This is why I hate the NBA

[Stevenson]

So in your opinion, why do refs favor star players over non-star players?

I'll tell you why:

I once read a book by an old NBA ref, Earl Strom. He discussed this very thing. Admitted stars get star calls. Why? I'll paraphrase, but essentially he said it's because it's a stars' league. People pay to see these incredible athletes -- the stars -- do sensational things. So they get the benefit of the doubt, and they get extra room to do what others cannot.

 

[blue9]

I'll tell you why:

I once read a book by an old NBA ref, Earl Strom. He discussed this very thing. Admitted stars get star calls. Why? I'll paraphrase, but essentially he said it's because it's a stars' league. People pay to see these incredible athletes -- the stars -- do sensational things. So they get the benefit of the doubt, and they get extra room to do what others cannot.

Basically, the best players get to play an easier game than the players who aren't as good as them. Makes total sense.

 

[Natebishop3]

I'll tell you why:

I once read a book by an old NBA ref, Earl Strom. He discussed this very thing. Admitted stars get star calls. Why? I'll paraphrase, but essentially he said it's because it's a stars' league. People pay to see these incredible athletes -- the stars -- do sensational things. So they get the benefit of the doubt, and they get extra room to do what others cannot.

The NBA has steered it into a stars league.

It used to be a teams league. It was more about city rivalries. Baseball is still a city rivalry league. The NFL is as well. The NBA is the only stars league in pro sports, and I blame the NBA/David Stern/and now AAU.

 

[Darkwebs]

But how can you look at those stats and not think that something is afoul?

The same way a ref can look at Dame getting elbowed in the face and not think it is a foul.

/s

 

[BBert]

Did the announcers "miss" that? I didn't. They kept saying Kanter ran into him until someone finally showed them the correct angle.

 

[BBert]

I'll tell you why:

I once read a book by an old NBA ref, Earl Strom. He discussed this very thing. Admitted stars get star calls. Why? I'll paraphrase, but essentially he said it's because it's a stars' league. People pay to see these incredible athletes -- the stars -- do sensational things. So they get the benefit of the doubt, and they get extra room to do what others cannot.

Is that the same book where he talked about how if a ref called anything on a star player at the end of a game he'd get called on the carpet?

 

[e_blazer]

Did the announcers "miss" that? I didn't. They kept saying Kanter ran into him until someone finally showed them the correct angle.

McHale is an embarrassment as a color commentator. Just like he was an embarrassment as a coach.

 

[Chris Craig]

The same way a ref can look at Dame getting elbowed in the face and not think it is a foul.

/s

And call the foul on Dame

 

[Chris Craig]

Did the announcers "miss" that? I didn't. They kept saying Kanter ran into him until someone finally showed them the correct angle.

Mike Malone would have us believe Jokic and Kanter were "tangled up"

 

[wizenheimer]

I can say with a near certainty with the shit that Jokic has been getting away with if Nurkic was playing there would have been several confrontations between Nurk and the joker, at the minimum

 

[Stevenson]

McHale is an embarrassment as a color commentator. Just like he was an embarrassment as a coach.

It was like watching a Nuggets home game. Horrible. I couldn't believe how all they talked about was Denver, even though we were winning.

 

[blue9]

The same way a ref can look at Dame getting elbowed in the face and not think it is a foul.

/s

But they DID call a foul! On Dame...

 

[Minstrel]

The NBA has steered it into a stars league.

It used to be a teams league. It was more about city rivalries. Baseball is still a city rivalry league. The NFL is as well. The NBA is the only stars league in pro sports, and I blame the NBA/David Stern/and now AAU.

Basketball is the only sport that can be a "stars" league--in no other sport can one player carry a team to being pretty good, or two to three players carry a team to being a contender. Even in football--the Packers were a bad team last year despite Aaron Rodgers, because the rest of their roster was barren. Baseball, football and hockey have too large of rosters for teams to succeed based on one or two great or transcendent talents. The Angels haven't achieved much with Mike Trout, a top-five player in the history of the game.

Basketball also allows you to funnel everything through your star if you want. Football has some of that only if your star happens to be the quarterback--baseball has none of that.

So there are structural reasons why basketball is such a star-driven league. That's why the marketing is around stars. Pretty much since marketing has been a major thing in basketball, stars have lined the marquee. Even in the "good old days" of Los Angeles-Boston, the marquee was Magic vs. Bird. That specific star rivalry has been credited many, many times for turning basketball into a mainstream, prime time sport.

 

[glazeduck]

No hyperbole here, I counted TEN uncalled fouls on Jokic (also not counting whatever the shove could've/should've been) and I wasn't even looking for them.

It's one thing for a star player to get away with a few fouls, but what that fat fuck is getting away with is just ludicrous.

I hate whiny teams, but at some point I'd like Stotts or Dame to say something and make it a bigger deal. Feels like we're always turning the other cheek...

 

[Wizard Mentor]

I'll tell you why:

I once read a book by an old NBA ref, Earl Strom. He discussed this very thing. Admitted stars get star calls. Why? I'll paraphrase, but essentially he said it's because it's a stars' league. People pay to see these incredible athletes -- the stars -- do sensational things. So they get the benefit of the doubt, and they get extra room to do what others cannot.

In 20 years, some dude will write a computer program to analyze all of the traveling and other stupid shit that doesn't get called, and re-evaluate NBA history. They'll probably take away a couple of the Bulls trophies.

 

[blue9]

In 20 years, some dude will write a computer program to analyze all of the traveling and other stupid shit

Ugh, that just reminded me that it's not just fouls that have been called differently between the two teams but also traveling and KICK BALLS!

 

[dviss1]

The refereeing is ABHORRENT....

That FAT BITCH (God I hate Jokic now) should've fouled out on that Dame drive. Completely hacked his arm.

For all the people complaining about star calls, how come our stars never seem to get them?

 

[blue9]

For all the people complaining about star calls, how come our stars never seem to get them?

They aren't stars? (According to apparent opinion of the league office.)

 

[BigGameDamian]

No hyperbole here, I counted TEN uncalled fouls on Jokic (also not counting whatever the shove could've/should've been) and I wasn't even looking for them.

It's one thing for a star player to get away with a few fouls, but what that fat fuck is getting away with is just ludicrous.

I hate whiny teams, but at some point I'd like Stotts or Dame to say something and make it a bigger deal. Feels like we're always turning the other cheek...

The Nuggets fans said otherwise. Said they are the team that got shafted last night.

 

[glazeduck]

Turner will make a positive impact on this team and some point in the playoffs and we’ll be grateful for him. We’re winning right now. Stop bitching.

The Nuggets fans said otherwise. Said they are the team that got shafted last night.

We certainly got away with a few ourselves, but I truly don't think its exaggeration to suggest that Jokic could've had 20 fouls called on him last night. Maybe that's being a little ticky tacky and not accounting for the added physicality of the playoffs, but I counted at least 5 alone on either swiping our defenders' hands away on backdowns or using his off-arm to shield when going up for layups (and again, was only casually paying attention to that aspect of the game). By the book, each one of those is a foul and they were plain as day, yet not one got called on him all night long.

The crazy thing is, I'm really struggling to figure out the reasoning behind it... Is it possible that NBA refs truly are just that bad? It would seem like -- especially given how the OKC series ended -- Dame would have greater star power than Jokic, yet he can't seem to buy a foul call going to the basket and Jokic both gets a ton of fouls called on us AND somehow none against him... Denver's not a major media market, they don't have an especially strong brand -- there doesn't seem to be any apparent "narrative" reason why the NBA would push Denver to win the series...

Fuck it. Let's just take care of business and have the backing of the entire world (minus the Bay Area and the league) in the WCF...

 

[blue9]

Maybe that's being a little ticky tacky and not accounting for the added physicality of the playoffs...

See, that's exactly where I think the difference stems from. So many of the calls against us are of the ticky-tacky variety that should go uncalled in the Playoffs. Harkless and Collins especially get called for stuff that would probably go uncalled half the time in the REGULAR season. And these calls are often made early in the quarter, in a seeming attempt to be able to control when the penalty sets in, and how aggressive we can play on defense for the remainder of the quarter.

Then on top of that we've got the Dame Face defensive foul, and the Jokic Face Flop foul bullshit to contend with, along with mysterious travel calls when the pivot foot maybe drags two inches. And Dame is getting hacked across the forearms with no call made.

 

[glazeduck]

See, that's exactly where I think the difference stems from. So many of the calls against us are of the ticky-tacky variety that should go uncalled in the Playoffs. Harkless and Collins especially get called for stuff that would probably go uncalled half the time in the REGULAR season. And these calls are often made early in the quarter, in a seeming attempt to be able to control when the penalty sets in, and how aggressive we can play on defense for the remainder of the quarter.

Then on top of that we've got the Dame Face defensive foul, and the Jokic Face Flop foul bullshit to contend with, along with mysterious travel calls when the pivot foot maybe drags two inches. And Dame is getting hacked across the forearms with no call made.

Yep, I see (and gripe about) the same thing. Just trying to take a more objective look at things...

That said, Collins was a badass last night -- really hope he keeps that up!

 

[wizenheimer]

In 20 years, some dude will write a computer program to analyze all of the traveling and other stupid shit that doesn't get called, and re-evaluate NBA history. They'll probably take away a couple of the Bulls trophies.

I remember a pretty funny promotional video for the Dream Team...1992?

anyway, they had Jordan, Magic, and Bird sitting together on a bench for the video. Magic was in the middle and the photographer asked Magic to move a little closer to Jordan. Magic said "I can't get any closer, I'll be called for a foul". Both Magic and Bird yukked it up pretty good but for some reason, MJ didn't think it was funny

 

[wizenheimer]

The crazy thing is, I'm really struggling to figure out the reasoning behind it... Is it possible that NBA refs truly are just that bad? It would seem like -- especially given how the OKC series ended -- Dame would have greater star power than Jokic, yet he can't seem to buy a foul call going to the basket and Jokic both gets a ton of fouls called on us AND somehow none against him... Denver's not a major media market, they don't have an especially strong brand -- there doesn't seem to be any apparent "narrative" reason why the NBA would push Denver to win the series...
.

there was a poster on RealGM (Agenda42) who made a pretty interesting argument:

"I get bad calls and non calls. Basketball is fast and it's going to happen.

The thing is, I'm pretty sure it's not honest mistakes. Playoff officiating to me sure looks like the refs are trying to influence the game. Officials that seem to be able to call the game well in normal conditions make "bad calls" when a team is threatening to break the game open. Star players get long or short leashes depending on the state of the series. Foul trouble is suspiciously common for the team trying to close out a series, while getting a second foul on the behind team's star is almost impossible.

I don't think they're bad at officiating. I think they're company men."

maybe that's a little too conspiracy theory, but it does seem to fit

 

[dviss1]

They aren't stars? (According to apparent opinion of the league office.)

1st Team all NBA

 

[Minstrel]

I don't think officials are part of a conspiracy. I think they're humans, subject to the standard cognitive biases all humans tend to be. Stars get "star treatment" not on purpose but because all humans have a tendency to see what they expect to see. We expect to see stars play at a higher level than other players and make fewer mistakes and referees aren't immune to that, so that bias leaks into their judgments at the margins, entirely subconsciously. The bigger the star (and "star" implies the perceptions around the player, not just the stat-driven analysis), the more likely for it to creep in.

Referees, as experts in a field and supposedly trained observers within their field, should be less prone to such a bias, but no human is going to be entirely without it, no matter how trained or expert.

 

[oldmangrouch]

They aren't stars? (According to apparent opinion of the league office.)

Correction - they aren't stars according to the TV people.