Thorn Ready To Shake Up Nets

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I hope we don't pull a Boston. That should have been done with Kidd and Carter here.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Universe @ Apr 17 2008, 05:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I hope we don't pull a Boston. That should have been done with Kidd and Carter here.</div>
Carter still is. And Harris is looking like he may be better than Kidd at this stage

I'd love it. Who wouldn't want to pull off a move that gets you the best record in basket ball <- that's my definition of pulling a Boston!
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Thorn thought he put together a team that would extend the Nets' postseason streak to seven years. When he was forced to trade one very important yet disgruntled piece, Jason Kidd, Thorn thought he had assembled enough talent to make a run. It didn't happen.</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>"We certainly feel that we should be a playoff team," Thorn said. "We're going to try to do what we need to do in order to get back there."</div>

 
Netted, I saw the posts you linked to elsewhere detailing your ideas for a Brand S&T that involved Nenad, Marcus, and a pick. I'm curious as to how you (and others) would rank Brand in terms of big men today.

He's had nice stats, but his teams have really never done very well. Has he ever been to the playoffs more than once? I've never really followed his career but have watched him a lot since his comeback late this year in anticipation the Nets might try to acquire him. In that limited exposure, he's really not doing much in the post. Most of his inside scoring has been off of offensive put backs, and he seems to be shooting the short jumper more than playing with his back to the basket. He doesn't look particularly fluid moving to me, and I'm struck anew at how undersized (in height) he looks to be a big-time PF. But I also realize how incredibly unfair it is to let only this most recent impression govern my assessments when he's just now coming back from a severe injury.

He would obviously be a huge upgrade up front for the Nets, even at his current level of play, since he can both defend, rebound, and score. But I'm just wondering how folks that watch a lot of ball rank him vis-a-vis the Al Jeffersons, Garnetts, Stoudemires, O'Neals, etc., not in terms of athleticism/size but in terms of efficacy inside.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Apr 17 2008, 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Netted, I saw the posts you linked to elsewhere detailing your ideas for a Brand S&T that involved Nenad, Marcus, and a pick. I'm curious as to how you (and others) would rank Brand in terms of big men today.

He's had nice stats, but his teams have really never done very well. Has he ever been to the playoffs more than once? I've never really followed his career but have watched him a lot since his comeback late this year in anticipation the Nets might try to acquire him. In that limited exposure, he's really not doing much in the post. Most of his inside scoring has been off of offensive put backs, and he seems to be shooting the short jumper more than playing with his back to the basket. He doesn't look particularly fluid moving to me, and I'm struck anew at how undersized (in height) he looks to be a big-time PF. But I also realize how incredibly unfair it is to let only this most recent impression govern my assessments when he's just now coming back from a severe injury.

He would obviously be a huge upgrade up front for the Nets, even at his current level of play, since he can both defend, rebound, and score. But I'm just wondering how folks that watch a lot of ball rank him vis-a-vis the Al Jeffersons, Garnetts, Stoudemires, O'Neals, etc., not in terms of athleticism/size but in terms of efficacy inside.</div>




FOMW, I'm interested in that too. I admit haven't seen more than a handful of games with him playing, but I've checked out 82games.com. What I've found matches your observation. Elton Brand seems to be more a jump shooter than an inside player, and increasingly so:





2002-2003:





<font size=-1>Shot selection</font>
<table width=290 bgcolor=cccccc border=0 cellspacing=1>
<tr bgcolor=e5e5e5>
<td width=50 bgcolor=33cc33><center><font size=-1>Shot</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Att.</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>eFG%</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Ast'd</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Blk'd</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Pts</font></center></td>
</tr>

<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Jump</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 53% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.375 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 67% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 6% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 5.7 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Close</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 35% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.571 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 55% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 9% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 5.8 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Dunk</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 8% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.971 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 78% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 2.2 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Tips</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 4% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.650 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 3% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 0.8 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=f0f0df>
<td><center><font size=-1>Inside</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 47% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.644 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 55% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 7% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 8.9 </font></td>

</tr>
</table>






2003-2004:





<font size=-1>Shot selection</font>
<table width=290 bgcolor=cccccc border=0 cellspacing=1>
<tr bgcolor=e5e5e5>
<td width=50 bgcolor=33cc33><center><font size=-1>Shot</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Att.</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>eFG%</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Ast'd</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Blk'd</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Pts</font></center></td>
</tr>

<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Jump</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 58% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.389 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 62% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 3% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 6.4 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Close</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 35% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.609 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 57% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 13% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 6.0 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Dunk</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 4% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.972 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 66% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 1.0 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Tips</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 4% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.553 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 0.6 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=f0f0df>
<td><center><font size=-1>Inside</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 42% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.635 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 54% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 11% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 7.6 </font></td>

</tr>
</table>





2004-2005:




<font size=-1>Shot selection</font>
<table width=290 bgcolor=cccccc border=0 cellspacing=1>
<tr bgcolor=e5e5e5>
<td width=50 bgcolor=33cc33><center><font size=-1>Shot</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Att.</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>eFG%</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Ast'd</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Blk'd</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Pts</font></center></td>
</tr>

<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Jump</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 62% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.418 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 71% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 4% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 8.0 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Close</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 30% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.582 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 56% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 13% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 5.3 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Dunk</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 6% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.959 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 70% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 3% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 1.8 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Tips</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 2% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.630 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 0.4 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=f0f0df>
<td><center><font size=-1>Inside</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 38% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.644 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 56% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 11% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 7.5 </font></td>

</tr>
</table>




2005-2006:




<font size=-1>Shot selection</font>
<table width=290 bgcolor=cccccc border=0 cellspacing=1>
<tr bgcolor=e5e5e5>
<td width=50 bgcolor=33cc33><center><font size=-1>Shot</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Att.</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>eFG%</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Ast'd</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Blk'd</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Pts</font></center></td>
</tr>

<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Jump</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 70% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.475 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 63% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 3% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>12.1 </font></td>
</tr>

<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Close</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 24% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.615 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 54% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 11% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 5.3 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Dunk</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 4% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.933 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 66% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 3% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 1.4 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Tips</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 2% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.500 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 0.3 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=f0f0df>
<td><center><font size=-1>Inside</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 30% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.654 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 54% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 9% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 7.0 </font></td>

</tr>
</table>




2006-2007:




<font size=-1>Shot selection</font>
<table width=290 bgcolor=cccccc border=0 cellspacing=1>
<tr bgcolor=e5e5e5>
<td width=50 bgcolor=33cc33><center><font size=-1>Shot</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Att.</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>eFG%</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Ast'd</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Blk'd</font></center></td>
<td width=48><center><font size=-1>Pts</font></center></td>
</tr>

<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Jump</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 70% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.470 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 66% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 3% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>10.0 </font></td>
</tr>

<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Close</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 23% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.626 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 57% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 12% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 4.3 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Dunk</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 5% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.968 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 65% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 3% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 1.5 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=ffffff>
<td><center><font size=-1>Tips</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 2% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.591 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 0.3 </font></td>

</tr>
<tr bgcolor=f0f0df>
<td><center><font size=-1>Inside</font></center></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 30% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1>.683 </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 56% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 9% </font></td>
<td align=right><font size=-1> 6.2 </font></td>

</tr>
</table>






Brand went from having 47% of his shots come from inside in 2002-2003, to 30% in the past two seasons (2005-2006, 2006-2007). What I'm not sure, however, is if these stats include attempts that are fouled, or just only attempts that becomes a make or miss. He does get to the line a "fair" amount of times... 6-7 for his career, which is pretty good, and I'd assume those aren't fouls on his jumpshots.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Universe @ Apr 17 2008, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I hope we don't pull a Boston. That should have been done with Kidd and Carter here.</div>

trade RJ+Krstic+Marcus+DAL pick for Brand+Livingston, and #10+Swift+Livingston for Redd.

Sign a combo guard with the MLE (Posey/Rush/Davis? nothing looking to good really.)

Harris/Armstrong
Redd/Rush?
Carter/Nachbar
Brand/Williams
Boone/Diop

hooray
 
The thing is, there is only one Kevin Garnett.

Not saying Brand wouldn't be a good pick up but he's not the second best PF playing right now. Arguably first.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Apr 17 2008, 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Netted, I saw the posts you linked to elsewhere detailing your ideas for a Brand S&T that involved Nenad, Marcus, and a pick. I'm curious as to how you (and others) would rank Brand in terms of big men today.

He's had nice stats, but his teams have really never done very well. Has he ever been to the playoffs more than once? I've never really followed his career but have watched him a lot since his comeback late this year in anticipation the Nets might try to acquire him. In that limited exposure, he's really not doing much in the post. Most of his inside scoring has been off of offensive put backs, and he seems to be shooting the short jumper more than playing with his back to the basket. He doesn't look particularly fluid moving to me, and I'm struck anew at how undersized (in height) he looks to be a big-time PF. But I also realize how incredibly unfair it is to let only this most recent impression govern my assessments when he's just now coming back from a severe injury.

He would obviously be a huge upgrade up front for the Nets, even at his current level of play, since he can both defend, rebound, and score. But I'm just wondering how folks that watch a lot of ball rank him vis-a-vis the Al Jeffersons, Garnetts, Stoudemires, O'Neals, etc., not in terms of athleticism/size but in terms of efficacy inside.</div>


Here is some game footage of Brand versus the Nets from the 06/07 season:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/a2nz7o

31MB.
 
Looking at highlights (emphasis on highlights), Brand seems to play offense facing the basket more often than not. Close shots are the result of drives or tips, not due to a post game. He's definitely no perimeter big man, however. Again, these are highlights.

The numbers don't lie however. Whatever his offense game is, he still shoots about 50% every year, averaging about 20 pts/game while being (I'm assuming) the focus of (West!) opposing defenses. He is what he is: a strong, athletic, monster rebounding, and fearless scoring big man. I'd still take him.
 
Thanks for the hilights, NOMAM. Unfortunately I couldn't watch them as the video wouldn't show in my media player. Got no message about needing another codec, and I couldn't find codec info from the properties of the file. Don't know what the problem was.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Apr 17 2008, 08:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Thanks for the hilights, NOMAM. Unfortunately I couldn't watch them as the video wouldn't show in my media player. Got no message about needing another codec, and I couldn't find codec info from the properties of the file. Don't know what the problem was.</div>


Oh, the video codec is Xvid. A program to use to find out video codecs is:

http://www.headbands.com/gspot/

But if you download and use this video player, it normally plays most types of video codecs for next time:

http://www.videolan.org/vlc/
 
amare stoudemire would look good besides lebron james...and what? they can both leave their teams after 2009-10?!! hmmm...
 
Brand has become more of a jump shooter but that has also coincided with the addition of Kaman who is basically sharing the post with him. Elton uses his ability to draw his man out on the floor with the jumper more consistently than Chris can and in turn free up room for him to do his work on the offensive glass. I think Brand has adapted to what his team needs more so than just a gradual metamorphosis into a jump shooter a la Bosh and if asked to return to his down in the post skill set we saw in Chicago he'd be more than willing and capable to do so. Before his injury he was a deceivingly athletic player and a lot would rest on just how healthy he is and what impact it's had on his game because handful of games he's played this season are no real indication of where he's at.
 
Brand has become more of a jump shooter because his jump shot has improved dramatically. He's pretty lethal with that 15-17 footer now. He didn't have that earlier in his career.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reganomics813 @ Apr 17 2008, 11:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Brand has become more of a jump shooter but that has also coincided with the addition of Kaman who is basically sharing the post with him. Elton uses his ability to draw his man out on the floor with the jumper more consistently than Chris can and in turn free up room for him to do his work on the offensive glass. I think Brand has adapted to what his team needs more so than just a gradual metamorphosis into a jump shooter a la Bosh and if asked to return to his down in the post skill set we saw in Chicago he'd be more than willing and capable to do so. Before his injury he was a deceivingly athletic player and a lot would rest on just how healthy he is and what impact it's had on his game because handful of games he's played this season are no real indication of where he's at.</div>

Yoooo good to see you around stranger


Those are good observations about Brand. In the hypothetical situation where he's traded to the Nets, how do you see him fitting in with our bigs? If the trade includes Krstic we might need him to function as a face-up shooter as well as the low-post scorer we've been searching for. Do you think he'll be able to deliever a well-rounded game? Do you think his injury would be a significant factor?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Main Event @ Apr 17 2008, 11:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yoooo good to see you around stranger


Those are good observations about Brand. In the hypothetical situation where he's traded to the Nets, how do you see him fitting in with our bigs? If the trade includes Krstic we might need him to function as a face-up shooter as well as the low-post scorer we've been searching for. Do you think he'll be able to deliever a well-rounded game? Do you think his injury would be a significant factor?</div>

What's up GM?! Gotta get used to your name change but I like it.

Man it's really rough to say how he's gonna fit with basically our entire squad available at this point. I think he would have a good number of wide open shots on the wings a la Nenad and, while he's not as money as Nenad is, he'll provide enough from those spots to keep his defender honest freeing up Boone, Diop, Sean to clean the glass at their natural around the hoop range a la Kaman.

The thing Elton brings that Nenad doesn't is that ability to pump fake and really attack the rim with a purpose, he's getting the bucket or the stripe everytime. Not to mention we'd def go back to dumpiing the ball in the post first thing each game where he'd be able to better establish a paint presence to help free up our guards for the rest of the game. Brand is a really adaptable and team oriented player, a lead by example kind of guy who puts forth constant effort and can exponentially strengthen our weak perimiter D with his long arms and shot blocking ability.

Really his injury is the key component (duh). Is he really hindered by it? Will he be 100% again? I mean it'd be awesome if we were trading for EB from a season ago but we at this point we don't know if that guy can reemerge. You know our training staff would run him through the gauntlet to get all the info they need. If they said go i'd say we got one heck of a steal because he's so versatile he can help us in alot of areas in games and teaching in practice. I think getting quality guys like Brand who are well rounded will help our younger kids find their way. Currently we have younger kids trying to learn off each other and a guy like that would take alot of pressure off them and allow them to just play their games and evolve naturally a la Kaman once again.
 
I've actually been pretty surprised by how effective Brand has been after coming back this year, probably because of the context of my perception: earlier that season I saw Nenad Krstic come back from a season ending injury, and ~1.5 seasons after his injury he's still not where he should be.

Brand can rebound, and is gifted offensively, but is there anything that he can't bring to the table? Ideally we would trade RJ+ a big that leaves us with a good complimentary player. I think you hit the nail on the head with how he pairs with Kaman, and so hopefully we could trade away Krstic to fill that outside-inside relationship they had (keeping in mind that he doesn't have as much value as he could). I don't want to trade Sean. The second half the season has incurred doubts in people's minds as to what he could become, but based on the experience he's had I still feel like he could be a great young player for the future of this franchise. I'd also love to see him learn under Brand. That leaves Stromile, Boone, and Diop.

Stromile is a going to be a $6 million expiring contract. Boone was our best big man this season, who was able to become a double double guy in our Nets system. Still, I've got my concerns about his durability. Also how would he function as a member of the Clippers? At least if he's packaged with Krstic he's be valuable off the bench. I'd prefer to keep Diop. I think its important we maintain our best post defender, and he's a good rebounder.

So while I won't address specific trade proposals, I think if we can get away with RJ+Boone+Krstic+pick that leave us with a a reason to draft a big man in the draft, and a group of guys that can play well together.
 
only way i would be ok with seeing area 51 go is if we get deandre in the draft.

you dont come by athletes like sean often.

i just want krstic outta here and a serious upgrade off the bench.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Apr 17 2008, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Netted, I saw the posts you linked to elsewhere detailing your ideas for a Brand S&T that involved Nenad, Marcus, and a pick. I'm curious as to how you (and others) would rank Brand in terms of big men today.

He's had nice stats, but his teams have really never done very well. Has he ever been to the playoffs more than once? I've never really followed his career but have watched him a lot since his comeback late this year in anticipation the Nets might try to acquire him. In that limited exposure, he's really not doing much in the post. Most of his inside scoring has been off of offensive put backs, and he seems to be shooting the short jumper more than playing with his back to the basket. He doesn't look particularly fluid moving to me, and I'm struck anew at how undersized (in height) he looks to be a big-time PF. But I also realize how incredibly unfair it is to let only this most recent impression govern my assessments when he's just now coming back from a severe injury.

He would obviously be a huge upgrade up front for the Nets, even at his current level of play, since he can both defend, rebound, and score. But I'm just wondering how folks that watch a lot of ball rank him vis-a-vis the Al Jeffersons, Garnetts, Stoudemires, O'Neals, etc., not in terms of athleticism/size but in terms of efficacy inside.</div>
I couldn't answer this any better than Reganomics did. His size isn't a limitation... has very long arms.
 
All I know is, the Nets can't spend $10 million and 15% of their roster space on Stromile Swift and Trent Hassell. To move them, though, the Nets will have to combine them with the lottery pick or one of the Williamses. Wouldn't bother me in the least. If you look at recent history, a traded draft pick is NEVER worth as much as the IDEA of the draft pick. Look at the lottery draft picks that have been dealt in draft-day trades, and they're rarely worth as much as the player that comes back. This year, of course, it looks like 90% of the projected first-round picks are freshman, and it's notoriously difficult to project how well they'll play or how much they'll contribute their first year or two. For a team (the Nets) that apparently wants to turn it all around as quickly as possible, there is just too much risk involved to keep the pick. Of course, if they end up with one of the top three picks, that may be a different story.

I'd be shocked if the Nets got rid of Harris, Vince, or Boone. I think they'll resign Diop, but I thought the same thing about Scalabrine and Mikki Moore, and Boston/Sac offered up a buttload of money. I hope they can S&T Krstic, and get some asset back for him. I don't really care about anyone else. Hopefully, they can ditch Hassell, and if they insist on having a defensive specialist around, they could always bring Antoine back or sign Bobby Jones. I think it's obvious, though, that having a bunch of guys who don't play defense, and one defensive specialist on the floor, doesn't work (with the exception of a post defender like Collins/Diop).

I have no idea what to think about RJ. On one hand, I'd like him to retire a Net, on the other hand, I'd like to slap him silly until he promises to put in some defensive effort.

This team has so little talent . . . even Charlotte has a better starting five than the Nets on paper . . . They've got more offensive weapons, are younger, and more athletic. I don't understand why people don't appreciate the job Frank has done.
 
I agree that reganomics' reply was excellent. Thanks.

Dumpy, I totally agree re Swift and Hassell. They have to be part of whatever deals are made this summer, whether it's pairing one of them with RJ for some blockbuster or with picks and/or the Williamses.

Sean's athletic ability makes him an entertaining player, but I have my doubts about his long-term prospects (more due to motivation issues than talent), and I doubt he'll be playing big, consistent minutes under Frank anytime soon anyway. I have no problem with moving him if it helps bring back a Brand or other player that can contribute now.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Apr 18 2008, 01:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If you look at recent history, a traded draft pick is NEVER worth as much as the IDEA of the draft pick. Look at the lottery draft picks that have been dealt in draft-day trades, and they're rarely worth as much as the player that comes back.</div>

3 quick examples of trades for high picks that worked out well for the team receiving the better pick.

The Utah Jazz moved up from the #6 pick to the #3 pick in 2005
The Portland Trail Blazers moved up from the #4 pick to the #2 pick in 2006
The Detroit Pistons traded Darko for what ended up as the #15 pick in 2007
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Apr 18 2008, 01:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think they'll resign Diop, but I thought the same thing about Scalabrine and Mikki Moore, and Boston/Sac offered up a buttload of money.</div>

The difference is that Diop is actually worth the midlevel exception.

I honestly have no idea what the team should do this offseason. I've got some faith that Thorn can rip a team off in an RJ trade, and I'm hopeful that immediately following that he'll step down and let Kiki take over.

We'll see. But the roster as presently constituted isn't going anywhere, and I think management finally realizes that, so we'll see what happens when they deal with that reality.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Apr 18 2008, 12:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>All I know is, the Nets can't spend $10 million and 15% of their roster space on Stromile Swift and Trent Hassell. To move them, though, the Nets will have to combine them with the lottery pick or one of the Williamses. Wouldn't bother me in the least. If you look at recent history, a traded draft pick is NEVER worth as much as the IDEA of the draft pick. Look at the lottery draft picks that have been dealt in draft-day trades, and they're rarely worth as much as the player that comes back. This year, of course, it looks like 90% of the projected first-round picks are freshman, and it's notoriously difficult to project how well they'll play or how much they'll contribute their first year or two. For a team (the Nets) that apparently wants to turn it all around as quickly as possible, there is just too much risk involved to keep the pick. Of course, if they end up with one of the top three picks, that may be a different story.

I'd be shocked if the Nets got rid of Harris, Vince, or Boone. I think they'll resign Diop, but I thought the same thing about Scalabrine and Mikki Moore, and Boston/Sac offered up a buttload of money. I hope they can S&T Krstic, and get some asset back for him. I don't really care about anyone else. Hopefully, they can ditch Hassell, and if they insist on having a defensive specialist around, they could always bring Antoine back or sign Bobby Jones. I think it's obvious, though, that having a bunch of guys who don't play defense, and one defensive specialist on the floor, doesn't work (with the exception of a post defender like Collins/Diop).

I have no idea what to think about RJ. On one hand, I'd like him to retire a Net, on the other hand, I'd like to slap him silly until he promises to put in some defensive effort.

This team has so little talent . . . even Charlotte has a better starting five than the Nets on paper . . . They've got more offensive weapons, are younger, and more athletic. I don't understand why people don't appreciate the job Frank has done.</div>



Rudy Gay is one that comes to my head .. i bet houston is feeling pretty stupid. imagine TMAC YAO AND rudy
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Apr 18 2008, 01:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Apr 18 2008, 01:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If you look at recent history, a traded draft pick is NEVER worth as much as the IDEA of the draft pick. Look at the lottery draft picks that have been dealt in draft-day trades, and they're rarely worth as much as the player that comes back.</div>

3 quick examples of trades for high picks that worked out well for the team receiving the better pick.

The Utah Jazz moved up from the #6 pick to the #3 pick in 2005
The Portland Trail Blazers moved up from the #4 pick to the #2 pick in 2006
The Detroit Pistons traded Darko for what ended up as the #15 pick in 2007
</div>

I'm not talking about trading lottery picks for lottery picks, or lottery picks for still-developing players, but of course you knew that. I'm talking about trading a lottery pick where the primary asset coming back is a veteran player. For example, Jeff Green for Ray Allen.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Apr 18 2008, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Apr 18 2008, 01:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Apr 18 2008, 01:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If you look at recent history, a traded draft pick is NEVER worth as much as the IDEA of the draft pick. Look at the lottery draft picks that have been dealt in draft-day trades, and they're rarely worth as much as the player that comes back.</div>

3 quick examples of trades for high picks that worked out well for the team receiving the better pick.

The Utah Jazz moved up from the #6 pick to the #3 pick in 2005
The Portland Trail Blazers moved up from the #4 pick to the #2 pick in 2006
The Detroit Pistons traded Darko for what ended up as the #15 pick in 2007
</div>

I'm not talking about trading lottery picks for lottery picks, or lottery picks for still-developing players, but of course you knew that. I'm talking about trading a lottery pick where the primary asset coming back is a veteran player. For example, Jeff Green for Ray Allen.
</div>

Well for starters, the example you used is pretty crappy. The Sonics wanted to get worse as they wanted the fans not to show up at the arena.

Next, how many such trades have there been? In 2001 the Grizzlies made out great trading SAR for the right to pick Gasol. The same year, the Bulls traded Brand for the right to pick Tyson Chandler. Now, that didn't work out well for the Bulls, however, that was the Bulls fault. As soon as Tyson was traded away from the Bulls, he developed into one of the top Centers in the NBA.

In 2002, the Knicks traded Camby and the #7 pick (Nene) for Antonio McDyess. The Nuggets got the better end of that deal. In 2004, the Wizards traded the #5 pick (Devin Harris) for Antawn Jamison. While Jamison put up better stats, you also have consider that the Mavs wanted both Jamison and Walker gone at almost any cost.

Even limited to your narrow scope, it is at best 50/50 and not the bleak picture you are attempting to paint.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Apr 18 2008, 02:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy @ Apr 18 2008, 01:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If you look at recent history, a traded draft pick is NEVER worth as much as the IDEA of the draft pick. Look at the lottery draft picks that have been dealt in draft-day trades, and they're rarely worth as much as the player that comes back.</div>

3 quick examples of trades for high picks that worked out well for the team receiving the better pick.

The Utah Jazz moved up from the #6 pick to the #3 pick in 2005
The Portland Trail Blazers moved up from the #4 pick to the #2 pick in 2006
The Detroit Pistons traded Darko for what ended up as the #15 pick in 2007
</div>
What players came back in those trades?
 
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