Time to cut Israel loose?

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I'd be fine with not giving Israel money. I actually think that is very called for in a time when we should be looking to cut spending.
 
It's not time to cut Israel loose, but I've always wondered why we gave them so much and received so little in return.
 
BLAZER PROPHET said:
It's not time to cut Israel loose, but I've always wondered why we gave them so much and received so little in return.
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Jimmy Carter bought peace between Egypt and Israel by guaranteeing both would receive a lot of foreign aid dollars.

http://middleeast.about.com/od/arabisraeliconflict/f/camp-david-accords.htm

For almost two weeks at Camp David, Carter shuttled between Sadat and Begin, often doing his utmost to keep the talks from breaking down. Sadat and Begin never met face to face for 10 days. Sadat was ready to leave Camp David on the 11th day. So was Begin. Carter cajoled, threatened, bribed (with what eventually would become the United States' two biggest foreign-aid packages, one for Egypt, one for Israel), though he never threatened Israel with an aid cut-off, as Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford had in their tense moments with Israel.
 
Denny Crane said:
Jimmy Carter bought peace between Egypt and Israel by guaranteeing both would receive a lot of foreign aid dollars.
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As your own blurb points out, the US has been sending money to Israel since long before Carter. I realize you have an obsessive hatred of Carter, but trying to blame him for everything that's happened in US history is a bit silly. :)
 
Especially when you look at how badly Nixon and Ford failed at keeping peace in the Mid-East.
 
Minstrel said:
As your own blurb points out, the US has been sending money to Israel since long before Carter. I realize you have an obsessive hatred of Carter, but trying to blame him for everything that's happened in US history is a bit silly. :)
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Blame? I don't see it as blame.

I see it as an obligation he made for us that we're stuck with.
 
If only we would have encouraged the Jews to settle in Mexico instead of where they are now...
 
SlyPokerDog said:
If only we would have encouraged the Jews to settle in Mexico instead of where they are now...
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Then what? We could get a good bagel south of the border?

barfo
 
Denny Crane said:
Blame? I don't see it as blame.
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I see unbalancing the area by pumping far more aid and weapons into Isreal than Palestine as blame-worthy. And it goes back much further than Carter.

I see it as an obligation he made for us that we're stuck with.
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He and other Presidents made for us.
 
Minstrel said:
I see unbalancing the area by pumping far more aid and weapons into Isreal than Palestine as blame-worthy. And it goes back much further than Carter.



He and other Presidents made for us.
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No other presidents made any obligations to Israel for us. If you think I'm wrong, feel free to name another president who obligated us to making yearly payments to Israel before Carter.

BTW,

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/foreign_aid.html

Prior to 1971, Israel received a total of only $277 million in military aid, all in the form of loans as credit sales. The bulk of the economic aid was also lent to Israel. By comparison, the Arab states received nearly three times as much aid before 1971, $4.4 billion, or $170 million per year. Moreover, unlike Israel, which receives nearly all its aid from the United States, Arab nations have gotten assistance from Asia, Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union and the European Community. Congress first designated a specific amount of aid for Israel (an "earmark") in 1971.
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Denny Crane said:
No other presidents made any obligations to Israel for us. If you think I'm wrong, feel free to name another president who obligated us to making yearly payments to Israel before Carter.
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Aid is an obligation made on our (the people's) behalf, even if it is not yearly. I wasn't making a distinction between one-time obligations and continuing obligations.

As for your "BTW," the Palestinian people are not interchangeable with "the Arab states." The US unbalanced Israel with respect to the Palestinian people. I said nothing about the rest of the Arab world.
 
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I don't know anything about this particular "obligation," but is our country really accountable for an ongoing commitment it's been fulfilling since 1978? Do we plan on sending dough there in the year 2099 because of something a president (or presidents) promised decades and decades ago?

Personally, it just sounds silly to me that we're somehow locked into paying Israel because of Jimmy Carter. Hell, we were locked into solar power in the White House until the day after he lost his election.
 
Denny Crane said:
No other presidents made any obligations to Israel for us. If you think I'm wrong, feel free to name another president who obligated us to making yearly payments to Israel before Carter.
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I sense some sort of semantic game here. We've made annual payments to Israel since the 1940s. Given that, does it matter if we are "obligated" or not?

barfo
 
I wonder how much aid Israel is willing to give us to bomb the $hit out of Iran for them?
 
Minstrel said:
Aid is an obligation made on our (the people's) behalf, even if it is not yearly. I wasn't making a distinction between one-time obligations and continuing obligations.

As for your "BTW," the Palestinian people are not interchangeable with "the Arab states." The US unbalanced Israel with respect to the Palestinian people. I said nothing about the rest of the Arab world.
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We have no obligation to pay $.01 in foreign aid to the Palestinian people, yet we do. Rather generous of us.
 
mook said:
I don't know anything about this particular "obligation," but is our country really accountable for an ongoing commitment it's been fulfilling since 1978? Do we plan on sending dough there in the year 2099 because of something a president (or presidents) promised decades and decades ago?

Personally, it just sounds silly to me that we're somehow locked into paying Israel because of Jimmy Carter. Hell, we were locked into solar power in the White House until the day after he lost his election.
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barfo said:
I sense some sort of semantic game here. We've made annual payments to Israel since the 1940s. Given that, does it matter if we are "obligated" or not?

barfo
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Article VI of our Constitution:

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
 
Minstrel said:
I'll do it for just a few billion in aid.
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blog+donald+torpedo+bomber.jpg
 
Denny Crane said:
Article VI of our Constitution:

All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
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I'm not sure I see your point. If we choose to pay them every year, does it matter if we have an obligation to pay them? Only if we are considering not paying them. Which we aren't, as far as I can see.

It's like whether I have a contractual obligation to buy electricity from PGE (Portland General Electric). I don't think I do, but I'm absolutely going to buy electricity, and they are the only provider, so what does it matter if I'm obligated to buy from them or not?

barfo
 
I was under the impression that much of our foreign policy with Israel involves keeping them on a leash, rather than them "asking us to bomb Iran for them".

Others may know better (Israel is not my area of expertise), but for all their faults, being afraid to take care of business when they feel threatened doesn't seem to be one of them.
 
barfo said:
I'm not sure I see your point. If we choose to pay them every year, does it matter if we have an obligation to pay them? Only if we are considering not paying them. Which we aren't, as far as I can see.

It's like whether I have a contractual obligation to buy electricity from PGE (Portland General Electric). I don't think I do, but I'm absolutely going to buy electricity, and they are the only provider, so what does it matter if I'm obligated to buy from them or not?

barfo
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The united states signed a slew of actual treaty documents with Israel and Egypt that were voted on and entered into the congressional record.

So in your analogy, it would be as if you signed a contract to buy your electricity from PGE.
 
Denny Crane said:
The united states signed a slew of actual treaty documents with Israel and Egypt that were voted on and entered into the congressional record.

So in your analogy, it would be as if you signed a contract to buy your electricity from PGE.
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Yes. My point is, my actual electricity purchases from PGE don't depend on whether I signed a contract with PGE.

Sometimes the contract doesn't matter.

barfo
 
BrianFromWA said:
I was under the impression that much of our foreign policy with Israel involves keeping them on a leash, rather than them "asking us to bomb Iran for them".

Others may know better (Israel is not my area of expertise), but for all their faults, being afraid to take care of business when they feel threatened doesn't seem to be one of them.
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Giving them huge amounts of arms seems like an odd way of keeping them on a leash. Unless we think they'd get even more arms for free from someone else?

barfo
 
barfo said:
Yes. My point is, my actual electricity purchases from PGE don't depend on whether I signed a contract with PGE.

Sometimes the contract doesn't matter.

barfo
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I guess you think the constitution doesn't matter? All the presidents and congresses since Carter have lived up to the obligation for some reason. Feel free to say what that "some reason" is if you differ.
 
barfo said:
Giving them huge amounts of arms seems like an odd way of keeping them on a leash. Unless we think they'd get even more arms for free from someone else?

barfo
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The arms we've allowed them to buy are required by law to be used for defensive purposes only. I remember US stopped selling certain types of weapons to Israel because they were used by Israel during an invasion of Lebanon.
 
Denny Crane said:
I guess you think the constitution doesn't matter? All the presidents and congresses since Carter have lived up to the obligation for some reason. Feel free to say what that "some reason" is if you differ.
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The same "some reason" that all the presidents from Truman to Ford "lived up to the obligation".

The reason is that the US believes it has a strategic interest in funding Israel.

barfo
 
Denny Crane said:
The arms we've allowed them to buy are required by law to be used for defensive purposes only.
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And this creampuff was driven only to church by my grandmother.

barfo
 
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