Thoughts About the Debate

[ucatchtrout]

Wow! The same CBS that ran faked ANG documents by Dan Rather/Mary Mapes in order to try and sway the electorate in the 2004 election.

There is a reaons "journalists" have about that same respect as used-car salesmen in the Pew Polls, and at least used-car salesmen are trying to pretend that they are selling you something that has already been refected.

If you don't like cbs, thats up to you.

but its not like they were the only poll that showed him winning.

most of the other ones did too.

 

[maxiep]

Forget the polls, did anyone who watched that debate think McCain is for the middle class?

Yes. It's a silly argument because you don't use a specific term that you're not talking about them.

I was persuaded that McCain will fight to cut gov't spending and also sort of buy into the marverick idea, but McCain is big business and trickle down economics (which might not be a bad thing depending on your beliefs).

Actually, I think Sen. McCain is more focused on small business than big business. He definitely believes that people better know what to do with their own money than does the government. Detractors of that belief call it "trickle-down" economics.

Obama is for bolstering the middle class through taxing the wealthy (or who he believes is wealthy, above 250) and cutting out business loopholes.

Obama definitely focuses more on the underclass and lower middle class. I respect his compassion for those people. However, I don't believe that the response to four decades of failed policies to stop the cycle of poverty is just to do the same thing, but do more of it.

I remember when he was asked about a piece of legislation where he was wrong, and he brought up President Clinton's Welfare Reform. He was surprised that it worked. The problem was that he didn't learn the lesson of that legislation that sometime the best thing you can do for someone who receives help is to cut them off.

As for cutting business loopholes, without a concomitant lowering of the corporate tax, it will result in less investment, lower job creation and ultimately lower tax revenues. People decry the Laffer Curve, but it's premise is dead-on. It's just the production possibility curve concept applied to tax revenue.

Polls will change weekly. I think the polls might even reflect a growing dissatisfaction with the Palin pick (about time). I do believe the majority of the polls that Obama won slightly but neither canidate shot themselves in the foot. But it isn't about who won, it's about the type of gov't you want . . . and there is a clear difference here.

Obama is ahead by a touchdown with the clock running down. He's in the prevent defense right now. Don't give up the big play and keep the clock running by keeping his opponent in bounds. McCain has to take his shots down the field. Right now, it looks like an Obama presidency.

 

[Денг Гордон]

Obama led by 11 points (52 to 41) in the daily portion of the Research 2000 daily tracker. I take it that Obama won the debate, based on that.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Obama led by 11 points (52 to 41) in the daily portion of the Research 2000 daily tracker. I take it that Obama won the debate, based on that.

What does winning the debate mean? He got more independents to swing to his side or he out debated McCain . . . or both?

 

[mook]

The thought that sticks with me in this debate is, "Why can't they run the rest of their campaigns the same way?"

There was no discussion about the numbers of houses or Paris Hilton. It was a good, healthy debate that really got at some basic philosophical differences between the two candidates.

I thought McCain came off a little too like the Grumpy Old Man. (When he said, "Obama just doesn't get it," he seemed to mean "That whippersnapper just doesn't get it.") And his lack of eye contact and his inability to actually address his opponent came off like every angry person I've ever met who is trying his best to stifle his rage.

A lot of us men thought Obama looked weak by agreeing so much with McCain, but my wife actually found that appealing. Turns out she actually likes it when people can find things they agree on. Ask the women you know, and I bet they had a much different interpretation of that aspect than you or I did. Obama's rising numbers among women seem to carry that out.

Again, though, it really surprises me how the issues of Reverand Wright and being a closet Muslim have been swept aside, and I think that's Obama's biggest achievement in this debate. He came across as rational, thoughtful and willing to find agreement. Not the kind of extremist nutjob that he's been painted as by so many on the extreme.

If you don't agree, imagine that it was Obama who refused to make eye contact and refused to interact with his opponent. It would've been pretty easy to continue painting him as an ideological and religious radical if he'd just behaved like McCain.

 

[Денг Гордон]

mook, I thought the Obama "Just doesn't get it" was a shot back at Obama, for Obama constantly saying "John McCain doesn't not care, he just doesn't get it" when talking about the economic crisis, and other issues relating to the middle class.

Although this debate looks like nothing like the fun we have in store for Thursday.

From 538:

Capitol Hill sources are telling me that senior McCain people
are more than concerned about Palin.

The campaign has held a mock debate and a mock press conference; both are being described as "disastrous." One senior McCain aide was quoted as saying, "What are we going to do?" The McCain people want to move this first debate to some later, undetermined date, possibly never. People on the inside are saying the Alaska Governor is "clueless."

 

[Tortimer]

mook, I thought the Obama "Just doesn't get it" was a shot back at Obama, for Obama constantly saying "John McCain doesn't not care, he just doesn't get it" when talking about the economic crisis, and other issues relating to the middle class.

Although this debate looks like nothing like the fun we have in store for Thursday.

From 538:

I know many people have very low expectations for Palin in this debate. Bidden is a tool IMO and never says anything and his answers go on for ever. If he does happen to answer something it usually is a mistake and will make him look like a fool. I have a feeling Palin will hold her own with Bidden and that will be a big win in people's mind considering how many think she is going to get killed in the debate. I'm not sure of your quote either and I don't believe McCain is that worried.

 

[mook]

I know many people have very low expectations for Palin in this debate. Bidden is a tool IMO and never says anything and his answers go on for ever. If he does happen to answer something it usually is a mistake and will make him look like a fool. I have a feeling Palin will hold her own with Bidden and that will be a big win in people's mind considering how many think she is going to get killed in the debate. I'm not sure of your quote either and I don't believe McCain is that worried.

My big concern is that Biden will bring a bazooka to go shoot fish in a barrel. (The bazooka being Joe's mouth, the fish being Palin's going-nowhere answers.)

Fareed Zakaria, who doesn't strike me as that partisan, has called for her to bow out:
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/fareed_zakaria/2008/09/palin_is_ready_please.html

Just read the Palin quotes he cites. It's painful.

COURIC: Why isn't it better, Governor Palin, to spend $700 billion helping middle-class families who are struggling with health care, housing, gas and groceries; allow them to spend more and put more money into the economy instead of helping these big financial institutions that played a role in creating this mess?
PALIN: That's why I say I, like every American I'm speaking with, were ill about this position that we have been put in where it is the taxpayers looking to bail out. But ultimately, what the bailout does is help those who are concerned about the health-care reform that is needed to help shore up our economy, helping the--it's got to be all about job creation, too, shoring up our economy and putting it back on the right track. So health-care reform and reducing taxes and reining in spending has got to accompany tax reductions and tax relief for Americans. And trade, we've got to see trade as opportunity, not as a competitive, scary thing. But one in five jobs being created in the trade sector today, we've got to look at that as more opportunity. All those things under the umbrella of job creation. This bailout is a part of that.

Joe, just remember that there's no point in going in with RPG's when your opponent is already committing sepuku. People may blame you for the bits of brain splattered on the wall.

 

[Tortimer]

My big concern is that Biden will bring a bazooka to go shoot fish in a barrel. (The bazooka being Joe's mouth, the fish being Palin's going-nowhere answers.)

Fareed Zakaria, who doesn't strike me as that partisan, has called for her to bow out:
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/postglobal/fareed_zakaria/2008/09/palin_is_ready_please.html

Just read the Palin quotes he cites. It's painful.



Joe, just remember that there's no point in going in with RPG's when your opponent is already committing sepuku. People may blame you for the bits of brain splattered on the wall.

I already seen and read that and a couple other conservatives wanting Palin to bow out. There are always going to be people with their own agenda and I'm not sure what theirs are but there is no way she should bow out. Most of the Republican base still love Palin and if she left McCain would lose by a landslide. Of coarse she has lost some of her luster but is more popular think you seem to think. I have a feeling she will actually win the debate or at least be equal with Biden. I think most of the complaints about Palin are from her being an outsider and not trusting what she might do. She doesn't have enough experience and hasn't looked great in those first two interviews. The Democrats have been hammering on Palin but that will backfire on them once this debate is over and IMO Biden looking like a tool. If I'm wrong I will admit it but lets wait and see after Thursday. You might just change your mind.

 

[mook]

I already seen and read that and a couple other conservatives wanting Palin to bow out. There are always going to be people with their own agenda and I'm not sure what theirs are but there is no way she should bow out. Most of the Republican base still love Palin and if she left McCain would lose by a landslide. Of coarse she has lost some of her luster but is more popular think you seem to think. I have a feeling she will actually win the debate or at least be equal with Biden. I think most of the complaints about Palin are from her being an outsider and not trusting what she might do. She doesn't have enough experience and hasn't looked great in those first two interviews. The Democrats have been hammering on Palin but that will backfire on them once this debate is over and IMO Biden looking like a tool. If I'm wrong I will admit it but lets wait and see after Thursday. You might just change your mind.

Everybody has a bad interview. Sometimes two in a row. So I can certainly empathize, especially with somebody who hasn't been on the big stage before.

To me the most telling thing was that she wasn't available to deliver talking points after the first McCain/Obama debate, and she wasn't available when McCain ducked out of the Letterman interview. I mean, these kind of cameos are the sort of quick-and-dirty, softball exhibits that make you seem wise and personable without really having to know too much.

In fact, she hasn't made any of the usual late night shows you'd expect to see a Veep candidate make. And that's a veep candidate for a campaign that's doing well. A campaign that's lost momentum should be out there flogging their hottest act as hard as possible.

That the McCain campaign has shown so little confidence in her to this point should be the biggest red flag of all.

 

[mook]

After I wrote that, I realized that Biden hasn't been on the big stage much either, so maybe I'm not being completely fair. I'd guess the bigger difference there is that nobody, even the Democrats, are really that eager to see Biden. We know his story, we've seen him before, and although he's interesting he's pretty much old news for a politician. I don't know that the late night shows are dying to have him on.

But Palin--she's got to be the hottest ticket in Washington, even now.

 

[Tortimer]

Everybody has a bad interview. Sometimes two in a row. So I can certainly empathize, especially with somebody who hasn't been on the big stage before.

To me the most telling thing was that she wasn't available to deliver talking points after the first McCain/Obama debate, and she wasn't available when McCain ducked out of the Letterman interview. I mean, these kind of cameos are the sort of quick-and-dirty, softball exhibits that make you seem wise and personable without really having to know too much.

In fact, she hasn't made any of the usual late night shows you'd expect to see a Veep candidate make. And that's a veep candidate for a campaign that's doing well. A campaign that's lost momentum should be out there flogging their hottest act as hard as possible.

That the McCain campaign has shown so little confidence in her to this point should be the biggest red flag of all.

I did read Palin and the McCain people were thinking of having Palin on SNL. I'm not sure if this would be good but I could see it being very funny and I know I wouldn't miss it for anything.

 

[mook]

I did read Palin and the McCain people were thinking of having Palin on SNL. I'm not sure if this would be good but I could see it being very funny and I know I wouldn't miss it for anything.

Now that you mention it, that's a fantastic idea. If she could manage to say something intelligent to the Tina Fey/hick version of her, it could do a lot to overhaul her growing image of cluelessness.

Wonder why haven't they done it already? Seems like a really obvious move....

Could be that the writers of SNL, who are obviously pretty left wing, aren't willing to write something that makes her look good. Just speculating.

 

[julius]

Now that you mention it, that's a fantastic idea. If she could manage to say something intelligent to the Tina Fey/hick version of her, it could do a lot to overhaul her growing image of cluelessness.

Wonder why haven't they done it already? Seems like a really obvious move....

Could be that the writers of SNL, who are obviously pretty left wing, aren't willing to write something that makes her look good. Just speculating.

the only way she'd say something that was intelligent was if the SNL writers wrote it for her beforehand.

 

[julius]

Wouldn't you think that the Obama campaign would be running with the lack of Palin appearances, by having Biden appear as often as possible?

 

[Tortimer]

Now that you mention it, that's a fantastic idea. If she could manage to say something intelligent to the Tina Fey/hick version of her, it could do a lot to overhaul her growing image of cluelessness.

Wonder why haven't they done it already? Seems like a really obvious move....

Could be that the writers of SNL, who are obviously pretty left wing, aren't willing to write something that makes her look good. Just speculating.

I know they are left wing but I really think they would be fair with Palin at least I hope so. I think Palin and McCain people would have a right to see what things they are going to show on SNL and have the right drop some things. I have read that from other SNL hosts.

 

[Tortimer]

Wouldn't you think that the Obama campaign would be running with the lack of Palin appearances, by having Biden appear as often as possible?

IMO it is because Biden would even make a biger fool of himself and he already has made some major mistakes with the few times he has been seen. You guys just wait to see the debate Thursday and then come back here and we can discussion how bad Biden is and not Palin.

 

[mook]

Wouldn't you think that the Obama campaign would be running with the lack of Palin appearances, by having Biden appear as often as possible?

Frankly, I think both candidates want to bury their Veeps in soundproof glass, where all can be seen and nothing heard.

I'm hoping this Thursday is a lot like that time my mom and sister-in-law got drunk at Thanksgiving and finally went at it. Dad and my brother were too drunk themselves to do much to stifle it, so it was just this awesome tirade of base insults that had been stewing for years.

As an innocent bystander who merely got to sit from a safe distance and watch the insanity unravel, it was fantastic.

As bad as things have been lately, I think we could all use a night of hilarious stupidity.

 

[Tortimer]

Now that you mention it, that's a fantastic idea. If she could manage to say something intelligent to the Tina Fey/hick version of her, it could do a lot to overhaul her growing image of cluelessness.

Wonder why haven't they done it already? Seems like a really obvious move....

Could be that the writers of SNL, who are obviously pretty left wing, aren't willing to write something that makes her look good. Just speculating.

There is just so many funny things SNL could do with Palin. Her two interviews, Obama and the Lipstick on a pig, The woman of the view and some of the other left wing movie stars etc. It would be one of the funniest SNL ever and I think if done right would actually help McCain/Palin. I guess if in the next couple weeks if it looks hopeless for McCain they might as well try it and see what happens.

 

[Dumpy]

After I wrote that, I realized that Biden hasn't been on the big stage much either, so maybe I'm not being completely fair. I'd guess the bigger difference there is that nobody, even the Democrats, are really that eager to see Biden. We know his story, we've seen him before, and although he's interesting he's pretty much old news for a politician. I don't know that the late night shows are dying to have him on.

But Palin--she's got to be the hottest ticket in Washington, even now.

Biden has made over 100 appearances and interviews since being named the VP candidate. Biden is who he is--a very experienced, very knowledgable guy who is an extreme E--that is, he talks while he is working out the answer in his head, and has a tendency to articulate every thought that pops into his head. Lots of people are that way.

 

[Dumpy]

Could be that the writers of SNL, who are obviously pretty left wing, aren't willing to write something that makes her look good. Just speculating.

My experience is that comedians don't play favorites. They are interested in getting the laugh.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Skimming throught this, I see tortimer's point about if Palin just holds her own, that may be a victory.

I don't study polls but I saw a jump in McCain's campaign when Palin was annouced as the VP running mate. I saw the excitment go up another level after the Palin speech. I am now sensing the excitiment is dying down after a few painful interivews and some overall hiding of Palin.

I agree everyone is expecting Palin to have her moose handed to her at the debate. But if Palin somehow comes across like she did at the convention, it might just be the kick in the pants McCain's campaign needs.

I beleive I am with many voters in that I'm not totally against McCain and would consider him more if it wasn't for the obvious political pick of Palin. But if Palin proves voters wrong and that she is worthy of a VP nominee, that will bolster voter's confidence in McCain.

McCain needed to take a gamble with his campaign and did with Palin. Friday morning we will see if that gamble paid off. Palin couldn't possibly change her latest image during the debate . . . or can she?

 

[maxiep]

I can't believe that people think having someone who is running for the Vice Presidency should appear on a comedy show with six weeks left in the campaign. It's a colossal waste of time. Have them out campaigning or have them on real news shows.

 

[mook]

I can't believe that people think having someone who is running for the Vice Presidency should appear on a comedy show with six weeks left in the campaign. It's a colossal waste of time. Have them out campaigning or have them on real news shows.

Hey, as a citizen I'd much rather see her appear on the Sunday morning circuit, and I've said so before.

Strategically speaking, though, if McCain wants her to be seen and not really heard, SNL might not be a bad place to show her. Something carefully scripted where she can appear smart.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

I can't believe that people think having someone who is running for the Vice Presidency should appear on a comedy show with six weeks left in the campaign. It's a colossal waste of time. Have them out campaigning or have them on real news shows.

Didn't Clinton play the saxs on David Letterman one election year . . . I thought that worked out for him real well. It was cool, he put the shades on and showed some lip.

 

[maxiep]

Didn't Clinton play the saxs on David Letterman one election year . . . I thought that worked out for him real well. It was cool, he put the shades on and showed some lip.

Well, there are always those who decide on their presidential picks while watching Entertainment Tonight. I prefer to make my decision based on more serious matters.

 

[Minstrel]

Didn't Clinton play the saxs on David Letterman one election year . . . I thought that worked out for him real well. It was cool, he put the shades on and showed some lip.

He did, which some people feel was a pivotal moment. Of course, it's very easy to overrate the importance of a single moment in creating a narrative. I think it makes a nice symbol of what won that Presidency for Clinton and cost Bush the Elder...Bush seemed out of touch, an old party insider and increasingly culturally irrelevant. Clinton ably cast himself as a younger, connected new-comer. Playing the saxophone on a late-night show gave him the "cool political outsider" cred while still impressing people with his intelligence.