Thoughts, prayers, and hate

[Spud147]

Spud, discrimination is not a civil right. Period. No one's rights are being violated when a business is asked to do business. Maybe there is only one bakery that makes wedding cakes? Doesn't matter. There is no civil rights violation to being asked to do your damn job. If a baker is unwilling to bake, find another job. If a clerk can't issue marriage licenses, get another job. If a pharmacist can't fill prescriptions, get another job. What if it's hiring? You're a Christian, it offends you that gay people exist, you want us all dead, so your civil rights are violated if you have to hire people regardless of sexual orientation?

It's bogus. Fake argument. Persecuted bakers, persecuted Nazis, men pretending to be transwomen, all bullshit. Total complete utter bullshit. Just putting frosting on bigotry. The Congress called hearings on this bill because they consider gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender Americans inferior beings not entitled to the rights heteros take for granted. They called hearings on the month anniversary of a massacre of mostly gay people to underline their contempt for us. All this shit about persecuted Christian bakers and persecuted Nazis is just a big pile of bullshit. No one is proposing a bill that would allow county clerks to refuse to issue marriage licenses to Nazis, they are proposing a bill that allows clerks to refuse to issue licenses to gay and lesbian couples. No one is proposing a bill that would allow employers to refuse Christian employees time off under Federal Family and Medical Leave Act to care for sick spouse or child, they are proposing a bill that would allow employers to refuse gay employees time off under FMLA. No one is proposing a bill that would allow federal contractors to refuse to hire Christians, they are proposing a bill that would allow federal contractors to refuse to hire LGBTQ people. No one is proposing a bill that would prohibit Nazis from using public facilities, Congress is proposing a bill that would prohibit transgender people from using public facilities.

Gays, lesbians, bi, transgender people. Not Christians. Not Nazis. So stop spreading the bullshit. You can spread bullshit a mile thick and it doesn't cover up the fact that Congress is proposing the widest ranging antigay bill in history on the one month anniversary of the worst antigay violence in the country's history.

This did go way off the original topic and your point was much bigger than a wedding cake. I think we pretty much agreed agree the bill is BS, and you even said you knew it wasn't going to pass, so we didn't take it much further. None of us intended to minimize it Crandc and I apologize if anything I wrote made you feel that way. It just spun off into an interesting philosophical discussion with no offense intend.

It just got me to thinking about where you would philosophically draw the line regarding the right to religious expression. I work with a risk manager who is a devout Mormon and was assigned to work with a casino. She refused to work with them because of her religious beliefs. My company was easily able to accommodate that but should they? I was surprised when they did it because she had agreed to do a certain job without that contingency when she was hired and could extend that argument to bars, liquor stores, strip clubs, etc. If you start making that exception to a Mormon why wouldn't you then have to extend that to other religions. On the other hand, what if they turned around at a later date and, for no reason, assigned every casino, bar, liquor store, and strip club to her... would they at that point be vulnerable to a lawsuit for harassment due to her religious beliefs? Is the Catholic church going to have to purchase insurance coverage including birth control even though they strictly forbid using it? If I remember right Hobby Lobby lost the "I'm Catholic" argument and was told to include birth control in their health plan because it discriminated against women. While the feminist in me rejoiced the objective part of me thought... hmmmm, I do see a grey area there. Would a Satanist legally have the right to demand a mosque open it's doors for a ceremony?

 

[Minstrel]

So gay person goes without cake, and gay haters die from diabetes while their business fails. Who gets the last laugh?

Cake should be enjoyed in moderation. I'm anti-diabetes.

 

[Spud147]

Cake should be enjoyed in moderation. I'm anti-diabetes.

Finally something we can all agree on... I think... is there a religions based around worshipping cake? What about sugar free cake?

 

[Denny Crane]

Yup. That's the point I made. We agree. Hooray for legal protections.

There is no massive discrimination there. No there there.

Glad we agree!

 

[rasheedfan2005]

Cake should be enjoyed in moderation. I'm anti-diabetes.

As long as you eat your cake in your own home and not in public im cool with it.

 

[Denny Crane]

This did go way off the original topic and your point was much bigger than a wedding cake. I think we pretty much agreed agree the bill is BS, and you even said you knew it wasn't going to pass, so we didn't take it much further. None of us intended to minimize it Crandc and I apologize if anything I wrote made you feel that way. It just spun off into an interesting philosophical discussion with no offense intend.

It just got me to thinking about where you would philosophically draw the line regarding the right to religious expression. I work with a risk manager who is a devout Mormon and was assigned to work with a casino. She refused to work with them because of her religious beliefs. My company was easily able to accommodate that but should they? I was surprised when they did it because she had agreed to do a certain job without that contingency when she was hired and could extend that argument to bars, liquor stores, strip clubs, etc. If you start making that exception to a Mormon why wouldn't you then have to extend that to other religions. On the other hand, what if they turned around at a later date and, for no reason, assigned every casino, bar, liquor store, and strip club to her... would they at that point be vulnerable to a lawsuit for harassment due to her religious beliefs? Is the Catholic church going to have to purchase insurance coverage including birth control even though they strictly forbid using it? If I remember right Hobby Lobby lost the "I'm Catholic" argument and was told to include birth control in their health plan because it discriminated against women. While the feminist in me rejoiced the objective part of me thought... hmmmm, I do see a grey area there. Would a Satanist legally have the right to demand a mosque open it's doors for a ceremony?

In Hobby Lobby, the Court ruled that closely held for-profit corporations do not have to provide abortion coverage if it violates the owners' religious principles.

 

[Minstrel]

There is no massive discrimination there. No there there.

Glad we agree!

Yes, we agree. Thanks to legal protections, there is no massive discrimination there. No there there.

 

[Spud147]

In Hobby Lobby, the Court ruled that closely held for-profit corporations do not have to provide abortion coverage if it violates the owners' religious principles.

And while I am 1000% pro-choice I can see that they have the right to argue that.

 

[Denny Crane]

Yes, we agree. Thanks to legal protections, there is no massive discrimination there. No there there.

It has nothing to do with legal protections.

 

[Denny Crane]

And while I am 1000% pro-choice I can see that they have the right to argue that.

I'm 100% pro choice, too. Pro choice wherever a person can make a choice, in fact.

 

[rasheedfan2005]

@crandc you seem to lump every person who self identifies as chritian into 1 kind of person. I hope some day you can be less prejudice and see there are many perfectly fine christians out there.

 

[Spud147]

I'm 100% pro choice, too. Pro choice wherever a person can make a choice, in fact.

Do you know if there is any kind of legal protection for a religious location? I know lots of churches refuse to allow people to get married in their facilities if the couple is living together outside of marriage or because the couple doesn't attend the church. What legally allows them to refuse service?

 

[Denny Crane]

Do you know if there is any kind of legal protection for a religious location? I know lots of churches refuse to allow people to get married in their facilities if the couple is living together outside of marriage or because the couple doesn't attend the church. What legally allows them to refuse service?

1st amendment. The government making rules for how religious institutions or religion works is, in effect, establishing a religion, no? Establishing "catholicism with X rule" or "catholicism without Y practice."

I don't understand the reasoning for tax exempt status. It's not a violation of church and state to tax an organization's income. As long as there's no extra high tax on one religion vs, another vs. businesses. They are businesses in the incorporation sense, even if 501(c)3.

They certainly can deny to marry a gay couple, though some churches will. I don't see why it should matter if your union is blessed. It only need be blessed by the justice of the peace so you can get all the benefits of marriage.

 

[Denny Crane]

If it were up to me, religion would go away due to people figuring out there's no point to it.

 

[Spud147]

1st amendment. The government making rules for how religious institutions or religion works is, in effect, establishing a religion, no? Establishing "catholicism with X rule" or "catholicism without Y practice."

I don't understand the reasoning for tax exempt status. It's not a violation of church and state to tax an organization's income. As long as there's no extra high tax on one religion vs, another vs. businesses. They are businesses in the incorporation sense, even if 501(c)3.

They certainly can deny to marry a gay couple, though some churches will. I don't see why it should matter if your union is blessed. It only need be blessed by the justice of the peace so you can get all the benefits of marriage.

But most churches don't sell goods or services so they don't technically earn income. They're supposedly not set up or intended to make a "profit".

 

[Denny Crane]

But most churches don't sell goods or services so they don't technically earn income. They're supposedly not set up or intended to make a "profit".

They pass the plate. They offer salvation in exchange for a tythe.

They own massive tracts of land in expensive areas and the buildings can be hugely ornate and expensive to build. The Vatican has $billions in assets in its bank. Maybe as many as $15B. Sounds like profit to me.

 

[Spud147]

They pass the plate. They offer salvation in exchange for a tythe.

They own massive tracts of land in expensive areas and the buildings can be hugely ornate and expensive to build. The Vatican has $billions in assets in its bank. Maybe as many as $15B. Sounds like profit to me.

Ah but they don't offer salvation for tithe... they offer a place to meet, educate yourself, and practice a religious faith and they charge nothing for it. Tithing is voluntary.

 

[rasheedfan2005]

Do you know if there is any kind of legal protection for a religious location? I know lots of churches refuse to allow people to get married in their facilities if the couple is living together outside of marriage or because the couple doesn't attend the church. What legally allows them to refuse service?

when i was engaged the pastor basically told us what he expected us to do or he wouldnt marry us. my solution was fuck him we can go some where else, but she was enamored by him, and as far as I know 9 years later, she still does everything he tells her. fucking creepy.

 

[Denny Crane]

Ah but they don't offer salvation for tithe... they offer a place to meet, educate yourself, and practice a religious faith and they charge nothing for it. Tithing is voluntary.

They should still be taxed. They use the same roads we do.

 

[rasheedfan2005]

Ah but they don't offer salvation for tithe... they offer a place to meet, educate yourself, and practice a religious faith and they charge nothing for it. Tithing is voluntary.

sort of fact, while tithing is supposed to be voluntary many churches damn near require it. mormons especially. some catholics and baptists are up there too as far as really pushing for the shit. i was demonized by my old pastor for showing him in the bible that the tithe was not necessary. he had been preaching for over a year about how we as a congregation needed to tithe first and trust god to pay our bills. when i told him maybe he is the one that should trust god to fill his building project funds i was demonized by him here it is 9 years later and my poor mother and uncle are still praying i will "come back to him like the prodigal son." fucking cult leaders make me sick.

 

[rasheedfan2005]

They should still be taxed. They use the same roads we do.

my issue is if what you donate is a tax write off then their income should be taxed. i caught a pastor fudging the financial report. he played high and mighty from the pulpit saying he tithes on his modest wage so we should too. he was paying himself 60k a year, tax free, and his house and vehicle were "company" owned so they were all tax write offs.

 

[Spud147]

sort of fact, while tithing is supposed to be voluntary many churches damn near require it. mormons especially. some catholics and baptists are up there too as far as really pushing for the shit. i was demonized by my old pastor for showing him in the bible that the tithe was not necessary. he had been preaching for over a year about how we as a congregation needed to tithe first and trust god to pay our bills. when i told him maybe he is the one that should trust god to fill his building project funds i was demonized by him here it is 9 years later and my poor mother and uncle are still praying i will "come back to him like the prodigal son." fucking cult leaders make me sick.

Oh, I've seen it in action, believe me... I'm just saying that most churches would argue that it is all voluntary. Denny makes a good point about them using public services such as roads... how are other nonprofits (Goodwill, Special Olympics, etc.) "taxed" for their use?

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

@crandc you seem to lump every person who self identifies as chritian into 1 kind of person. I hope some day you can be less prejudice and see there are many perfectly fine christians out there.

Agreed, crandc always on her high horse about how christians are bigots etc but her prejudice for christians is beyond compare

 

[Minstrel]

Agreed, crandc always on her high horse about how christians are bigots etc but her prejudice for christians is beyond compare

I don't agree with that. She takes to task Christians who are actively bigoted, not all Christians. I haven't seen her say bigoted things about Christians or disparage Christians as a class.

 

[OSUBlazerfan]

Still going on about persecuted Nazis. Please tell me how many people were murdered under the rainbow flag.

So then go fucking fight that war, and leave people and their bakery's alone. But noooooo, the LGBT's have to go to the "christian" bakery because they want to make a political statement. It goes both ways...

 

[rasheedfan2005]

I don't agree with that. She takes to task Christians who are actively bigoted, not all Christians. I haven't seen her say bigoted things about Christians or disparage Christians as a class.

the entire OP basically said fuck your prayers to everyone who offered them because of some retard bill that a few idiots are trying to pass. that shows prejudice and stereotyping. her post assumes that any professing christian is anti gay and full of hate based on the example of a few.

 

[Minstrel]

the entire OP basically said fuck your prayers to everyone who offered them because of some retard bill that a few idiots are trying to pass.

Didn't look that way to me:

Sometimes legislators introduce bills with no chance of passing in order to make a political point they consider important. In this case, to show the world how much they hate gay and trans people. And women who have sex.

I guess the reason their "thoughts and prayers" were so generic was that they were actually praying for all of us to be murdered. FUCK their prayers.

To me, it seems "their" refers to the legislators who, in her view, "showed the world how much they hate gay and trans people."

Of course, she can speak for herself, but that's how it appeared to me.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

If it were up to me, religion and the Kardashians would go away due to people figuring out there's no point to it.

Fixed it

 

[Spud147]

Didn't look that way to me:



To me, it seems "their" refers to the legislators who, in her view, "showed the world how much they hate gay and trans people."

Of course, she can speak for herself, but that's how it appeared to me.

The point Rasheedfan is trying to make is that by rejecting all the "thoughts and prayers" coming from the "Republicans" (including those who would never have anything to do with this ridiculous bill because that hatred is contrary to that person's personal Christian beliefs) she is stereotyping.

It's like saying all Christians should be lumped in with those who bomb abortion clinics or all Muslims should be lumped in with the man who killed the people in Orlando. These are not the teachings of either of these religions, these are perverted versions with some mental illness added in. As a Christian myself I can tell you that these "Christian" groups who preach hate are an embarrassment to the vast majority of us and completely contrary to what we believe. I've never said anything before but I do sometimes feel pretty stung by Crandc's generic broad statements about Christians but I know her intent and understand where her heart is and why she is outraged by the inexcusable behavior of these extremist groups.

 

[MarAzul]

They certainly can deny to marry a gay couple

>>> I don't think any church "deny" marriage to Gay people. Marriage is a convenient between a man and a woman in the eyes of their God.
That is the definition of the word and the word does not apply to another union or partnership.

If it were up to me, religion would go away due to people figuring out there's no point to it.

>>> It has no point for you, no doubt. Not true for everyone, so your opinion is really has no point beyond yourself.

They pass the plate. They offer salvation in exchange for a tythe.

>>> Geez man! No amount of money tythed will get you or anyone else salvation. I don't even try.

They should still be taxed. They use the same roads we do.

>>> I can buy fuel with the taxed exempted for off the road use. But the minister pays that road tax just like you an me to use it on the road.

To me there is no difference between people giving money to thier Church and people joining together in a 501 corporation. MY home owners association is a 501c thing, no tax paid on the monies collected to maintain the common roads. People do the same thing to maintain their church. Putting a tax on it would have been a gross violation to call that income. That is the sort of discrimination you apply when you want something to go away. Like taxing employers for providing healthcare to retirees.
When you think of all the things a church does with the monies they collect, it makes your weak point above about religion should go away utterly ridiculous. Many schools run by churches are far better than the public schools, no question. I could add much to this but not now...


Denny is off his meds today. Not much coming out right.