Time to trade CJ

[TorturedBlazerFan]

the strength of the NBA is at SF...that's the position that wins championships most often and is named MVP of the finals more. If the choice is being weak at SG or being weak at SF, I'd prefer to be weaker at SG. I think that's especially true considering the defensive versatility good SF's bring to the floor.

CJ isnt getting the Blazers a Superstar SF though... KD, Kawhi, PG13, Lebron, none of the guys capable of finals MVP the Blazers could get if they gave up Dame and every draft pick they can give up.

For CJ they’d get like a mediocre SF...?

 

[BlayZa]

we need to change how we use CJ. or at least try it first.

atm we look to dame to create, setup, iso, or deep 3. CJ plays off that and when he gets the ball he isn't charged with setting up, its create n iso.

his role is definitely not "make the extra pass" it's score the ball. we need to start him slow, with some pick n rolls, some drive n dish etc

he is capable, i just dont think he's been mandated.

 

[TBpup]

CJ isnt getting the Blazers a Superstar SF though... KD, Kawhi, PG13, Lebron, none of the guys capable of finals MVP the Blazers could get if they gave up Dame and every draft pick they can give up.

For CJ they’d get like a mediocre SF...?

Are we much better than 'mediocre' at SG?

Scoring - very good
Efficiency - terrible because he doesn't get to the FT line
Passing - please...
Defense - average at best and at times, downright porous, especially for the amount of cap space he takes up
Makes teammates better - almost zero

So overall, is that much more than a mediocre description?

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

Are we much better than 'mediocre' at SG?

Scoring - very good
Efficiency - terrible because he doesn't get to the FT line
Passing - please...
Defense - average at best and at times, downright porous, especially for the amount of cap space he takes up
Makes teammates better - almost zero

So overall, is that much more than a mediocre description?

No maybe not but the other option we have right now is bad, like 2-3 tiers below mediocre.

 

[Terry Stotts]

Are we much better than 'mediocre' at SG?

Scoring - very good
Efficiency - terrible because he doesn't get to the FT line
Passing - please...
Defense - average at best and at times, downright porous, especially for the amount of cap space he takes up
Makes teammates better - almost zero

So overall, is that much more than a mediocre description?

Overstate things much? He could be better in certain areas for sure. But hes not this "mediocre" player you say he is. The number of FTA per game is pretty negligible between 12-24. His APG is the high end of average. And his FG% is #10.
And whatever RPM and WINS are they say CJ is a pretty good SG.

THE PROBLEM ISN'T CJ. I AM THE PROBLEM.

 

[Shaboid]

THE PROBLEM ISN'T CJ. I AM THE PROBLEM.

Now there is something we can agree on.

 

[TBpup]

Nice stats....and in the vast majority of them, CJ is hanging around the company of players he is making 2-8x as much money as. And maybe I missed it, but didn't see much related to efficiency. +/- is good....but what will that look like after last night's -31 performance against a KAT-less Wolves team? Ugh!

 

[joeBlazers]

Can we just get Moe/Chief back? Benzemore is just ... wow

 

[Neil O. Shyster]

Can we just get Moe/Chief back? Benzemore is just ... wow

If Dame/CJ pairing, with the money Neil committed to them over the next 4 years, need a specific roster with perfect health just to get to EVEN A RESPECTABLE record, than Neil needs to reconsider that pairing and look to trade CJ and use his resources more efficiently.

 

[wizenheimer]

CJ isnt getting the Blazers a Superstar SF though... KD, Kawhi, PG13, Lebron, none of the guys capable of finals MVP the Blazers could get if they gave up Dame and every draft pick they can give up.

For CJ they’d get like a mediocre SF...?

PG13 was available, and Portland was bidding, reportedly offering all three of those 1st round draft picks. BUT, the same reports noted that Olshey was holding CJ untouchable in those trade talks meaning he had to be offering something like Harkless, Meyers, and the 15th, 20th, & 26th picks in the same draft. Or maybe he was holding one of those picks and adding a future pick. Olshey even said something along the lines of "why would I trade CJ for PG13; I want CJ to play with PG13"

that's how loopy Olshey is about CJ. Now, it's entirely possible that Indiana would have still wanted Oladipo and Sabonis over CJ and three draft picks. It's worth noting though that at the time of the trade, Oladipo was coming off his worst year as a pro while CJ was coming off his best. And we don't know if the same Olshey-loves-CJ bullshit was going on when Jimmy Butler and Kawhi were available. Maybe, maybe not

all that aside, your seeming insistence that Portland has to trade CJ for a player just as good, or better, makes little sense to me. Most trades don't work that way, and very few trades don't involve risk...except for the ones Olshey likes when he's dumpster shopping, obviously. Portland has driven the car into a dead end with the Dame/CJ backcourt; they need to back out but CJ, and his contract, are blocking the rear-view mirror. Remove that obstacle, back up to the main street, and pick another route. Like I said earlier, sometimes you just have to take a couple of steps back to find a better way forward

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

PG13 was available, and Portland was bidding, reportedly offering all three of those 1st round draft picks. BUT, the same reports noted that Olshey was holding CJ untouchable in those trade talks meaning he had to be offering something like Harkless, Meyers, and the 15th, 20th, & 26th picks in the same draft. Or maybe he was holding one of those picks and adding a future pick. Olshey even said something along the lines of "why would I trade CJ for PG13; I want CJ to play with PG13"

that's how loopy Olshey is about CJ. Now, it's entirely possible that Indiana would have still wanted Oladipo and Sabonis over CJ and three draft picks. It's worth noting though that at the time of the trade, Oladipo was coming off his worst year as a pro while CJ was coming off his best. And we don't know if the same Olshey-loves-CJ bullshit was going on when Jimmy Butler and Kawhi were available. Maybe, maybe not

all that aside, your seeming insistence that Portland has to trade CJ for a player just as good, or better, makes little sense to me. Most trades don't work that way, and very few trades don't involve risk...except for the ones Olshey likes when he's dumpster shopping, obviously. Portland has driven the car into a dead end with the Dame/CJ backcourt; they need to back out but CJ, and his contract, are blocking the rear-view mirror. Remove that obstacle, back up to the main street, and pick another route. Like I said earlier, sometimes you just have to take a couple of steps back to find a better way forward

How am I insisting they have to trade a player for someone just as good? What's interesting about Butler, Kawhi and PG13 none of them are now with the teams that traded for them and it only worked out for Toronto / Kawhi.

I get what you're saying get pieces that fit better together, I am just saying I have no confidence that they have another SG ready to play, and they may find that fixing one problem just creates another.

I also just don't think anyone is giving the Blazers what they (or you and I would) want for CJ especially with the crazy contract he has, they'll have to take on another team's bad contract they want to get rid of and get a mid-tier SF. Does that make them better? I mean maybe, who knows. They also have to move a 20-year-old who doesn't at all appear ready into the starting SG spot.

 

[Hoopguru]

PG13 was available, and Portland was bidding, reportedly offering all three of those 1st round draft picks. BUT, the same reports noted that Olshey was holding CJ untouchable in those trade talks meaning he had to be offering something like Harkless, Meyers, and the 15th, 20th, & 26th picks in the same draft. Or maybe he was holding one of those picks and adding a future pick. Olshey even said something along the lines of "why would I trade CJ for PG13; I want CJ to play with PG13"

that's how loopy Olshey is about CJ. Now, it's entirely possible that Indiana would have still wanted Oladipo and Sabonis over CJ and three draft picks. It's worth noting though that at the time of the trade, Oladipo was coming off his worst year as a pro while CJ was coming off his best. And we don't know if the same Olshey-loves-CJ bullshit was going on when Jimmy Butler and Kawhi were available. Maybe, maybe not

all that aside, your seeming insistence that Portland has to trade CJ for a player just as good, or better, makes little sense to me. Most trades don't work that way, and very few trades don't involve risk...except for the ones Olshey likes when he's dumpster shopping, obviously. Portland has driven the car into a dead end with the Dame/CJ backcourt; they need to back out but CJ, and his contract, are blocking the rear-view mirror. Remove that obstacle, back up to the main street, and pick another route. Like I said earlier, sometimes you just have to take a couple of steps back to find a better way forward

It would be very interesting to know what kind of offers, discussions, have taken place and around what players. Are there many involving Dame? Im not advocating trading him but it would cool to know what type of player(s) would teams offer. Most everyone agrees that anyone other than Dame is tradable for the right scenario that better balances the roster, problem is maybe not a lot of player equity unless picks are included? Can you offer what player could be attainable for Dame? Just curious....

 

[wizenheimer]

How am I insisting they have to trade a player for someone just as good? What's interesting about Butler, Kawhi and PG13 none of them are now with the teams that traded for them and it only worked out for Toronto / Kawhi..

"insisting" was the wrong choice of word...sorry about that

Yeah Kawhi won Toronto a championship, and that made it worth it all for the Raptors. The other side of that is I have a hard time thinking of a less "Popovich" type of guard than CJ, so the Spurs probably wouldn't have been interested. But who knows CJ + Zach for Kawhi vs Derozan + Poeltl?

Butler is a pain in the ass who would have probably been an even bigger pain in Portland. At the same time, I don't underestimate the power of Dame

as for PG13, the Blazers wouldn't have had to have traded him last summer, but even if they did, I think Portland would be in a much better place with Gallinari, Gildeous-Alexander, and 3 extra 1sts plus the option to switch 2 more firsts, than what they have right now. Having Dame, Gilgous-Alexander, Simons, & Trent as a guard rotation with Gallo & Melo would be pretty good, now and into the future

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

"insisting" was the wrong choice of word...sorry about that

Yeah Kawhi won Toronto a championship, and that made it worth it all for the Raptors. The other side of that is I have a hard time thinking of a less "Popovich" type of guard than CJ, so the Spurs probably wouldn't have been interested. But who knows CJ + Zach for Kawhi vs Derozan + Poeltl?

Butler is a pain in the ass who would have probably been an even bigger pain in Portland. At the same time, I don't underestimate the power of Dame

as for PG13, the Blazers wouldn't have had to have traded him last summer, but even if they did, I think Portland would be in a much better place with Gallinari, Gildeous-Alexander, and 3 extra 1sts plus the option to switch 2 more firsts, than what they have right now. Having Dame, Gilgous-Alexander, Simons, & Trent as a guard rotation with Gallo & Melo would be pretty good, not and into the future

It's all interesting, and I absolutely wouldn't mind (and have felt this way for a couple of years), if they broke up the guards for a bigger 2g or SF, I just think it's also crazy how little depth they have right now. They better hope Zach and Simons are what they think...
If the type of deal was out there where they could get 2-3 players for CJ who could all be borderline starters/role players that fit into roles they needed that would be great, even if say they had to give up a 1st in that. I'm not sure what's out there I'd have to go look into it.

I think the contract CJ has is a big detriment to getting a lot of positive assets in a trade, but maybe I'm wrong. Just seems like a high usage and statistically mostly inefficient guard is not going to fetch much, but maybe there is a team out there who wants to move on from some guys or thinks CJ is the final piece to their puzzle.

 

[Neil O. Shyster]

Seriously, Neil gave near max money to CJ, who is probably the biggest ball hog in the NBA, and doesn’t play defense.... why does Neil still have a job?!

 

[beast blazer]

We should try to get savings from Indiana.

 

[Lanny]

What more do we need to see before realizing the Dame/CJ pairing will never work. There is just no ball movement when your 2 highest paid players play ISO ball. DEAD LAST in the entire NBA in assist 2 of last 3 years... bottom 10 every other year Dame/CJ has started together. Then you add in the defensive deficiencies of an 6’ 3 and under backcourt. There are better ways to use the salary cap resources then $30+ mil per year to CJ over the next 4 years. Dame will be 30 next season... if we don’t try something new now, we will waste Dame’s time in Portland... very sad.

It's going to take something significantly more than a crowbar to separate CJ from Lillard.

 

[TBpup]

It's going to take something significantly more than a crowbar to separate CJ from Lillard.

And while I admire the loyalty, 'blind' loyalty can be what results in a downfall in many careers, relationships, etc.

 

[Phatguysrule]

"insisting" was the wrong choice of word...sorry about that

Yeah Kawhi won Toronto a championship, and that made it worth it all for the Raptors. The other side of that is I have a hard time thinking of a less "Popovich" type of guard than CJ, so the Spurs probably wouldn't have been interested. But who knows CJ + Zach for Kawhi vs Derozan + Poeltl?

Butler is a pain in the ass who would have probably been an even bigger pain in Portland. At the same time, I don't underestimate the power of Dame

as for PG13, the Blazers wouldn't have had to have traded him last summer, but even if they did, I think Portland would be in a much better place with Gallinari, Gildeous-Alexander, and 3 extra 1sts plus the option to switch 2 more firsts, than what they have right now. Having Dame, Gilgous-Alexander, Simons, & Trent as a guard rotation with Gallo & Melo would be pretty good, now and into the future

San Antonio wasn't going to trade Kawhi to a Western Conference Team. That was well known.

 

[wizenheimer]

San Antonio wasn't going to trade Kawhi to a Western Conference Team. That was well known.

is Kawhi still in the east this year?

the Spurs knew they couldn't control what conference Kawhi played in for more than a year. I don't believe they would have turned down a great trade just because it came from a WC team.

 

[Natebishop3]

San Antonio wasn't going to trade Kawhi to a Western Conference Team. That was well known.

And yet here we are with Kawhi back in the west. It was a stupid move by them and it hurt them in the long run because now they are aging AND they suck.

 

[Phatguysrule]

And yet here we are with Kawhi back in the west. It was a stupid move by them and it hurt them in the long run because now they are aging AND they suck.

I didn't say it was smart. I said it was well known that was their plan, and it's what happened. We didn't have a shot.

 

[TBpup]

Heard rumblings about CJ if the Blazers didn't make the Playoffs this year. From a solid source.
Also mentioned a trade (likely 3 teams involved) that has Whiteside and Bazemore headed out.

It was an interesting discussion.

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

Heard rumblings about CJ if the Blazers didn't make the Playoffs this year. From a solid source.
Also mentioned a trade (likely 3 teams involved) that has Whiteside and Bazemore headed out.

It was an interesting discussion.

We want to know more!

 

[UKRAINEFAN]

We want to know more!

For example would that three team trade benefit the Blazers significantly and is it feasible?

 

[calvin natt]

Ideally, they should've traded CJ last summer after resigning Hood.

A Hood/Dame backcourt is nice... but obviously Hoods achilles blew up

Yeah this place would be a real joy if they traded CJ and kept Hood and then Hood tears an Achilles.

 

[calvin natt]

Reading this you might think CJ is the only player in the NBA with a less than desirable contract. Anyone seen Gordon Hayward’s?

 

[Neil O. Shyster]

Heard rumblings about CJ if the Blazers didn't make the Playoffs this year. From a solid source.
Also mentioned a trade (likely 3 teams involved) that has Whiteside and Bazemore headed out.

It was an interesting discussion.

For who?? Wiggins? Drummond? Otto Porter?

 

[TBpup]

For example would that three team trade benefit the Blazers significantly and is it feasible?

I took some of the names that were discussed and it works on the NBA Trade Machine. Not that that means anything but at least it is feasibly possible which many times is not the case.. Portland would get a young talent out of the names discussed along with an ending contract/contract with a player option that would probably not be exercised. Will try to get ahold of him later to see if he is okay with the specifics being shared.

 

[wizenheimer]

I took some of the names that were discussed and it works on the NBA Trade Machine. Not that that means anything but at least it is feasibly possible which many times is not the case.. Portland would get a young talent out of the names discussed along with an ending contract/contract with a player option that would probably not be exercised. Will try to get ahold of him later to see if he is okay with the specifics being shared.

to me, that seems credible. Too many of these trade ideas don't seem believable to me because I just can't see Portland converting the 46 million of the expiring contracts of Whiteside/Bazemore into 30-50 million in salaries next year. I'd think it is very likely a main Blazer goal to NOT be a tax-payer next season, and trading for a Love or a Griffin or a Porter blows that goal out of the water

if you assume that Hood and Hezonja are going to pick up their options, the Blazers would be around 97M in salary for 9 players. If you assume that Portland re-signs Skal, and he's certainly worth re-signing (unless his injury is more serious), then Portland could be around 102M or so with 10 players. If Whiteside + Bazemore bring back a youngish player on a 7-13M salary next year, along with other expiring contracts, and Portland has to add their 1st to get there, then the Blazers would probably be around the cap with 10 players; maybe a bit below if the cap hits the projection of 116M. That means Portland could have some remaining cap-space, and the room-MLE to add a couple more players, then vet minimum contracts to fill out the roster. They'd also have the BAE to use because the threat of being hard-capped wouldn't be so dire when they would be below the tax-line

and all of that fits with what we know of Olshey's view of Portland. He seems to be unwavering in his Dame/CJ love. He believes in Zach and Simons. He seems to believe in Nurkic. If he still had those 5 as a "core", he might still have confidence they'd be a great team...if healthy

but there are monkey-wrenches. Hood may never be close to being the same player he was; Matthews never made it back to his former level. The Blazers would still be weak at SF and that's the wrong position to be weak in the NBA. I don't see any improvement in defense or rebounding with that team, and those are two of the current team's biggest problems and the reason they are losing so many games.

the biggest monkey wrench may be the draft pick. To get any positive value out of Whiteside/Bazemore the Blazers would probably have to include their pick. But if they are trading Whiteside and Nurkic is having trouble getting back into rhythm, Portland could easily be a lottery team. So at the least, Portland would 'need' to lottery protect that pick. But if Portland not making the playoff triggers the Blazer front office to start CJ trade discussions...then tank baby tank