1" width="100%"><tbody><tr class="colhead" valign="top"></tr><tr class="colhead" valign="top"><td>
</td> <td>Years</td> <td>PPG</td> <td>RPG</td> <td>BPG</td> <td>PER</td> </tr> <tr class="oddrow" valign="top"> <td>Abdul-Jabbar</td> <td>20</td> <td>24.6</td> <td>11.2</td> <td>2.6</td> <td>24.6</td> </tr> <tr class="evenrow" valign="top"> <td>Chamberlain</td> <td>14</td> <td>30.1</td> <td>22.9</td> <td>N/A</td> <td>26.2</td> </tr> <tr class="oddrow" valign="top"> <td>Russell</td> <td>13</td> <td>15.1</td> <td>22.5</td> <td>N/A</td> <td>18.9</td> </tr> <tr class="evenrow" valign="top"> <td>O'Neal</td> <td>14</td> <td>26.3</td> <td>11.8</td> <td>2.5</td> <td>27.8</td> </tr> <tr class="oddrow" valign="top"> <td>Olajuwon</td> <td>18</td> <td>21.8</td> <td>11.1</td> <td>3.1</td> <td>23.6</td> </tr> <tr class="evenrow" valign="top"> <td>Malone</td> <td>21</td> <td>20.3</td> <td>12.3</td> <td>1.3</td> <td>22.0</td> </tr> <tr class="oddrow" valign="top"> <td>Walton</td> <td>10</td> <td>13.3</td> <td>10.5</td> <td>2.2</td> <td>20.0</td> </tr> <tr class="evenrow" valign="top"> <td>Robinson</td> <td>14</td> <td>21.1</td> <td>10.6</td> <td>3.0</td> <td>26.2</td> </tr> <tr class="oddrow" valign="top"> <td>Mikan</td> <td>7</td> <td>23.1</td> <td>13.4</td> <td>N/A</td> <td>27.1</td> </tr> <tr class="evenrow" valign="top"> <td>Ewing</td> <td>17</td> <td>21.0</td> <td>9.8</td> <td>2.4</td> <td>21.0</td></tr></tbody></table>
BILL WALTON

Dick Raphael/NBAE via Getty Images


Teams: Portland Trail Blazers (1974-1978), San Diego Clippers (1979-1980, 1982-1984), Los Angeles Clippers (1984-1985), Boston Celtics (1985-1987) Titles: 2 (1977, 1986)
Honors: Two-time All-Star; Finals MVP (1977), MVP (1978), Sixth Man of the Year (1986), Hall of Fame
The player: Still the greatest passing big man the game has seen. His combination of passing, passion and fundamentals elevated his teammates and the league.
Injuries hampered his career, but when he was healthy he was fantastically deadly. He gave defenses every reason to double-team him, but punished them for doing so better than anyone. His selflessness helped the Blazers win their only title.
There quite simply haven't been many better at making others better.




<!-- end #7 -->
http://www.nba.com/history/players/walton_bio.html

Though remembered by many for a career plagued by injuries and a personal life spiced by controversy, Bill Walton won high praise from players and coaches alike during his checkered career. During his prime as a member of the Portland Trail Blazers in the mid-1970s -- a prime that lasted a mere three years -- Walton drew comparisons to such players as Wilt Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Russell.

"Bill Russell was a great shotblocker. Wilt Chamberlain was a great offensive player," Dr. Jack Ramsay, Walton's coach in Portland, told Sport magazine. "But Walton can do it all."

After achieving superstardom playing for John Wooden's powerhouse UCLA Bruins in the early '70s and winning three straight College Player of the Year Awards, Walton was destined to become an NBA legend. When he was healthy, Walton had few peers.

He won the NBA Most Valuable Player award while playing for the defending NBA champion Trail Blazers in 1977-78. At the top of his form, Walton scored, passed, intimidated, hustled, and played the role of leader with the best centers of his day. He was a perfectionist whose range of skills and dedication never ceased to impress those who saw him play.

Oh did you just cite PER? Thanks. : ]

 

[Denny Crane]

Oh did you just cite PER? Thanks. : ]

You must be stunned that the guy with the worst PER of the group is ranked #3 all time at C.