Trade Idea(just an idea....)

[Henacy]

This trade idea is only if the Nets are serious about trading Kittles for Draft picks. And are still left with a whole in our frontline at the end of the summer. And the Rockets are still with holes in their backcourt at the end of the summer.

Rockets Trade & Nets Recieve: Juwan Howard & Adrain Griffen

Rockets recieve & Nets Trade: Aaron Williams, Adrain Griffen, 2nd round pick


1st lets start with the rockets:

They get Aaron Williams he solves a big frontline problem they have right now, which is no legit backup for Yao Ming. With Kelvin Cato gone they have nobody to play the 5 when Ming is on the bench. And this could cost them because Ming doesnt have good stamina and ends up on the bench alot for young periods of time. With Aaron Williams the get somebody who can play Ming's spot when he is the bench. And also play alongside Ming when Mo Taylor is on the bench. And he is also a proven on ball defender in the post which the Rockets lost when Cato went to Orlando.

The Rockets also get Lucious Harris, who in certain situations can come off the bench at both backcourt postions. He also brings perimeter shooting for when Ming creates in the post & Mcgrady creates off the dribble. Which the Rockets lack outside of Eric P & Jim Jackson. But Harris is more versitle on the perimeter than Eric P. And he is better defensively then Eric, so he would probably be a better overall fit for the Rockets team system.

Overall Summary: The Rockets are expecting to make a run to go deep in the playoffs this season ,so they added to veteran guys who have been to the finals twice & deep in the playoffs in the past 3 seasons, to a team where their core parts dont have much playoffs expeirence going deep Mcgrady, Ming, even a veteran like JJ, who only expeirence going deep in the playoffs was with the Blazers ages ago.

Projected Rockets Roster

PG: Tyronn Lue/ Mark Jackson/ Lu Harris
SG: T-Mac/ Lu Harris/ Eric P
SF: Jim Jackson/Bostjan Nachbar/ Eric P
PF: Mo Taylor/ Aaron Williams/ C-Spoon
C: Ming/ Aaron Williams



Now to the Nets

We get Juwan Howard who is capable of averaging big # at a position the Nets desprately are going to need filled next season. He is reasonably priced for the next 3 or 4 years, so he doesnt hamper what the Nets do in the off season over the next couple of years. And still keeps helps to keep the Nets competive, which keeps the franchise player J.Kidd happy. And a competive team gives more motivation for RJ to want to stay. The biggest knock on Howard is that he has procuced on bad teams ever since that young Washington teram got broke up. As I tend to agree that you only prove yourself on good teams, It cant be denied that Howard has been pretty solid everywhere he has went. And would probably be motivated playing alongide Kidd & RJ with a legit shot to make noise in the playoffs in the east.

Adrian Griffen is coming off an injury filled season with the Rockets. But two season ago with the Mavs he was a notable lockdown defender on the perimeter. And he basically does nothing to our salary cap because he is making about the league minimum this season and comes of the books at the end of the year. But for this year he would be a solid backup at the wing positions as a defensive stopper on the perimeter.

Overall Summary- We fill our PF slot for the next couple of seasons which keeps kidd happy & gives RJ a reason to stay. But we dont kill our future cap space in the process. And we still have a legit shot at staying competive in the East.

Nets Projected Roster

PG: Jason Kidd/ Zoran Planinic
SG: Ron Mercer/ A-Griff
SF: RJ/ A-Griff/ Brain Scalabrine
PF Juwan Howard/ Eddie Griffen
C: Jason Collins/Kyle Davis/Nenad Kristic

The Nets were already planing on bringing in Eddie Griffen & Ron Mercer on cheap 1 year deals, so nothing has changed as far as that goes. The Nets would probably have to add another cheap player or two to fill out the active 12 man roster. Probably a cheap pg to add to the depth at the postion to give kidd some relief. Or maybe a shooter but I dont really think there is one out there for extremely cheap.

I know making Mercer a starter is risky but the guy is a proven scorer, his attuide & work ethic has been his major setback in his career. Hopefully sitting out after getting release by the spurs, he allowed him to understand that playing in the NBA is not a given right and you have to be motivated & hardworking to stay in this league. I think a motivated Mercer could be a still signing under the cheap circumstances. But I understand its a risk because guys like JR Rider never understood how hard it is to stay in this league, so its not a given that Mercer would have learned either. But Rj can also play a little 2-guard which adds scoring to the postion.

My real worry comes at the Center spot(nothing new), I dont see us getting much production from that postion especially offensively. But hopefully, Howard & E-Griff put up good offense stats on the frontline which would be good enuff to make up for lack of scoring at center. Iam hoping the Nets can find away to get solid rebounding and good post defense out the Center trio. And from what Iam hearing Kyle Davis is dencent at both.

So What do you guys think from both sides Rockets & Nets Fans perspective?

Please remember this is more of a last option for both teams seeing as the deal wont be able to be done until September, which means all both teams other options would probably be dead.

 

[Next Level Game]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Rockets Trade & Nets Recieve: Juwan Howard & Adrain Griffen

Rockets recieve & Nets Trade: Aaron Williams, Adrain Griffen, 2nd round pick</div>

Used his name twice and still spelled it wrong both times, Adrian Griffin.

But back to the trade...I don't like it. Well first, Juwan Howard can't be traded for awhile because he's just been recieved by Orlando. If we were to get him it cannot involve other players. Putting that the aside, I'd still don't like it. Howard's aging, doesn't really play much defense and will damage our cap space. I rather play this season out without a bigman and have tons of cap space to play in the free-agent market next year (and possibly lure Pau Gasol, Eddy Curry, or Tyson Chandler) than to take on Howard's contract. Griffin is a solid defender but he's not enough.

Also Kittles is missing in your line up..He should be starting at 2 gaurd, unless you had another trade for him.

 

[Henacy]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Used his name twice and still spelled it wrong both times, Adrian Griffin.

But back to the trade...I don't like it. Well first, Juwan Howard can't be traded for awhile because he's just been recieved by Orlando. If we were to get him it cannot involve other players. Putting that the aside, I'd still don't like it. Howard's aging, doesn't really play much defense and will damage our cap space. I rather play this season out without a bigman and have tons of cap space to play in the free-agent market next year (and possibly lure Pau Gasol, Eddy Curry, or Tyson Chandler) than to take on Howard's contract. Griffin is a solid defender but he's not enough.

Also Kittles is missing in your line up..He should be starting at 2 gaurd, unless you had another trade for him.</div>

1) Thanks for point out I spelled Adrian Griffen's name wrong very helpful.

2) But maybe you should have took that time to read the fact that I clearly said this trade could not happen until September. That is when Howard is able to be traded.

3) If K-Mart got max & Boozer got all the money this offseason. Gasol will be sure to turn around and ask for max next year. Why would Bruce Ratner turn around and pay Gasol a max contract, when he turned down Martin this year? And as for Tyson Chandler & Eddie Curry, Iam pretty sure they wont be asking for max contracts. But they will be sure to be asking for sizeable amount long term contracts that would last about 6 or 7 years. Why invest long term in guys that have been nothing but disappointments on the NBA level?

3) Kittles is not in the starting lineup because at the being of the topic I said this happens only if Kittles is traded for draft picks & we dont get any decent frontline players in return for him now.

4) If you look at the average drop off age for all-star caliber bigmen its around the age of 34, Howard's contract should be over then. We would still be able to make moves around Howard. He makes about 5 1/2-7 million for the rest of his contract, that doesnt exactly kill our cap space with the freedom we are expected to have in the upcoming seasons.

5) Eddie Griffen & Ron Mercer are only getting 1 year deal regardless of anything else, so if they dont work out they wont be back.

Iam fully prepared to ride out a horrible era, I have done it plenty in the past . But is Kidd, I mean the rebuilding process for the Nets, if they dont make any moves now, will take longer then a season lets not kid our selves. Bruce Ratner isnt going to want to spend the big time money until he moves into his new building in New York when it becomes profitable to him. So we may have a large amount of cap space but he isnt going to use it until he sees fit. So why would Jason Kidd want to stay for 3 or 4 years until we move in our new building to become competive once again. He knows the Nets are noit trying to get better by trade because they are trading all their bait for draft picks. And draft picks even 1st rounders nowadays take at least 2 to 3 years to develope into players who can make an impact. So Kidd is going to clearly want out. Which means RJ is going to clearly express his want to walk at the end of the season. Which makes no sense to invest long term money in a guy that doesnt want to be here.

 

[DragonKid]

Henacy, what is your opinion of Kyle Davis which is helping Nets in the center ?Will he strenthen Nets' Frontline ?

Nets always need a good center.

 

[Henacy]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting DragonKid:</div><div class="quote_post">Henacy, what is your opinion of Kyle Davis which is helping Nets in the center ?Will he strenthen Nets' Frontline ?

Nets always need a good center.</div>

Honestly I dont know that much about him, I havent really followed Aurburn basketball the past few seasons and thats where he is from. But from what the summer league scouts are saying he is really tough on the backboards. But offensively he is a project. But if we get some toughness on the backboards then he definately will help because we dont get that with Collins.

 

[DragonKid]

then will collins not be the starter next season ? Because we have Davis and Krstic, I don't think Collins is good enough, although he has much experience...and do you know the statistic of Krstic. I don't believe that he only 2.x rebounds per game ><

 

[Henacy]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting DragonKid:</div><div class="quote_post">then will collins not be the starter next season ? Because we have Davis and Krstic, I don't think Collins is good enough, although he has much experience...and do you know the statistic of Krstic. I don't believe that he only 2.x rebounds per game ><</div>

I think that Collins will start next season because his ablity to pass fits well in the motion offense the Nets run. But that doesnt mean that he has to be our most productive Center on the boards etc because Aaron Williams in my opinion has been our most productive Center during our playoffs run these past 3 seasons.

Kristic is also considered a major project but they do say he has some offensive skills but that 2.8 rebs per game is not a good sign But nobody has seen him in the states vs the very best competion so he is a major question mark.

 

[P.A.P.]

Nice Trade Idea's, It would benefit both teams. Though Juwan Howard cannot be traded until December 15th or so, so that deal would have to be delayed. If Kittles is traded, he'll have to be traded to a team under the cap in need of a SG, because teams wont acquire him to pay him 9.5 Million dollars let him help a little and leave. The only teams under the cap I would see giving up their picks for him are the Nuggets. Unless they sign Miles to a nice big contract, Kittles would be a nice fit there...for this season.

 

[Henacy]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Banks:</div><div class="quote_post">Nice Trade Idea's, It would benefit both teams. Though Juwan Howard cannot be traded until December 15th or so, so that deal would have to be delayed. If Kittles is traded, he'll have to be traded to a team under the cap in need of a SG, because teams wont acquire him to pay him 9.5 Million dollars let him help a little and leave. The only teams under the cap I would see giving up their picks for him are the Nuggets. Unless they sign Miles to a nice big contract, Kittles would be a nice fit there...for this season.</div>

I just ran the trade thru realgm.com and it said that Juwan Howard's trade restriction is lifted on September 1st. And that what I was thinking it was when, I was thinking of this trade. But it could be wrong.

I think the Clippers are offering draft pick for kittles, if the Wilcox trade doesnt go thru with the Nets. But I dont know how they have picks to give away because it seems like they are always giving away picks.

 

[P.A.P.]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">I just ran the trade thru realgm.com and it said that Juwan Howard's trade restriction is lifted on September 1st. And that what I was thinking it was when, I was thinking of this trade. But it could be wrong.

I think the Clippers are offering draft pick for kittles, if the Wilcox trade doesnt go thru with the Nets. But I dont know how they have picks to give away because it seems like they are always giving away picks.</div>

Well they acquired two 2nd rounders from the Bobcats in the Ely/House bust.

 

[Next Level Game]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">1) Thanks for point out I spelled Adrian Griffen's name wrong very helpful.
</div>

Still spelled it wrong. Griffin.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">2) But maybe you should have took that time to read the fact that I clearly said this trade could not happen until September. That is when Howard is able to be traded.</div>

Dually noted.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why would Bruce Ratner turn around and pay Gasol a max contract, when he turned down Martin this year? </div>

I don't think Ratner was the only one who didn't want to pay Martin max money. Repeatedly, Rod (not Rob) Thorn has said that Martin is not worth max money. He was on with Maddog and said he wasn't worth it. So Ratner not shelling out the money isn't all to blame for not giving Martin the max money. And I can't really argue with them cause Martin isn't a max money player. Gasol on the other hand, might be. He's younger, already a better offensive player and his taller than Martin. He might be better in the east.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And as for Tyson Chandler & Eddie Curry, Iam pretty sure they wont be asking for max contracts. But they will be sure to be asking for sizeable amount long term contracts that would last about 6 or 7 years. Why invest long term in guys that have been nothing but disappointments on the NBA level?
</div>

I agree with you about Eddy Curry. However, Eddy just needs the right mentor and the Bulls are too young and inexpierenced to train Eddy. The only veteran player worth listening to is Scottie Pippen and Scottie's been trying to tutor Eddy and he's changing a bit. I'm sure with Kidd (who's been proven to be a very good mentor) will elevate his game.

I don't agree with you about Tyson though. I've watched many Bulls games and read his post game comments and I really believe Tyson is a very hard worker. He was averaging like 14 and 13 with 2 blocks before he injured his back. He has a lot lacking offensively but he's a defensive beast. He plays hard every game and has as much, possibly more, intensity than Kenyon Martin. And with Kidd to help him with his offensive game, he can only get better.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">3) Kittles is not in the starting lineup because at the being of the topic I said this happens only if Kittles is traded for draft picks & we dont get any decent frontline players in return for him now.
</div>

I see, that part wasn't clear to me.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">4) If you look at the average drop off age for all-star caliber bigmen its around the age of 34, Howard's contract should be over then. We would still be able to make moves around Howard. He makes about 5 1/2-7 million for the rest of his contract, that doesnt exactly kill our cap space with the freedom we are expected to have in the upcoming seasons.</div>

True, but 5-7 million is a lot; it's like 1/5 to 1/6 of our cap space. If we're planning to resign RJ to a max contract or something high, it can add up to like 5 million in payroll and Kidd already is getting like 12 million a year. And Howard won't really convince Kidd and RJ to stay. He's a solid role player but we'll still be a second round and out team. I don't want to be half assed. Either Championship caliber or try to retool (not rebuild). Howard is a 3rd option type of player and with Kidd's lacking of offense, he'll be 2nd option, which hasn't proved to be so useful. And Howard's track record isn't that great. Last two seasons he's been on the two losingest teams. He might change this year because he'll be a 3rd option behind Yao and T-Mac, which he should be.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">5) Eddie Griffen & Ron Mercer are only getting 1 year deal regardless of anything else, so if they dont work out they wont be back.</div>

I never mentioned Griffin or Mercer so I don't understand what you were aiming here.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Iam fully prepared to ride out a horrible era, I have done it plenty in the past . But is Kidd, I mean the rebuilding process for the Nets, if they dont make any moves now, will take longer then a season lets not kid our selves. Bruce Ratner isnt going to want to spend the big time money until he moves into his new building in New York when it becomes profitable to him. So we may have a large amount of cap space but he isnt going to use it until he sees fit. So why would Jason Kidd want to stay for 3 or 4 years until we move in our new building to become competive once again. He knows the Nets are noit trying to get better by trade because they are trading all their bait for draft picks. And draft picks even 1st rounders nowadays take at least 2 to 3 years to develope into players who can make an impact. So Kidd is going to clearly want out. Which means RJ is going to clearly express his want to walk at the end of the season. Which makes no sense to invest long term money in a guy that doesnt want to be here.
</div>

Whoa whoa whoa, Murphy's law, ay? Draft picks aren't that bad, look at how Denver is piecing their franchise. Nene. Carmelo. Skita (who's averaging 25 ppg in the summer leagues). I'm reminded when the Dallas Cowboys traded Herschel Walker for a bunch of draft picks and the Cowboys went on to win title after title. I'm not saying that'll happen for us, but it's possible.

 

[P.A.P.]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nextlevelgame:</div><div class="quote_post">
Whoa whoa whoa, Murphy's law, ay? Draft picks aren't that bad, look at how Denver is piecing their franchise. Nene. Carmelo. Skita (who's averaging 25 ppg in the summer leagues). I'm reminded when the Dallas Cowboys traded Herschel Walker for a bunch of draft picks and the Cowboys went on to win title after title. I'm not saying that'll happen for us, but it's possible.</div>

Summer league doesn't mean anything. Loren Woods once scored 30 Points in a game and look where he is now. Lonny Baxter was also once dominant in summer league...

 

[Next Level Game]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Summer league doesn't mean anything. Loren Woods once scored 30 Points in a game and look where he is now. Lonny Baxter was also once dominant in summer league...</div>

Agreed, but it's unneccessary to say they don't mean anything. They could be harbingers for future great players. Zach Randolph made his name through summer league play. Richard Jefferson showed flashes of stardom through summer league play. So it does have some value.

 

[Next Level Game]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting DragonKid:</div><div class="quote_post">Henacy, what is your opinion of Kyle Davis which is helping Nets in the center ?Will he strenthen Nets' Frontline ?</div>

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Davis shoots for NBA


By Austin Phillips
Sports Staff
June 02, 2004

Kyle Davis has gone up and down to block 360 shots for the Auburn University men?s basketball team. Also going up and down has been his life and playing career over the last four years.
Davis, 21, has spent his whole life preparing to play in the NBA, and now he has that chance.

After earning his geography degree and closing out his senior season for the Tigers, Davis now has his sights set on bigger and better things.

It?s tough to look for bigger things when you stand at 6-foot-10.

Growing up in Blakely, Ga., Davis learned the game of basketball from his greatest influence ? his mother.

?I started playing when I was about 4 or 5, when my mom used to take us up to the basketball court because she used to play,? Davis said.

Davis? mother played basketball in high school, but she never played competitively beyond that.

While at Early County High School, Davis was a dual-sport athlete, even setting a school record in the discus throw.

Davis? track skills were not limited to the discus. Davis also ran the 4 x 100 relay and was his school?s high jumper.

When Davis arrived at Auburn, he said he thought about running track, but not for long. ?They were too fast for me,? Davis said jokingly.

Davis had offers to attend several small schools and other large SEC schools like Florida and Georgia, but eventually decided Auburn was the right place for him.

?They recruited me highly and I saw it was a bunch of good guys,? Davis said. ?I visited campus, and it just took off from there.?

During his career at Auburn, Davis set many University and SEC records, but his greatest achievement is one he gets the honor of repeating every time he goes to the free-throw line.

On Feb. 7, 2003, Davis? mother, Cradell, died after a bout with cancer at the young age of 43.

During every game after February 7, when Davis is fouled and goes to the free-throw line, he points up.

?I do that to let her know that every point I make, every basket I score, it is for her,? Davis said.

Marco Killingsworth, a junior on the 2003-2004 basketball team, said he could not even fathom being able to live, much less play basketball, without his mother and has an infinite amount of respect for Davis.

?I look up to that man,? Killingsworth said. ?He?s a strong person, a strong player.?

Killingsworth said after he and Davis talked over the Christmas break, Davis seemed upbeat because he knew his mother would want him to continue on his path.

?He was more positive about it, knowing his mom was in a better place,? Killingsworth said.

Davis also said his mother was the reason he was able to do the things he did in 2002-2003.

?I just realized what she wanted me to do,? Davis said. ?I just kept going out there and knowing that she would want me to keep playing and not sit there and be sad.?

Troy Gaines, a junior on the 2003-2004 basketball team, said Davis? demeanor and attitude toward playing after his mother?s death, showed just how capable he is of accomplishing great things.

?By him (playing), it shows just the kind of character he has and the respect he has for the game,? Gaines said.

Eugene Harris, assistant athletic director who also coached and recruited many NBA players, like NBA great Dale Davis, said what inspired him the most about Davis was the quick speed at which he matured after his mother?s death.

?He had to take on so many responsibilities,? Harris said. ?He always thought about his younger brothers.?

Harris said Davis would constantly have to drive back and forth to Blakely to check on his brothers, one being in elementary school and the other in high school.

?That shows he has some extreme leadership qualities,? Harris said.

During the 2002-2003 season, Davis was able to compile 126 blocks, the fourth most in a season in SEC history.

Over his career, Davis blocked 360 shots, the second most in SEC history.

The only name sitting above Davis? in career blocked shots is a little known man named Shaquille O?Neal.

?He was and still is a great player,? Davis said of O?Neal. ?That is one guy I really admire and to have my name in the same sentence with is great.?

During the 2003-2004 season, Davis only managed 72 blocks, a career low.

The 2003-2004 season was also riddled with controversy and hardships.

This year, Auburn fired 10-year head coach Cliff Ellis, along with being investigated for rules violations.

?It came as a surprise to me because I know (Ellis) was a good coach and a good person,? Davis said.

During that time, though, Davis never lost sight of his goal of playing in the NBA.

?I kind of figured I wouldn?t play as much because we were trying to get ready for next year,? Davis said.

While he didn?t get the playing time he hoped for, Davis said he tried to make the most out of every opportunity he got.

?I just went out there and did whatever I could do when I was out there,? Davis said. ?I didn?t worry about not playing or having somebody playing in front of me because I just love the game so much that it really doesn?t matter when I play or how I play.?

Ellis said he feels Davis? skills under the basket make up for any lost time he had on the court.

?I think Kyle Davis handled his playing time well this year,? Ellis said. In his career, he has shown he is a great rebounder and a great shot blocker.?

As the June 24 NBA Draft approaches, Davis knows there are many things he needs to do in order to secure a place on an NBA squad.

Davis has been playing with a developmental team in Rome, Ga., the Rome Gladiators, and will work out with the Atlanta Hawks, the Phoenix Suns and the Milwaukee Bucks in the coming weeks.

During those workouts, Davis hopes to improve his offensive skills.

?I need to become a more offensive threat than I have been in the past,? Davis said. Harris agrees.

?He has to become a more offensive threat,? Harris said. ?In the NBA, you have to be able to get the rebound, block shots and get the garbage points.?

Killingsworth said if Davis will put on a little weight and learn a few more moves, he sees no reason why Davis will not be on a NBA squad next season.

While Davis? future prospects range from the NBA to the NDBL to leagues overseas, Harris knows the team that signs Davis will be a lucky team.

?He is going to be an asset to any team because he lives his life right,? Harris said. ?If (Davis) gets with the right team, the sky is the limit for him.?
</div>

LINK

 

[Henacy]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Still spelled it wrong. Griffin.</div>

Yeah, I need spell check, what can I say my bad. Adrian Griffin


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think Ratner was the only one who didn't want to pay Martin max money. Repeatedly, Rod (not Rob) Thorn has said that Martin is not worth max money. He was on with Maddog and said he wasn't worth it. So Ratner not shelling out the money isn't all to blame for not giving Martin the max money. And I can't really argue with them cause Martin isn't a max money player. Gasol on the other hand, might be. He's younger, already a better offensive player and his taller than Martin. He might be better in the east. </div>

Yeah I heard Rob Thorn on Mike & the Maddog a few times before & after the trade. And imo, he was pretty much a double edged knife the whole time with his comments. 1st, he would say that he willing to do anything to keep Martin. And then he would say in the next sentence he isnt sure if investing so much in one player is good for the future of the franchise. Saying signing Martin would hamper our movement in the future. But its pretty clear now the Nets thorn included had no real want to resign Martin because Martin's agent said that the Nets never even came with a offer.

But it doesnt seem like Thorn wont be around past this season. So maybe he knew his hands were tied from making any major decisions that effect the long term future of the Nets.


As for Gasol, yes he younger. But he is also a subpar defender especially compared to Martin, and lacks toughness. And besides scoring less then a point more last season, showed nothing else that warrants him being more of a leader or max player then Martin. A guy like Gasol getting Max in the NY/NJ tri state area would get ate alive by the fans & the media etc. For Gasol...

Subpar Defense + Lack of toughness + Max= Power Forward version of Allan Houston

Plus you add on to the fact that Bruce Ratner has no reason to spend big time money to bring free Agents to the Nets until they move to Brooklyn, when the Nets will really start to benefit him and his pockets. Bruce Ratner could care less about the NJ Nets to spend max money on a player, now. Especially since Gasol isnt even a player that would put people in the seats, which would at least benefit Ratner somewhat while we were still in NJ. All that adds up to the unlikely hood of adding a high price player thru free Agency in the Next 4 years. Well maybe in 2 years he might add a big name just because it will be so close to time to move into the new building if it is a approved. So Ratner will need a fresh face to tease people to generate new interest in the Nets, especially since kidd will be closer to retirement and RJ will be to much of a familiar face to genetrate a large amount of new viewers to the Nets. But until then I dont expect any high priced players to come here thru FA. The Nets will have to stay competive with Moderately priced players outside Kidd & RJ. And hopefully thru smart drafting.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't agree with you about Tyson though. I've watched many Bulls games and read his post game comments and I really believe Tyson is a very hard worker. He was averaging like 14 and 13 with 2 blocks before he injured his back. He has a lot lacking offensively but he's a defensive beast. He plays hard every game and has as much, possibly more, intensity than Kenyon Martin. And with Kidd to help him with his offensive game, he can only get better.</div>

There are very few players in this league more intense then K-Mart. And I dont think Chandler is one of them. I do have league pass but honestly the bulls havent been on my everyday radar, so I could be underestimating the Cats passion for the game. But comparing it to Martin still seems like a stretch to me.

But putting that aside, I still see know reason to invest long term, big time money in a guy with a career avg of 7.2ppg & 6.4rpg, has yet to play a full 82 games in a season. And has nothing close to big game experience.




<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">True, but 5-7 million is a lot; it's like 1/5 to 1/6 of our cap space. If we're planning to resign RJ to a max contract or something high, it can add up to like 5 million in payroll and Kidd already is getting like 12 million a year. And Howard won't really convince Kidd and RJ to stay. He's a solid role player but we'll still be a second round and out team. I don't want to be half assed. Either Championship caliber or try to retool (not rebuild). Howard is a 3rd option type of player and with Kidd's lacking of offense, he'll be 2nd option, which hasn't proved to be so useful. And Howard's track record isn't that great. Last two seasons he's been on the two losingest teams. He might change this year because he'll be a 3rd option behind Yao and T-Mac, which he should be.</div>

I agree to a certain degree, No Howard definately doesnt garuntee the Nets a slot in the finals. But it does garuntee the Nets a top 3 or 4 seeding with a legit shot at getting to the finals. With a core 3 of RJ, Kidd, Howard we will have a legit shot at beating the Piston's & Pacers, if those three are healthy. The Heat wouldnt be a good matchup for us because we would give up way to many inside points to shaq. But the other two toop teams I could definately see the Nets hanging with.

Can you honestly think of another some what moderately priced bigman in the Next 3 or 4 seasons that can help the Nets stay competive? they either all stink or they cost to much for Ratner to want to spend in NJ.

Also with Howard you have to take held of the Kidd factor imo. I say this because after he left Nash in Dallas, he has really been playing alonside some subpar point guards an injury filled Tim Hardaway in Denver was probably the best point guard he played with for a full season post Nash. I mean Shammond Williams started his last year in Denver. And Ty Lue was the Magic pg last year. A bigman is only as good as the other bigman playing alongside him and his floor general. And the floor leaders that Howard had to work with were subpar to say the least.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Whoa whoa whoa, Murphy's law, ay? Draft picks aren't that bad, look at how Denver is piecing their franchise. Nene. Carmelo. Skita (who's averaging 25 ppg in the summer leagues). I'm reminded when the Dallas Cowboys traded Herschel Walker for a bunch of draft picks and the Cowboys went on to win title after title. I'm not saying that'll happen for us, but it's possible.</div>

Yes loading up on draft picks in circumstances are nice but not when you best player is on the dark side of 30. And doesnt want to stick around to develope project players and not be competive.

As far as Denver goes yes they got a jewel in Carmelo. 1) with a high draft pick not mid-1st rounders 2) a guy like Melo is a rare expection in this draft age, how often is it that a guy comes in the NBA with a National championship on his resume and coming off a setting of taking over the biggest stage of college basketball in the NCaa tourney, pretty rare. After that Melo was clearly ready to preform. Same thing with Wade leading Marquette to the final four the same year. But those type of players are a rare exception in this day & age even at the top of the draft. You are more likey to get stuck with a Darko, Kwame Brown etc. guys who need at least 3 or 4 years to develope into even coming close to making a legit impact


Just look at the draft year before Melo & Wade, once you get past Ming in 2002 the rest of the lottery alone is filled with players who have yet to make a serious impact in this league Dunlevy, Gooden, Skita, Wagner, Wilcox, Melvin Ely, Haslip etc these guys were all lottery selections and 2 years later are all considered to still be major projects getting by on potenial more than skill. So loading up on picks nowadays gives reason for concern for Jason Kidd, Richard Jefferson and Nets fans as well.

Football drafts are different more rounds which leaves more room to possible pull out a steal later that someone missed. In basketball every pick is so crucial gm's are rarely going to let a potenial stud slip thru the cracks. Their maybe one maybe two per draft year but not a large #. So us stocking up on a bunch of mid-1st round and second round picks doesnt excite me all that much.

 

[Next Level Game]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">As for Gasol, yes he younger. But he is also a subpar defender especially compared to Martin, and lacks toughness. </div>

I don't really think so. Gasol lacks toughness but in a sense so did Kmart. Kmart has a tough guy image and is tougher than Gasol, but Kmart did fade a lot when we needed him the most. When there was a tougher frontcourt, Kmart backed out, but when I was watching the Spurs-Grizzlies series, I saw Gasol take a lot more into his hands. Unfortunately he went up against the best powerforward in the league. He still did pretty good 19 ppg on 57% shooting. I'd say he held his own.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">As for Gasol, yes he younger. But he is also a subpar defender especially compared to Martin, and lacks toughness. And besides scoring less then a point more last season, showed nothing else that warrants him being more of a leader or max player then Martin.</div>

I think it's unfair that you want Gasol to replace Martin fully when you don't do the same with Howard. If you're gonna talk about the deficiencies of Gasol to Kmart then you should do the same with Howard.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">A guy like Gasol getting Max in the NY/NJ tri state area would get ate alive by the fans & the media etc</div>

Why so? He's above average, he's good player and brings a lot to the game. He's led his team to the playoffs with a goodpoint gaurd. I don't think he would be. It was not too long ago that Knicks fans were chanting the Knicks to draft Maciej Lampe, another foreigner they nothing about.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Subpar Defense + Lack of toughness + Max= Power Forward version of Allan Houston
</div>

I don't think so. His defense is solid. It's not like Kmart's one on one, but he's a better weak side shot blocker than Kmart is. I think you're overlooking the fact that Allan Houston is being paid 100 million dollars and he can do only one thing well, shoot. He can't do anything else and that's why Knicks fans are fed up with him. Gasol can rebound (not as well as Kmart, but sufficiently), score (better post moves than Kmart has) and is a decent passer. He's 24 years old and he's been getting tougher each season. Hubie Brown has been saying that he's getting more confidence and toughness and when you watch him play for the Spanish team, he's been playing with plenty of toughness.

And why are you talking about toughness anyway? Juwan Howard is up there with lack of toughness. Sure he worked hard, but does he step it up every game? No. He gets his averages and that's about it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Plus you add on to the fact that Bruce Ratner has no reason to spend big time money to bring free Agents to the Nets until they move to Brooklyn, when the Nets will really start to benefit him and his pockets. Bruce Ratner could care less about the NJ Nets to spend max money on a player, </div>

How do you know this? There are reports of Nets giving RJ a max contract. Just because Kmart didn't get a max contract? Just cause the Nets didn't match Kmart's Nuggets offer? Do you realize that Kmart is getting 30 million alone this season? Most owners around the league wouldn't pay Kmart 30 million for one season. I think only Shaq and KG are getting that much per season. And Rod (not Rob) Thorn has said that Kmart isn't worth that much. Ratner hasn't spoken enough for you to see who's in charge. We assume it's Ratner because Rod is a good GM. We'll have to wait and see.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Especially since Gasol isnt even a player that would put people in the seats, </div>

And Juwan Howard will?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">All that adds up to the unlikely hood of adding a high price player thru free Agency in the Next 4 years</div>

Say we go by your theory that the Nets don't spend money. Then why the hell would they trade for Juwan? Garunteed money for four more years? I would assume that Ratner would rather have all the contracts come off than to pay a guy $30+ million.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I do have league pass but honestly the bulls havent been on my everyday radar, so I could be underestimating the Cats passion for the game.</div>

I concur. Tyson Chandler hurt is back by diving himself into the stands for loose a ball. The unselfishness of that act alone attests to his intensity.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But putting that aside, I still see know reason to invest long term, big time money in a guy with a career avg of 7.2ppg & 6.4rpg, has yet to play a full 82 games in a season.</div>

When is the last time Kmart played 82 games? Never. And as I said, before he got hurt he was a beast. He gets nearly 8 rebounds in 22 minutes. Given Kmart's minutes, that's 12 rebounds per game. He gets 1.23 bpg in 22 minutes. Thats nearly 2 blocks in Kmart's minutes. Unfortunately his offensive production would be 10 ppg, but I'm sure Kidd can get him easy dunks and layups to turn that into 15-16 ppg which would be adequately replace Kmart's offensive production. The only thing which would be a problem is his back, which slowed him down in the end of the season and people with back problems have a hard time playing a full season. Larry Johnson. T-Mac. But Kmart was also injury-prone with his ankles.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But it does garuntee the Nets a top 3 or 4 seeding with a legit shot at getting to the finals.</div>

We wouldn't get passed Miami, Detroit, and Indiana.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Can you honestly think of another some what moderately priced bigman in the Next 3 or 4 seasons that can help the Nets stay competive? they either all stink or they cost to much for Ratner to want to spend in NJ.
</div>

No, but I rather take my chances in trying to get Gasol/Chandler/Curry and having them develop with Kidd than to take on Howard. There is a reason why every team he's on wants to trade him.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Also with Howard you have to take held of the Kidd factor imo. I say this because after he left Nash in Dallas, he has really been playing alonside some subpar point guards an injury filled Tim Hardaway in Denver was probably the best point guard he played with for a full season post Nash. I mean Shammond Williams started his last year in Denver. And Ty Lue was the Magic pg last year. A bigman is only as good as the other bigman playing alongside him and his floor general. And the floor leaders that Howard had to work with were subpar to say the least. </div>

I like Howard. I like what he did with Denver, but face the facts, he's not that great. He's not a team outlook changer for a team that's falling. He is for a team like Minnesota, Miami, Lakers, teams that are already at the top. But for a team that fell to mediocrity, he's just gonna garuntee us a playoff spot (which could be already garunteed since no one in the Atlantic Division is better than us).

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes loading up on draft picks in circumstances are nice but not when you best player is on the dark side of 30. And doesnt want to stick around to develope project players and not be competive.</div>

I agree and if that's happening, I hope we trade Kidd to a contender.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> how often is it that a guy comes in the NBA with a National championship on his resume and coming off a setting of taking over the biggest stage of college basketball in the NCaa tourney, pretty rare.</div>

Well there was Emeka Okafor this year. Carmelo the year before. Jay Williams two years ago (He had a good rookie year; most point gaurds don't have great rookie years I realize that Maryland won the year he was drafted).

It happens.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Just look at the draft year before Melo & Wade, once you get past Ming in 2002 the rest of the lottery alone is filled with players who have yet to make a serious impact in this league Dunlevy, Gooden, Skita, Wagner, Wilcox, Melvin Ely, Haslip etc these guys were all lottery selections and 2 years later are all considered to still be major projects getting by on potenial more than skill.</div>

You over look players like Amare, Butler, and Boozer players that contributed immediately. Then you have players that can contribue that need minutes like Frank Williams, Jiri Welsch, and Melvin Ely. Or what about this past season aside from Melo, LeBron, and Wade you have Chris Bosh, Kirk Hinrich, Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels, TJ Ford, and Pietrus (at the end of the season). That's plenty of talent.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Football drafts are different more rounds which leaves more room to possible pull out a steal later that someone missed. In basketball every pick is so crucial gm's are rarely going to let a potenial stud slip thru the cracks. Their maybe one maybe two per draft year but not a large #. So us stocking up on a bunch of mid-1st round and second round picks doesnt excite me all that much.
</div>

Yes, I know how they work. I'm just saying that it has happened before, even if not basketball. So it's not inconcievable that we build a good franchise off of draft picks.

But if we are building again, I say we trade Kidd immediately. He deserves a ring.

 

[Henacy]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't really think so. Gasol lacks toughness but in a sense so did Kmart. Kmart has a tough guy image and is tougher than Gasol, but Kmart did fade a lot when we needed him the most. When there was a tougher frontcourt, Kmart backed out, but when I was watching the Spurs-Grizzlies series, I saw Gasol take a lot more into his hands. Unfortunately he went up against the best powerforward in the league. He still did pretty good 19 ppg on 57% shooting. I'd say he held his own. </div>

And Kenyon Martin held his own games 1-4 in the finals as well, it was games 5 & 6 after he got sick when he fell off. And Martin was facing the twin towers version of the spurs with 2 of the best defensive players in the league to contend with in Robinson & TD. And K-Mart didnt back down he actually forced things a little. Also you have to factor in the fact that the Grizzlies have a deeper frontline then the Nets, Wright, Swift, Outlaw all better than JC. How much did Gasol have to guard Duncan during that series? Never. K-Mart had to guard Duncan every trip down the floor basically. That is a bigger factor in differing the matchups.




<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I think it's unfair that you want Gasol to replace Martin fully when you don't do the same with Howard. If you're gonna talk about the deficiencies of Gasol to Kmart then you should do the same with Howard.</div>

If you think Iam comparing & expecting Gasol to fill in for Martin, what do you think the media & rest of Nets fans to do? If you turn down one man's max offer who has been a core player of your team for 4 years and then give another player max the very next offseason, its only logical people are going to compare. And the new player better be a garunteed upgrade in all comparisons, which Gasol is not.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why so? He's above average, he's good player and brings a lot to the game. He's led his team to the playoffs with a goodpoint gaurd. I don't think he would be. It was not too long ago that Knicks fans were chanting the Knicks to draft Maciej Lampe, another foreigner they nothing about</div>

Its different cheering for a guy to become a draft pick then it is cheering to give a guy a max contract here in the tri-state.

Gasol fits in nothing like the bigman that have been held in high prestige in the tri-state over the past decade or 2, Patrick Ewing, Charles Oakley, Kenyon Martin, guys who have a blue collar edge to their games. Thats why I know his style would not go over well here, it wont be respected. The NY/NJ fans & media could see giving a guy like Ben Wallace the max before giving a guy like Gasol.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think so. His defense is solid. It's not like Kmart's one on one, but he's a better weak side shot blocker than Kmart is. I think you're overlooking the fact that Allan Houston is being paid 100 million dollars and he can do only one thing well, shoot. He can't do anything else and that's why Knicks fans are fed up with him. Gasol can rebound (not as well as Kmart, but sufficiently), score (better post moves than Kmart has) and is a decent passer. He's 24 years old and he's been getting tougher each season. Hubie Brown has been saying that he's getting more confidence and toughness and when you watch him play for the Spanish team, he's been playing with plenty of toughness.</div>

A max contract for Gasol would cost 80+ million and he is basically an offense player like Allan. There is a major difference between being a leader on a team in Memphis, and being a leader on a team in the tri-state. And Gasol hasnt shown anything that leans toward him be ing able to handle those differences, which means no need to risk long term max on him.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And why are you talking about toughness anyway? Juwan Howard is up there with lack of toughness. Sure he worked hard, but does he step it up every game? No. He gets his averages and that's about it.</div>

Juwan Howard wouldnt be costing the Nets max money, thats why Gasol's charater is under a different microscope.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How do you know this? There are reports of Nets giving RJ a max contract. Just because Kmart didn't get a max contract? Just cause the Nets didn't match Kmart's Nuggets offer? Do you realize that Kmart is getting 30 million alone this season? Most owners around the league wouldn't pay Kmart 30 million for one season. I think only Shaq and KG are getting that much per season. And Rod (not Rob) Thorn has said that Kmart isn't worth that much. Ratner hasn't spoken enough for you to see who's in charge. We assume it's Ratner because Rod is a good GM. We'll have to wait and see.</div>

There is a difference between giving RJ who has been a main stay of this team for the past 3 seasons max. And giving max to an outsider. And me knowing Ratner wont want to spend the max on Gasol has absolutely nothing to do with not matching Martin. It has more to do with logical

Why would Ratner spend max next year on anyone but RJ benefit him? He wants as much cap space free as possible for when the Nets move into their new building as possible, having three players on the roster making between 10-13 million dollars a per doesnt do that. Especially when the non may stay is a guy like Gasol, who is not a player that brings alot of fan fare, which will not put people into seats at either arena in NY or NJ.



And Juwan Howard will?

Read a few posts up



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Say we go by your theory that the Nets don't spend money. Then why the hell would they trade for Juwan? Garunteed money for four more years? I would assume that Ratner would rather have all the contracts come off than to pay a guy $30+ million.</div>

Because he is a guy who will give the Nets 18 & 8, which will be enuff to keep kidd happy imo. Which keeps RJ happy. And it will only cost him 6 million not twice that as Gasol will cost.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">When is the last time Kmart played 82 games? Never. And as I said, before he got hurt he was a beast. He gets nearly 8 rebounds in 22 minutes. Given Kmart's minutes, that's 12 rebounds per game. He gets 1.23 bpg in 22 minutes. Thats nearly 2 blocks in Kmart's minutes. Unfortunately his offensive production would be 10 ppg, but I'm sure Kidd can get him easy dunks and layups to turn that into 15-16 ppg which would be adequately replace Kmart's offensive production. The only thing which would be a problem is his back, which slowed him down in the end of the season and people with back problems have a hard time playing a full season. Larry Johnson. T-Mac. But Kmart was also injury-prone with his ankles.</div>

That is not a very solid method you are using there. There is a reason why he doesnt play k-mart role or minutes, I'll let you figure that one out?

And K-Mart is proven that he can produce beat up. He was basically beat up this year in the playoffs didnt complain once.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">We wouldn't get passed Miami, Detroit, and Indiana.</div>

I said we wouldnt get pass Miami because we give away to much at the center spot. But a core three of Kidd, RJ, Howard we would have as good a shot as any against the Pistons and Pacers. We took the Pistons 7 with Kidd half-a** and RJ leading us. With there offseason moves that stilll dont have anyone who can guard RJ off the dribble, just like they didnt have one last year. Our Center spots would be much bigger, which would at least give us a shot on the boards against Ben Wallace. So I dont see why wouldnt give them a good shot. And the Pacers arent even as good as them.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No, but I rather take my chances in trying to get Gasol/Chandler/Curry and having them develop with Kidd than to take on Howard. There is a reason why every team he's on wants to trade him</div>

He signed with Orlando wasnt traded from Denver. He was traded from Dallas more or less because Howard Esley wasnt cutting as Steve Nash's backup and the Mavs had more depth at their forward spots then in their backcourt, so they had a chance to bring in a big time perimeter player in Van Exel who wasnt working out in Denver. And Washington traded because they made the wrong choice of investing & choicing Juwan Howard over Chris Webber, so they pretty much dumped Howard when he wasnt living up to the over dominate # Webber was putting up dring the same time in Sacro. It was kind of a save face move by them.

I never said the guy was ever a max type player, I just said that at the price he is costing now, he is a good player. He has proven he can put # on the board everywhere he has gone.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I like Howard. I like what he did with Denver, but face the facts, he's not that great. He's not a team outlook changer for a team that's falling. He is for a team like Minnesota, Miami, Lakers, teams that are already at the top. But for a team that fell to mediocrity, he's just gonna garuntee us a playoff spot (which could be already garunteed since no one in the Atlantic Division is better than us). </div>

I can understand you point but if the Nets have a legit PF, then they always have a legit shot with Kidd there. So we are pretty mkuch a power forward away from staying in the hunt





<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well there was Emeka Okafor this year. Carmelo the year before. Jay Williams two years ago (He had a good rookie year; most point gaurds don't have great rookie years I realize that Maryland won the year he was drafted).

It happens</div>

Emeka has the resume but his rookie season hasnt come yet so we dont know. And Jay Will had a solid rookie year but I wouldnt put him in the immediate difference maker column like Melo or Wade. But I like Jay Will and I heard he is recovering by playing in a summer league at the Jersey shore. I wonder when he plans on making his comback shot at the league because J. Kidd needs a backup & he should come cheap.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You over look players like Amare, Butler, and Boozer players that contributed immediately</div>.

I didnt over look Boozer or Butler, Butler had a let down year last saeason so the jury is still out on him. And Boozer ,despite getting all that big money from Utah, the jury has to still be out. I remember Marc Jackson doing something similar with the warriors a few years back then he got payed by the Wolves. And look at him now. But Boozer was a steal for a 2nd rounder

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Then you have players that can contribue that need minutes like Frank Williams, Jiri Welsch, and Melvin Ely. Or what about this past season aside from Melo, LeBron, and Wade you have Chris Bosh, Kirk Hinrich, Josh Howard, Marquis Daniels, TJ Ford, and Pietrus (at the end of the season). That's plenty of talent.</div>

Last seasons drat was pretty solid I will admit that but how often does a solid top to bottom draft come along.

 

[jbbNJNetz]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">
Its different cheering for a guy to become a draft pick then it is cheering to give a guy a max contract here in the tri-state.

Gasol fits in nothing like the bigman that have been held in high prestige in the tri-state over the past decade or 2, Patrick Ewing, Charles Oakley, Kenyon Martin, guys who have a blue collar edge to their games. Thats why I know his style would not go over well here, it wont be respected. The NY/NJ fans & media could see giving a guy like Ben Wallace the max before giving a guy like Gasol. </div>


Drazen Petrovic was well like with he his short career here but he was no PF or big man you were talking.

 

[Henacy]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NJNetz:</div><div class="quote_post">Drazen Petrovic was well like with he his short career here but he was no PF or big man you were talking.</div>


Petro definately had that NYC heart and work ethic. It think it came from him having to work a little harder to get noticed really in Portland playing behind Clyde that one season. I think going thru a little trials early in your basketball gives you a little more character. John Starks was similar after he came to the Knicks from Golden State around the same time because he went thru alot having to play in the CBA etc, people could relate to the effort it took for him to stay in the league. Even Spree in 99' was held in high regards by tri-state fans after he came here after the PJ Carlismo inccident. We like people who we can relate to as our sports hero's in the tri-state.

 

[Next Level Game]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And Kenyon Martin held his own games 1-4 in the finals as well, it was games 5 & 6 after he got sick when he fell off. And Martin was facing the twin towers version of the spurs with 2 of the best defensive players in the league to contend with in Robinson & TD. And K-Mart didnt back down he actually forced things a little. Also you have to factor in the fact that the Grizzlies have a deeper frontline then the Nets, Wright, Swift, Outlaw all better than JC. How much did Gasol have to guard Duncan during that series? Never. K-Mart had to guard Duncan every trip down the floor basically. That is a bigger factor in differing the matchups.
</div>

We got into this arguement already so I'm not going into it again. But let it known that Martin didn't do any better job that Gasol did. They both lost the series.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you think Iam comparing & expecting Gasol to fill in for Martin, what do you think the media & rest of Nets fans to do? If you turn down one man's max offer who has been a core player of your team for 4 years and then give another player max the very next offseason, its only logical people are going to compare. And the new player better be a garunteed upgrade in all comparisons, which Gasol is not.
</div>

I don't think Gasol is a downgrade for the Nets either. I think he'd faired well enough in the tri-state area. He's very popular in Spain and the media there is following his steps. So I'd think he's used to it and he hasn't shown any signs of drop off. He's steadily getting better and better. It's just the rotation by Hubie Brown makes Pau play less minutes. Coming to the Nets, with Jason Kidd and he'll be a star.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Its different cheering for a guy to become a draft pick then it is cheering to give a guy a max contract here in the tri-state.
</div>

Sprewell got a lot of cheer and he wasn't worth the contract he had.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Gasol fits in nothing like the bigman that have been held in high prestige in the tri-state over the past decade or 2, Patrick Ewing, Charles Oakley, Kenyon Martin, guys who have a blue collar edge to their games. Thats why I know his style would not go over well here, it wont be respected. </div>

If you think Howard will fit the prestige of teh bigmen in the tri-state area you're mistaken. But forget that, with Gasol we're a top team in the east and maybe going to the finals. Atleast Eastern Conference Finals and as long as we're winning the media and fans will be happy. That's how it always is. As long as you're winning, fans are happy. Kurt Thomas is a blue collar power foward but the fans are begging him to be traded. It's not the player, it's the wins the fans and media are worried about.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">A max contract for Gasol would cost 80+ million and he is basically an offense player like Allan.</div>

What? He does so much more than score. He scores 2 more points than Kmart, grabs 1 less rebound and blocks almost 1 more shot. And gets almost 1 more assist.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There is a difference between giving RJ who has been a main stay of this team for the past 3 seasons max. And giving max to an outsider.</div>

And what is the difference? Max money is max money, no?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And me knowing Ratner wont want to spend the max on Gasol has absolutely nothing to do with not matching Martin. </div>

So you know Ratner now huh? Do you know his wife and kids too?

Do you also know how big Martin's contract is for this season alone?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why would Ratner spend max next year on anyone but RJ benefit him? He wants as much cap space free as possible for when the Nets move into their new building as possible, having three players on the roster making between 10-13 million dollars a per doesnt do that</div>

Why wont it do that? Why not? Rockets moved to a new arena with Francis, Maurice Taylor, Cuttino Mobley, and Cato. They all together would equal three players making between 10 - 13 million.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Especially when the non may stay is a guy like Gasol, who is not a player that brings alot of fan fare, which will not put people into seats at either arena in NY or NJ.
</div>

Gasol has a whole country behind him. And I think if the Grizzlies were on TV more, they'd see how good of a player he is. He's one of a kind and fans like players who play with flair. And that's all Gasol. His handling is as good as any big man I've seen outside of KG and Dirk these days. He's always top, somtimes second to Shaq in dunks. He's got great foot work, probably the best that'd be in the area since Patrick and Derrick Coleman. He's very fun to watch and he's energetic and he's always cheering his teammates on. I don't see a reason to say he's not gonna make it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Because he is a guy who will give the Nets 18 & 8,</div>

Check the stats, Gasol already does that, plus much better defense.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">which will be enuff to keep kidd happy imo. </div>

Kidd wants players that can run with him. Juwan Howard isn't the player he used to be. He wont be able to run with Kidd. Gasol on the other hand is young and will be able to.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Which keeps RJ happy</div>

RJ is a winner. He just wants to win. Juwan Howard, no matter how you look at it won't produce wins. With Gasol, atleast they have a future.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And it will only cost him 6 million not twice that as Gasol will cost.
</div>

Only 6 million? That's what, 1/6, 1/7th our cap space? That's pretty big if you ask me. I rather save that for a player that's not going to be 38 or however old when he finishes his contract.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That is not a very solid method you are using there. There is a reason why he doesnt play k-mart role or minutes, I'll let you figure that one out?
</div>

Why not? He was getting those numbers in the beginning of the year before he got hurt. He doesn't play those minutes cause he didn't full recover. Look at his first 9 games before he got hurt. Against the rockets, 35 minutes, 14 pts, 17 rebs, 1 blk. Two days later at the Magic, 22 pts, 9 rebs, 2 blocks in 45 minutes. later in the season against the Lakers 33 minutes, 10 pts, 16 rebs, 1 stl 2 blks. When he plays big minutes he contributes big. He just needs consistent minutes and Skiles wasn't giving it to him cause he was scared he'd get hurt cause he plays with too much intensity and bangs too much when he needs to recover. When I watch Tyson play, I see a guy who plays his heart out and is willing to risk getting hurt again to show others how good he is. It might not be a wise decision, but if he's fully recovered, like he and the bulls management says he is, he's gonna be a beast next season. Book it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And K-Mart is proven that he can produce beat up.</div>

That's why Alonzo basically called him a wuss for sitting out with a sore ankle?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He was basically beat up this year in the playoffs didnt complain once.
</div>

Every player has an injury of some kind. And I don't see anyone complaining about their injuries.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But a core three of Kidd, RJ, Howard we would have as good a shot as any against the Pistons and Pacers. </div>

Are you serious?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">We took the Pistons 7 with Kidd half-a** and RJ leading us. With there offseason moves that stilll dont have anyone who can guard RJ off the dribble, just like they didnt have one last year</div>

The Pistons became a lot better with signing McDyess, a more controlled and savy player than Memo Okur. A healthy McDyess (which is likely cause Brown will moniter his minutes) will boost the Pistons tremendously. And now the Pacers have Stephen Jackson, who'll be deadly because he provides outside shooting and he did well against the Nets in the Finals. He's gotten a lot better since then and I can see him hurting the Nets alot. He'll stretch the defense and allow more isolation for Jermaine O'Neal downlow. I'd rather take my chances with Gasol gaurding Jermaine than Howard.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He signed with Orlando wasnt traded from Denver. </div>

Yes I know and the only reason Denver didn't trade him was because he had a 100 million dollar contract and it gave them huge capspace.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He was traded from Dallas more or less because Howard Esley wasnt cutting as Steve Nash's backup and the Mavs had more depth at their forward spots then in their backcourt, so they had a chance to bring in a big time perimeter player in Van Exel who wasnt working out in Denver. And Washington traded because they made the wrong choice of investing & choicing Juwan Howard over Chris Webber, so they pretty much dumped Howard when he wasnt living up to the over dominate # Webber was putting up dring the same time in Sacro. It was kind of a save face move by them.
</div>

You know, it's real funny. Cause I said to you the last time we argued that Kenyon Martin getting a max contract would be like Juwan Howard and you laughed at me for making a comparison and that Juwan wasn't worth it. Now here you are defending him. It's funny how things changed.

I don't need a history of Juwan Howard, I've been through it, since his days at Michigan. The history doesn't matter. What does matter is what's going on with him now. He was never a great player to begin with and he isn't now. He's aging. He's gonna be on his contract till he's nearly 40 years old. He's not worth it. For all the talk you do about Kidd dropping off, why not apply it to Juwan?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I never said the guy was ever a max type player, I just said that at the price he is costing now, he is a good player. He has proven he can put # on the board everywhere he has gone.</div>

And yet he's never won anything.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So we are pretty mkuch a power forward away from staying in the hunt</div>

You really think Juwan Howard is that power forward? You need to get a reality check. Go watch some Juwan Howard tapes. I have some. I'd mail it to you if I could. His defense is atrocious. Only Glenn Robinson is worse. You talk about subpar defense with Gasol? Just watch Juwan Howard, he'd make Gasol look like Bill Russell.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I wonder when he plans on making his comback shot at the league because J. Kidd needs a backup & he should come cheap.
</div>

Last I heard he was overweight and wanted to give his first shot to the Bulls.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I didnt over look Boozer or Butler, Butler had a let down year last saeason so the jury is still out on him.</div>

You didn't mention them so I assumed you overlooked them. And Butler was injured for most of last season and was lost in the rotation when he came back only to find Lamar Odom to take his starting spot. He's still a solid player, atleast what I've seen in the playoffs.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And Boozer ,despite getting all that big money from Utah, the jury has to still be out. I remember Marc Jackson doing something similar with the warriors a few years back then he got payed by the Wolves</div>

It was more obvious that Marc was playing for a contract. Boozer's been working hard ever since college. In Duke everyone said he worked hard and when he got into the league he worked even harder to prove the critics wrong. I don't think Boozer is gonna start being lazy now when all through his career he was a hard worker.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Last seasons drat was pretty solid I will admit that but how often does a solid top to bottom draft come along.</div>

True, last season's draft was one of a kind, but I still think this year's draft is solid. Emeka Okafor will be a solid big in my opinion. Luol Deng, great player out of Blair Academy up in North Jers. I've been watching him since highschool and I know he's gonna make it big. Ben Gordon, he looks solid as Baron Davis did out of college. Devin Harris. I think he has the makings of the next Steve Nash with a lot better defense cause of his wingspan. Andre Iguodala is slated to be the next Pippen. Jameer Nelson will be a solid player for years to come. Luke Jackson should play off Lebron will and could be the next Brent Barry. Duhon should be a solid back up in the league. He'd probably even start on other teams like Seattle, Houston, and Golden State. And then you got the highschoolers, but I won't get into them cause they're only potential right now. The other players are set to be immediate help. I don't think the talent is worse than it has been, it's just been more diverse.

 

[Henacy]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">We got into this arguement already so I'm not going into it again. But let it known that Martin didn't do any better job that Gasol did. They both lost the series</div>.

Exactly, I didnt bring up Spurs matchups, you did.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think Gasol is a downgrade for the Nets either. I think he'd faired well enough in the tri-state area. He's very popular in Spain and the media there is following his steps. So I'd think he's used to it and he hasn't shown any signs of drop off. He's steadily getting better and better. It's just the rotation by Hubie Brown makes Pau play less minutes. Coming to the Nets, with Jason Kidd and he'll be a star.</div>

The difference is NY media will not be friendly toward him if he is a let down at the max price. Spain's media is freindly toward him no matter what so its totally different situation.

I dont know what Gasol minute situation was like in Memphis last season but the fact they were so deep probably had something to do with it. But being on a deep team also helped.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Sprewell got a lot of cheer and he wasn't worth the contract he had. </div>

People of NY related to him, he was anti-establishment, he was anti-allan Houston which made him more popular.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you think Howard will fit the prestige of teh bigmen in the tri-state area you're mistaken. But forget that, with Gasol we're a top team in the east and maybe going to the finals. Atleast Eastern Conference Finals and as long as we're winning the media and fans will be happy.</div>

No, but he surely doesnt cost max. and why are you making this a Gasol vs Howard debate on who better? I said Howard is more reasonable contract wise, which makes adding him more likely under Ratner's probable plan of not spending big amounts before we move to Brooklyn. I never once said Howard was a better player then Gasol.

When exactly do you see Gasol taking us to the Finals around what time?


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> That's how it always is. As long as you're winning, fans are happy. Kurt Thomas is a blue collar power foward but the fans are begging him to be traded. It's not the player, it's the wins the fans and media are worried about.</div>

The fans are begging for him to get traded because their owners always have him on the trade block to get unrealistic players, so it makes Knick fans think they can get something they really cant get for Kurt Thomas, which takes away from them appreciating what Thomas brings to the table. Because they have dreams of getting something richer.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What? He does so much more than score. He scores 2 more points than Kmart, grabs 1 less rebound and blocks almost 1 more shot. And gets almost 1 more assist</div>

Averaging little over 2 assist a game on a team with 8 or 9 legit scoring options isnt all that impressive in my opinion. K-Mart averaged that without those type of offense options.

And Gasol has more blocks because he doesnt have to focus on playing on ball defense like Martin does, so he gets to weakside roam more than Martin.

Gasol has the more polished scoring game no question. But they still were only seperated by about only 1 point per game last year.

Btw, there you go making those caparisions again, 1st.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And what is the difference? Max money is max money, no?



So you know Ratner now huh? Do you know his wife and kids too?

Do you also know how big Martin's contract is for this season alone?</div>

No I dont know Ratner but you have yet to explain to me how spending money before Ratner moves into his new building benefits him. Especially on a suspect max player like Gasol.

Why do you keep bringing up Martin's contract has very little to do with this debate?



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why wont it do that? Why not? Rockets moved to a new arena with Francis, Maurice Taylor, Cuttino Mobley, and Cato. They all together would equal three players making between 10 - 13 million.</div>

Different Ownership equal diferent situations simple as that. Ratner looks at the Nets as a business plan nothing more nothing less. He not going to take a team that might be affected by the luxury tax into a new building. The guy plans on building a mall and other real estate property along with the Knew building, he is going to try & keep the basketball part as cheap as possible.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Gasol has a whole country behind him. And I think if the Grizzlies were on TV more, they'd see how good of a player he is. He's one of a kind and fans like players who play with flair. And that's all Gasol. His handling is as good as any big man I've seen outside of KG and Dirk these days. He's always top, somtimes second to Shaq in dunks. He's got great foot work, probably the best that'd be in the area since Patrick and Derrick Coleman. He's very fun to watch and he's energetic and he's always cheering his teammates on. I don't see a reason to say he's not gonna make it.</div>

Yeah all thats nice but still doesnt make him a must see box office draw, which from a money standpoint would be the only reason for Ratner to shell out Max money for anybody not named RJ. People in the tri-state are not traveling to the boomdocks of the Airlines Arena to see Gasol play. He might put a few more people in the seats here & there but nothing close to being enuff that its benefical to Ratner.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Check the stats, Gasol already does that, plus much better defense</div>

Please Read my other Gasol vs Howard part of the post.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kidd wants players that can run with him. Juwan Howard isn't the player he used to be. He wont be able to run with Kidd. Gasol on the other hand is young and will be able to.</div>

Neither one is Martin, Mcdyess in 97' from a athletic, so thats pretty much meanless. Juwan Howard will surely be able to get his fair share of fastbreak points playing alongside kidd.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">RJ is a winner. He just wants to win. Juwan Howard, no matter how you look at it won't produce wins. With Gasol, atleast they have a future.</div>

You act like Gasol is some proven winner, he played on one playoff team. and they won more because their depth rather than Gasol's leadership or ablity to add wins to a team.

RJ, Howard, & kidd wont produce wins? please !



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Only 6 million? That's what, 1/6, 1/7th our cap space? That's pretty big if you ask me. I rather save that for a player that's not going to be 38 or however old when he finishes his contract.</div>

How much will Gasol max contract take up?

And how would Juwan Howard be 38 when his contracts up? He is 30 years old he has 4 years left, that puts him at 34 when his contract is up around. Same as kidd, when his contract is up.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why not? He was getting those numbers in the beginning of the year before he got hurt. He doesn't play those minutes cause he didn't full recover. Look at his first 9 games before he got hurt. Against the rockets, 35 minutes, 14 pts, 17 rebs, 1 blk. Two days later at the Magic, 22 pts, 9 rebs, 2 blocks in 45 minutes. later in the season against the Lakers 33 minutes, 10 pts, 16 rebs, 1 stl 2 blks. When he plays big minutes he contributes big. He just needs consistent minutes and Skiles wasn't giving it to him cause he was scared he'd get hurt cause he plays with too much intensity and bangs too much when he needs to recover. When I watch Tyson play, I see a guy who plays his heart out and is willing to risk getting hurt again to show others how good he is. It might not be a wise decision, but if he's fully recovered, like he and the bulls management says he is, he's gonna be a beast next season. Book it</div>

Well let see him recover and show off that beast ablity you are talking about, then maybe he will seem a little more logical. But until then I will pass. And Ratner probably will too.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That's why Alonzo basically called him a wuss for sitting out with a sore ankle?</div>

Which was a stupid comment by Zo, giving Martin's history of ankle problems since his days as a bearcat, its smart for him to sit out whenever it isnt feeling effective, one wrong move and it could be career ending. So lets get past that day where both side threw pointless shots at each other in a heated agruement.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Every player has an injury of some kind. And I don't see anyone complaining about their injuries.</div>





<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you serious?</div>

I'll have to get back to you because I cant see what I said here but Iam pretty sure what ever I said I meant.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Pistons became a lot better with signing McDyess, a more controlled and savy player than Memo Okur. A healthy McDyess (which is likely cause Brown will moniter his minutes) will boost the Pistons tremendously. And now the Pacers have Stephen Jackson, who'll be deadly because he provides outside shooting and he did well against the Nets in the Finals. He's gotten a lot better since then and I can see him hurting the Nets alot. He'll stretch the defense and allow more isolation for Jermaine O'Neal downlow. I'd rather take my chances with Gasol gaurding Jermaine than Howard.</div>

McDyess this point is not a a difference maker in a series. 1st he has to prove he can stay heathly enuff to have even a serious role on that team.

Yes Stephen Jackson was a great addition but the pacers gave up a bulk of their bench scoring to do it



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You know, it's real funny. Cause I said to you the last time we argued that Kenyon Martin getting a max contract would be like Juwan Howard and you laughed at me for making a comparison and that Juwan wasn't worth it. Now here you are defending him. It's funny how things changed</div>.

I seriously dont even remember Juwan Howard's name being brought up at all.
If you have recently seen that quote I would love to see exactly what I said because I remember us talking about Nene & Gasol and a few other young bigbodies.

And of course thing change if the money isnt going to be spent to bring in a max forward.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't need a history of Juwan Howard, I've been through it, since his days at Michigan. The history doesn't matter. What does matter is what's going on with him now. He was never a great player to begin with and he isn't now. He's aging. He's gonna be on his contract till he's nearly 40 years old. He's not worth it. For all the talk you do about Kidd dropping off, why not apply it to Juwan</div>

What are you talking about with this guy being 40 when his contract ends, I mean he gets older & older as read your post, he must has been born in a leap year.

It does apply to Horward as well but he doesnt have any lingering injury problem's that I know about. Kidd knee has had problems since PHX days and he is coming off a surgery that Chris Webber, Allan Houston are both yet to fully recover from. Its going to take alot of him to comeback from this injury which is going to effect his productivity spand.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And yet he's never won anything.



You really think Juwan Howard is that power forward? You need to get a reality check. Go watch some Juwan Howard tapes. I have some. I'd mail it to you if I could. His defense is atrocious. Only Glenn Robinson is worse. You talk about subpar defense with Gasol? Just watch Juwan Howard, he'd make Gasol look like Bill Russell</div>

ah.. No I am pretty much in touch with the reality on what Howard brings to the table and never once said his dense was good at all you are putting words in my mouth to better your weak case on giving Gasol the max.

Juwan Howard is not nor will he be the savior of the Nets. But he is a moderately priced bigman by todays standards who will allow a team led Kidd and Jefferson to be competive.

He isnt a maxed price bigman leaving in your fantasy world of the Nets getting. Yes Howard defense is subpar but it isant bad enuff to make Gasol look anything like Bill Russell your fooling yourself.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You didn't mention them so I assumed you overlooked them. And Butler was injured for most of last season and was lost in the rotation when he came back only to find Lamar Odom to take his starting spot. He's still a solid player, atleast what I've seen in the playoffs.



It was more obvious that Marc was playing for a contract. Boozer's been working hard ever since college. In Duke everyone said he worked hard and when he got into the league he worked even harder to prove the critics wrong. I don't think Boozer is gonna start being lazy now when all through his career he was a hard worker.



True, last season's draft was one of a kind, but I still think this year's draft is solid. Emeka Okafor will be a solid big in my opinion. Luol Deng, great player out of Blair Academy up in North Jers. I've been watching him since highschool and I know he's gonna make it big. Ben Gordon, he looks solid as Baron Davis did out of college. Devin Harris. I think he has the makings of the next Steve Nash with a lot better defense cause of his wingspan. Andre Iguodala is slated to be the next Pippen. Jameer Nelson will be a solid player for years to come. Luke Jackson should play off Lebron will and could be the next Brent Barry. Duhon should be a solid back up in the league. He'd probably even start on other teams like Seattle, Houston, and Golden State. And then you got the highschoolers, but I won't get into them cause they're only potential right now. The other players are set to be immediate help. I don't think the talent is worse than it has been, it's just been more diverse</div>

All this usless with the exception Jamieer Nelson and Chris Duhon are all lottery picks not really steals. And they are all still unproven because have played one game yet the league has been filled with should of, would of, could of beens. Iam sure a fair share of these players will be on that list as well in a couple seasons when their potienial card runs out.

 

[Next Level Game]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly, I didnt bring up Spurs matchups, you did.</div>

I brought up the Grizzlies-Spurs match-up. You introduced the Nets-Spurs finals. Different scenario.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The difference is NY media will not be friendly toward him if he is a let down at the max price. </div>

And he hasn't yet, so why are you so openly declaring that he isn't?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Spain's media is freindly toward him no matter what so its totally different situation.
</div>

You don't even know what Spain's media does, do you?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont know what Gasol minute situation was like in Memphis last season but the fact they were so deep probably had something to do with it. But being on a deep team also helped.
</div>

It doesn't help. It means that he has to fight for minutes with other good players. He has to fight with Lorenzen Wright, Stromile Swift for playing time because each of them are good, talented players. And if Hubie isn't liking what Pau is doing he could replace him and then Pau's on the bench, whereas in Jersey where Kenyon isn't playing well there really isn't an alternative player as good as he is.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">People of NY related to him, he was anti-establishment, he was anti-allan Houston which made him more popular.
</div>

What is this, the 70s? Anti-establishment? That implies he was against the Knicks management, which he wasn't until there was serious trade talks about Sprewell. And he wasn't anti-Allan Houston. Numerous times Srewell said they were friends and Houston confirmed that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No, but he surely doesnt cost max. and why are you making this a Gasol vs Howard debate on who better? </div>

Because essentially it's who's better for the team. You think Howard will solve the problem in the frontcourt, I think waiting for a younger, better player will.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I never once said Howard was a better player then Gasol.</div>

So essentially you don't like my idea because it interferes with what you know about Ratner, yet you think your plan will work. I seriously doubt that because I think if Ratner doesn't want contracts then he wouldn't take on Howards long term garunteed contract.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">When exactly do you see Gasol taking us to the Finals around what time?
</div>

I don't know. I can't see the future. But I can calculate probability and it's higher than Howard's chances.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The fans are begging for him to get traded because their owners always have him on the trade block to get unrealistic players, so it makes Knick fans think they can get something they really cant get for Kurt Thomas, which takes away from them appreciating what Thomas brings to the table. </div>

That's poor logic. Management always had Sprewell as trade bait and I used to read whacked out articles about how managment tried to get Stackhouse and Kwame Brown for Spre and Othella Harrington. I also read reports about Sprewell for Vince Carter trades. However, fans bashed management for even wanting to trade Sprewell. Fans loved him and didn't want him to leave.

There's no difference with Kurt Thomas, except the fact that Kurt isn't a high octane energy player like Sprewell, the real reason fans loved him, not that anti-establishment stuff. Thomas works hard but he doesn't show enough emotion.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Averaging little over 2 assist a game on a team with 8 or 9 legit scoring options isnt all that impressive in my opinion. K-Mart averaged that without those type of offense options.
</div>

Grizzlies offense runs in a fashion where Gasol gets the ball and isolates to score. That's his main objective. They rotate for shooters on the wings, but it's very limited when Gasol touches the ball. It's different with Martin who when he gets the ball players sort of cut within sight for Martin to pass to or they're in the fast break.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And Gasol has more blocks because he doesnt have to focus on playing on ball defense like Martin does, so he gets to weakside roam more than Martin.
</div>

What? Every player plays on the ball defense at one point or another and with all the bigmen in the west Gasol has to play against these players on a nightly basis where as Kenyon can take a night off when he's playing any other eastern team but Indiana.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Btw, there you go making those caparisions again, 1st. </div>

My comparisons were in response to yours. I started with comparing Howard and Gasol, the player you proposed vs the player I proposed. Then you brought Kmart in for a reason yet explained, and I responded. Simple as that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No I dont know Ratner but you have yet to explain to me how spending money before Ratner moves into his new building benefits him. Especially on a suspect max player like Gasol.
</div>

I asked the opposite and you didn't explain to me how saving benefits him. With a guy like Ratner, who has visibly unlimited resources I think investing in the team can get him somewhere. However, he's smart, he only wants to spend money for people that are worth it. Gasol is worth max money, while Howard isn't worth the garunteed money he's getting and the length of it. If he's willing to pay RJ max, then throwing some money Gasol's way to keep the fans interested in the team would go a long way for the opening of a new arena. In fact, I think the NY media and fans thing apply just as much as to Gasol as much as it does to Ratner. If Ratner is messing up the team then the fans and media will slander his name.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why do you keep bringing up Martin's contract has very little to do with this debate?</div>

You keep bringing up Martin vs. Gasol. Martin is making nearly 30 million dollars this season alone. Tell me that the Nets should match that offer. Any real business man would say that's foolish and stupid, unless Martin's gonna get them a championship.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Ratner looks at the Nets as a business plan nothing more nothing less</div>

There hasn't been one article of him saying that. You keep assuming it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He not going to take a team that might be affected by the luxury tax into a new building. </div>

Team is affected by luxuary cause of the Deke buyout and Zo contract. Once Deke's buyout ends and Zo's contract is discounted from the cap then its a whole new situation. There's room to spend money to keep the fans from rioting.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The guy plans on building a mall and other real estate property along with the Knew building, he is going to try & keep the basketball part as cheap as possible.
</div>

More and more assumptions, you don't know much about real estate, do you?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah all thats nice but still doesnt make him a must see box office draw, which from a money standpoint would be the only reason for Ratner to shell out Max money for anybody not named RJ. </div>

Perhaps not initally but after awhile when the fans start checking out the highlight reels they'll know how good he is. Isn't that how it worked with the first championship run? Everyone thought the Nets weren't gonna be that good and all of the sudden they started making some noise and viewing increased?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">People in the tri-state are not traveling to the boomdocks of the Airlines Arena to see Gasol play.</div>

You just don't like Gasol, do you?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He might put a few more people in the seats here & there but nothing close to being enuff that its benefical to Ratner.
</div>

There you go using your Ratner cop out excuse.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Neither one is Martin, </div>

whoa whoa whoa, weren't you the one who was bashing me for bringing up Martin before? Hey now, what are you doing here?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Juwan Howard will surely be able to get his fair share of fastbreak points playing alongside kidd.
</div>

Is this after the other team catches up with their transition defense or before the transition defense stops us?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You act like Gasol is some proven winner, he played on one playoff team.</div>

And what has Howard won in his 10 year career?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">and they won more because their depth rather than Gasol's leadership or ablity to add wins to a team.
</div>

So you're saying without Gasol they wouldn't be that far off from where they were? I think a large part is Gasol. Ask Hubie brown or any other player on that team and they'll say that Gasol was a big, if not the biggest factor they won games.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">RJ, Howard, & kidd wont produce wins? please !
</div>

I never said that. I said Howard won't add wins to the Nets. Gasol would add wins.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How much will Gasol max contract take up?
</div>

In production it would be worth it.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And how would Juwan Howard be 38 when his contracts up? He is 30 years old he has 4 years left, that puts him at 34 when his contract is up around. Same as kidd, when his contract is up.
</div>

Miscalculation on my part.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well let see him recover and show off that beast ablity you are talking about, then maybe he will seem a little more logical. But until then I will pass. And Ratner probably will too.
</div>

There you go talking about your good buddy Ratner. Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Which was a stupid comment by Zo, giving Martin's history of ankle problems since his days as a bearcat, its smart for him to sit out whenever it isnt feeling effective, one wrong move and it could be career ending. So lets get past that day where both side threw pointless shots at each other in a heated agruement.
</div>

Perhaps, but Zo comments were not far off.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'll have to get back to you because I cant see what I said here but Iam pretty sure what ever I said I meant.
</div>

You said the Nets with Howard would have a legit chance at beating Indiana and Detroit. Which I find far from true.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">McDyess this point is not a a difference maker in a series. </div>

I don't think that's true. With teams that are close he could very well be a difference maker because he's a veteran and still productive player. When he's playing a lot less minutes and not being focused as a main option he'll more than likely stay uninjured. Look at what happened with Camby.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes Stephen Jackson was a great addition but the pacers gave up a bulk of their bench scoring to do it</div>

Either Reggie or Stephen off the bench will produce enough points.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I seriously dont even remember Juwan Howard's name being brought up at all.
If you have recently seen that quote I would love to see exactly what I said because I remember us talking about Nene & Gasol and a few other young bigbodies.
</div>

My fault on this one, I got into an arguement with InNETSweTrust over it. However, I think what he says is very pertinant:

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting InNETSweTrust:</div><div class="quote_post">for the record, Antawn and Howard lacks the toughness </div>

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What are you talking about with this guy being 40 when his contract ends, I mean he gets older & older as read your post, he must has been born in a leap year.</div>

Miscalculation on my part and being born in a leap year would make him younger.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It does apply to Horward as well but he doesnt have any lingering injury problem's that I know about. Kidd knee has had problems since PHX days and he is coming off a surgery that Chris Webber, Allan Houston are both yet to fully recover from. Its going to take alot of him to comeback from this injury which is going to effect his productivity spand.
</div>

Can't really compare cause one is a great player and the other has been a let down throughout most of his career.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No I am pretty much in touch with the reality on what Howard brings to the table and never once said his dense was good at all you are putting words in my mouth to better your weak case on giving Gasol the max. </div>

Then you'll be "in touch" with how Howard frustration of many fans if this happens.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Juwan Howard is not nor will he be the savior of the Nets. But he is a moderately priced bigman by todays standards who will allow a team led Kidd and Jefferson to be competive.</div>

Then why get him and kill valuable cap space?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He isnt a maxed price bigman leaving in your fantasy world of the Nets getting</div>

That doesn't make sense.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes Howard defense is subpar but it isant bad enuff to make Gasol look anything like Bill Russell your fooling yourself.
</div>

You said yourself you haven't watched many Grizzlies games. Then what is to say Gasol's defense isn't decent? What about Howard? Have you seen any of his games? His defense is just God aweful and I wouldn't pay him 6 million just to score which is all he can do.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">All this usless with the exception Jamieer Nelson and Chris Duhon are all lottery picks not really steals. </div>

Duhon isn't a lottery pick. His scoring is erratic and he's inconsistent. Nelson could've been a lottery pick but unfortunately he's too short.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And they are all still unproven because have played one game yet </div>

Yeah cause the season hasn't started yet...

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Iam sure a fair share of these players will be on that list as well in a couple seasons when their potienial card runs out.
</div>

Unsurprisingly, I have no idea what you said again.

 

[Henacy]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I brought up the Grizzlies-Spurs match-up. You introduced the Nets-Spurs finals. Different scenario</div>

Common you said that K-Mart backs down from tuff frontlines.And then in the very next sentence you said what Gasol did against the Spurs. The Spurs are the only only team they have in common of facing for a 7 game series, which pretty much tells me you where trying to say that Martin backed down in a 7 game series vs Spurs (which you have said several times in the past) and Gasol didnt. In your very 1st or 2nd post.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You don't even know what Spain's media does, do you?</div>

Of course not but common sense and knowing New York media, tells me that Gasol being their native son & main NBA representative would get treated pretty well by them 24/7, while New York Media will kill him at the 1st sign of something going wrong. I dont think I need to know Spain media to figure that out.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It doesn't help. It means that he has to fight for minutes with other good players. He has to fight with Lorenzen Wright, Stromile Swift for playing time because each of them are good, talented players. And if Hubie isn't liking what Pau is doing he could replace him and then Pau's on the bench, whereas in Jersey where Kenyon isn't playing well there really isn't an alternative player as good as he is.</div>

He played about 32 minutes a game compared to Martin playing 34 minutes, not much difference. And it does help, you dont have to battle on the boards alone, he doesnt have to play much on ball defense on the best Power forward and post players, frontlines cant only focus on him like the did Martin etc.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What is this, the 70s? Anti-establishment? That implies he was against the Knicks management, which he wasn't until there was serious trade talks about Sprewell. And he wasn't anti-Allan Houston. Numerous times Srewell said they were friends and Houston confirmed that.</div>

Yes he did, he went against Knicks management his enter time hear basically from the contract dispute, the broken hand inncident etc.

He is Anti-Allan Houston in the fact that Houston is consider to be clean cut, never goes against the grain. Sprewell is the total & was the total opposite he had the Allen Iverson like locks flowing, he always went against the grain and he seem to have human flaws. And thats why the people embrassed him so much. And that just the start of their differences


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Because essentially it's who's better for the team. You think Howard will solve the problem in the frontcourt, I think waiting for a younger, better player will.</div>

Ok thats understandable that isnt going to come to the Nets thru FA with a max player while they are still located in NJ, I have stated why a million times. It going to have to come thru the draft maybe, but until then Howard keeps the Nets competive until then imo.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">essentially you don't like my idea because it interferes with what you know about Ratner, yet you think your plan will work. I seriously doubt that because I think if Ratner doesn't want contracts then he wouldn't take on Howards long term garunteed contract.</div>

Th Nets will be moving to New York in late 2008-09 from what I have heard(and it might even be later then that now because Ratner hasnt even gone infront of the NY review board and he going to have a hell of a time getting it approved, which is going to make it take longer) , his contract ends at that same time which means he will more than likely not being coming with the Nets to the new building, therefore affecting none of Ratners New York plans for the team.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know. I can't see the future. But I can calculate probability and it's higher than Howard's chances.



That's poor logic. Management always had Sprewell as trade bait and I used to read whacked out articles about how managment tried to get Stackhouse and Kwame Brown for Spre and Othella Harrington. I also read reports about Sprewell for Vince Carter trades. However, fans bashed management for even wanting to trade Sprewell. Fans loved him and didn't want him to leave</div>

Sprewell could never go bad in the eyes of New York fans, btw Stackhouse on the Wizards was not an upgrade or a fantasy deal that New York would go crazy about anyway. Kurt Thomas has been on the Market for everybody you can think of. Kurt thomas was on the trade block for Rasheed Wallace before he went to the Pistons. A couple of years ago going to Dallas for Van Exel when Van Exel was hot, and everyone in NY was screaming for a top pg etc.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There's no difference with Kurt Thomas, except the fact that Kurt isn't a high octane energy player like Sprewell, the real reason fans loved him, not that anti-establishment stuff. Thomas works hard but he doesn't show enough emotion.</div>

Yes the Anti-Establisment stuff had a large part to do why people where drawn to Sprewell and the energy & emotion of course is a apart of that, it was all about he had characteristics New Yorkers could relate too.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Grizzlies offense runs in a fashion where Gasol gets the ball and isolates to score. That's his main objective. They rotate for shooters on the wings, but it's very limited when Gasol touches the ball. It's different with Martin who when he gets the ball players sort of cut within sight for Martin to pass to or they're in the fast break</div>

That still doesnt make up for the fact that Gasol had better shooters around him, & better options to make high low pass in the post to yet, he still managed not to average more assist then Martin. If he was the great passer like you have been claiming in the debates over the last month, he clearly would have, I you said he gets Isoliated in the post alot, Isolations also create alot of assist opportunites as well as scoring opportunites.

And as far as the Nets motion offense with Cutters etc, JC is the main high post passer in those situations, so he benefits from that alot more than Martin does.

And yes K-Mart gets a decent amount of assist on the fastbreak because when Kidd gives him the pass as the trailer, he can make either the basket or the play for someone else by dumping of the pass to someone else. But that should be a testament to his ablities to make plays. Because you give some bigmen the ball as a trailer on the break and they can only do one thing with it, make the basket. And if that isnt available they cant make the another play for someone else, Amare imo has been that type of player so far in his career.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What? Every player plays on the ball defense at one point or another and with all the bigmen in the west Gasol has to play against these players on a nightly basis where as Kenyon can take a night off when he's playing any other eastern team but Indiana.</div>

He plays against them but he doesnt have to guard them much because he has players & bigmen around him that take that pressure off. If he isnt guarding TD, then he is guarding Rasho. Thats a major drop off, dont you think?


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">My comparisons were in response to yours. I started with comparing Howard and Gasol, the player you proposed vs the player I proposed. Then you brought Kmart in for a reason yet explained, and I responded. Simple as that.</div>

No once again you should read your 1st or 2nd post to see who brought Martin's name into the conversation, with all the comparisons


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
I asked the opposite and you didn't explain to me how saving benefits him. With a guy like Ratner, who has visibly unlimited resources I think investing in the team can get him somewhere. However, he's smart, he only wants to spend money for people that are worth it. Gasol is worth max money, while Howard isn't worth the garunteed money he's getting and the length of it. If he's willing to pay RJ max, then throwing some money Gasol's way to keep the fans interested in the team would go a long way for the opening of a new arena. In fact, I think the NY media and fans thing apply just as much as to Gasol as much as it does to Ratner. If Ratner is messing up the team then the fans and media will slander his name</div>

I have explianed a million times? if you go into a new building with a team that will be affected by the luxury tax, then you go into a new building with extra expenses, which Ratner is not going to do for Rau Gasol, dont see it happening.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You keep bringing up Martin vs. Gasol. Martin is making nearly 30 million dollars this season alone. Tell me that the Nets should match that offer. Any real business man would say that's foolish and stupid, unless Martin's gonna get them a championship.</div>

Where did I say the Nets should match in this conversation. I said it in the past of debates before Denver came with their front loaded offer. And when the shock 1st hit me that all we got was draft picks, But I never once even discussed K-Mart being matched or not being a Net next.

And once again you are the one talking about Gasol does this better than Martin & that better than Martin



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There hasn't been one article of him saying that. You keep assuming it.</div>

Hmmm.... Iam going under the assuption that the guys main goal is making & saving money, thats it thats all. And you say you listen to Mike & the Mad dog, well based on the calls they get on this guy from people discussing the Martin situation, the move to Brooklyn etc a large part of the tri-state area is under the same assumption as me.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Team is affected by luxuary cause of the Deke buyout and Zo contract. Once Deke's buyout ends and Zo's contract is discounted from the cap then its a whole new situation. There's room to spend money to keep the fans from rioting</div>

Yes but the Nets will aslo have alot of other roster spots to fill then just PF. If you give Gasol max, and Jefferson max, with kidd getting max please explaint to me how you do this without getting affected by the luxury tax. Because you cant sign a bunch of one year stiffs, with three max players you better put parts around them that will garuntee them being competive.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">More and more assumptions, you don't know much about real estate, do you?</div>



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Perhaps not initally but after awhile when the fans start checking out the highlight reels they'll know how good he is. Isn't that how it worked with the first championship run? Everyone thought the Nets weren't gonna be that good and all of the sudden they started making some noise and viewing increased</div>

Ah.. where have you been people havent been exactly running the arena to see us during our 2 back to back finals run. And thats Marin and all his fastbreak antics.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You just don't like Gasol, do you?</div>

Could careless about Gasol to honest, But the chances of him getting max from the Nets at this time is unrealistic.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There you go using your Ratner cop out excuse.</div>

excuse? hmm.. more like reality, you have fantasies of Ratner paying max to 2 players the same year, if RJ elects not to take the extension this year.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">whoa whoa whoa, weren't you the one who was bashing me for bringing up Martin before? Hey now, what are you doing here?



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Is this after the other team catches up with their transition defense or before the transition defense stops us</div>?

You act like Gasol is some super transition player, niether one is going to jump out the building to catch a kidd pass or run neck to neck with kidd like Martin did.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And what has Howard won in his 10 year career</div>

He has won just as much as Gasol.



So you're saying without Gasol they wouldn't be that far off from where they were? I think a large part is Gasol. Ask Hubie brown or any other player on that team and they'll say that Gasol was a big, if not the biggest factor they won games</div>

They won regular season games because of the depth simple as that. Not because of Gasol being some great leader like you make him out to be. I have seen some Grizzlies fans on this very board say that James Posey was their team MVP this year not Gasol.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I never said that. I said Howard won't add wins to the Nets. Gasol would add wins.</div>

Howard is an upgrade from our current frontline players of Kyle Davis, Jason Collins, Nenad Kristic, that in itself puts more wins on the table for the upcoming seasons


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
In production it would be worth it.



Miscalculation on my part.



There you go talking about your good buddy Ratner. Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?</div>

You should tell me your the one getting all crazy with your fantasy of bring another max player to go along with Kidd's outragous contract and Jefferson's expected contract. If the Nets were already in the brooklyn building I could see where you are coming from but right now the Nets will be living off cost effective players & draft picks. And stay competive with that.





<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Perhaps, but Zo comments were not far off</div>

Yes they were, thats stupid to play on an injured ankle if you have a past ankle problems come on.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You said the Nets with Howard would have a legit chance at beating Indiana and Detroit. Which I find far from true.</div>

I said with a healthy Kidd, RJ & Howard, they have a legit shot, meaning Kidd & RJ are still the main difference makers. And Howard is their to compete against O'neal etc and keep the power forward postion competive.




<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Either Reggie or Stephen off the bench will produce enough points.</div>

Stephen Jackson needs to be a starter to truely effective imo, because he is a high volume type player. Meaning needs alot of shots, alot of minutes etc, part of the reason he left Spurs is becuase he didnt want to risk Manu starting over him.

And Reggie can still hit big shots but he wont be a Al Harrington consistent type scoring option off the bench




<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Can't really compare cause one is a great player and the other has been a let down throughout most of his career</div>.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Then you'll be "in touch" with how Howard frustration of many fans if this happens.</div>

Yes but Gasol at 80 million will frustrate Nets fans much more if he is a flop.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Then why get him and kill valuable cap space</div>

No he affects cap space, Gasol would kill cap space.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That doesn't make sense</div>.

Juwan Howard doesnt cost anything close to what Gasol will cost which makes him more of a reality.



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You said yourself you haven't watched many Grizzlies games. Then what is to say Gasol's defense isn't decent? What about Howard? Have you seen any of his games? His defense is just God aweful and I wouldn't pay him 6 million just to score which is all he can do.</div>


Neither one is that great denfesively on ball, I so why do you keep focusing on just Howard defense being bad, his defense wont be costing a 80+ million dollars is my whole point, What so hard to understand



<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Duhon isn't a lottery pick. His scoring is erratic and he's inconsistent. Nelson could've been a lottery pick but unfortunately he's too short.




Yeah cause the season hasn't started yet...</div>

Exactly

Unsurprisingly, I have no idea what you said again.[/QUOTE]

What so hard to understand players get a certain amount of time where they stay in the league or a considered future superstars based on potenial. Once that ends alot fall by the waste side. Iam pretty sure that their will be some from the 2003 & 2004 class to fall waste side soon.

Lets just end this debat by both agreeing to wait to hell freezes over until Gasol being a Net in the near future, because it aint going to happen next offseason.

 

[Next Level Game]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Common you said that K-Mart backs down from tuff frontlines.And then in the very next sentence you said what Gasol did against the Spurs. The Spurs are the only only team they have in common of facing for a 7 game series, which pretty much tells me you where trying to say that Martin backed down in a 7 game series vs Spurs (which you have said several times in the past) and Gasol didnt. In your very 1st or 2nd post. </div>

Well, not surprisingly, you assumed wrong. Kmart went up against the Pistons and faded, not just the Spurs.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Of course not but common sense and knowing New York media, tells me that Gasol being their native son & main NBA representative would get treated pretty well by them 24/7, while New York Media will kill him at the 1st sign of something going wrong.</div>

If you don't know anything about Spanish media, then don't say anything. There are plenty articles that bang on Pau's game, and some that praise it. Right now he's with the Spanish National team and he's been playing hard. It's the same Spanish team that gave Nenad Kristic a cut on his face. They don't back down.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont think I need to know Spain media to figure that out.
</div>

You don't need to know a lot of things, huh?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> He played about 32 minutes a game compared to Martin playing 34 minutes, not much difference. And it does help, you dont have to battle on the boards alone, he doesnt have to play much on ball defense on the best Power forward and post players, frontlines cant only focus on him like the did Martin etc. </div>

You can only have 5 players on the court so it's not like Pau was an extra 6th man on court. He has to play defense like everyone else. The Pistons have a deep front court, does that mean less defense responsibility for Ben Wallace and Sheed? Hell no. It's less for players like the gaurds who gamble for steals.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Yes he did, he went against Knicks management his enter time hear basically from the contract dispute, the broken hand inncident etc.</div>

The was the latter of his Knicks career, which I wasn't addressing.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> He is Anti-Allan Houston in the fact that Houston is consider to be clean cut, never goes against the grain. Sprewell is the total & was the total opposite he had the Allen Iverson like locks flowing, he always went against the grain and he seem to have human flaws. And thats why the people embrassed him so much. And that just the start of their differences</div>

Ok, obviously you have a misunderstanding in the prefix "anti". What you're talking about is "opposite". Sprewell was the opposite of Houston is what you're getting at. When you say anti, it means that he's against something, and in this case Houston. So when you said Anti-Allan Houston I used the defintion of anti and thought you mean that Sprewell didn't like Houston. Here's the definition, courtesy of dictionary.com:

anti Audio pronunciation of anti ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nt, -t)
n. pl. antis

A person who is opposed to something, such as a group, policy, proposal, or practice.

adj.

Opposed: Douglas MacArthur had a coterie of worshipers, balanced off by an equal number... who were vehemently anti (Joseph C. Harsch).

prep.

Opposed to; against.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Ok thats understandable that isnt going to come to the Nets thru FA with a max player while they are still located in NJ, I have stated why a million times. </div>

No you haven't. You kept asking me the oppsoite question.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Sprewell could never go bad in the eyes of New York fans, btw Stackhouse on the Wizards was not an upgrade or a fantasy deal that New York would go crazy about anyway. Kurt Thomas has been on the Market for everybody you can think of. Kurt thomas was on the trade block for Rasheed Wallace before he went to the Pistons. A couple of years ago going to Dallas for Van Exel when Van Exel was hot, and everyone in NY was screaming for a top pg etc. </div>

Stackhouse and Kwame Brown and Jarred Jefferies for Sprewell and Othella Harrington is one hell of a deal for New York, if you ask me. Sprewell for Vince Carter is also one hell of a deal. In the end NY just didn't want to get rid of their favorite player. It's simple.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Yes the Anti-Establisment stuff had a large part to do why people where drawn to Sprewell and the energy & emotion of course is a apart of that, it was all about he had characteristics New Yorkers could relate too.
</div>

I think you just have a misunderstanding of what anti-establishment means. It would imply that he's against everything that has power and authority. It entails so much more than contract issues and being traded.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> That still doesnt make up for the fact that Gasol had better shooters around him, & better options to make high low pass in the post to yet, he still managed not to average more assist then Martin. If he was the great passer like you have been claiming in the debates over the last month, he clearly would have, I you said he gets Isoliated in the post alot, Isolations also create alot of assist opportunites as well as scoring opportunites.
</div>

I never called him a great passer, just a better passer than Martin. He's a good passer. He has decent court vision for a bigman and has been known to pass out of the double team. Kmart hasn't really done that much.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
And as far as the Nets motion offense with Cutters etc, JC is the main high post passer in those situations, so he benefits from that alot more than Martin does.</div>

Cause Collins is a smarter player and a better passer than Martin is.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> He plays against them but he doesnt have to guard them much because he has players & bigmen around him that take that pressure off. If he isnt guarding TD, then he is guarding Rasho. Thats a major drop off, dont you think?
</div>

Yeah so he has help. This is one time I brought Martin into this. Martin had help. Aaron Williams. Jason Collins. Deke. That's a pretty solid defensive help line up for Martin. From my recollection, Deke did the best job on Duncan. Defensively that line up is solid.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
No once again you should read your 1st or 2nd post to see who brought Martin's name into the conversation, with all the comparisons</div>

This is so adolescent. And I did read the posts and you brought his name in first. Read your 2nd post #3.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
I have explianed a million times? if you go into a new building with a team that will be affected by the luxury tax, then you go into a new building with extra expenses, which Ratner is not going to do for Rau Gasol, dont see it happening. </div>

The Luxuary tax entails that we have a payroll greater than 56 million. So if we had Jefferson making 10 mil a year, Pau making 12, and Jason making 14, added with Jason Collins, who should make 3, that's 39 million all together. That still leaves 6 mil of cap space and another 11 million before we pay the luxury tax.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Where did I say the Nets should match in this conversation. I said it in the past of debates before Denver came with their front loaded offer. And when the shock 1st hit me that all we got was draft picks, But I never once even discussed K-Mart being matched or not being a Net next.</div>

Heh. I could find it, but this is my lunch break.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And once again you are the one talking about Gasol does this better than Martin & that better than Martin
</div>

It's true.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Hmmm.... Iam going under the assuption that the guys main goal is making & saving money, thats it thats all.</div>

Which owner's objective is not that? Which owner is like "hey I'm gonna blow all my money just to lose."

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And you say you listen to Mike & the Mad dog, well based on the calls they get on this guy from people discussing the Martin situation, the move to Brooklyn etc a large part of the tri-state area is under the same assumption as me. </div>

All interpretations, analysis secondary information. Till I hear him say it, I don't mind much what the public at large believe.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Yes but the Nets will aslo have alot of other roster spots to fill then just PF. If you give Gasol max, and Jefferson max, with kidd getting max please explaint to me how you do this without getting affected by the luxury tax. </div>

Read above. Brush yourself up with the CBA before asking.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Because you cant sign a bunch of one year stiffs, with three max players you better put parts around them that will garuntee them being competive. </div>

Ratner's a savy buisnessman. He's a bit too frugal, but he's smart. He's not rich by being stupid. He should know which players to invest in and which players to hold out on. And I understand that. In today's NBA, too many players are being overpaid. Hedo with a 39 million contract? Foyle with a 42 million? I think Ratner wants to avoid that and pay the right players what they deserve, and it's apparent in the Jefferson talks.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Ah.. where have you been people havent been exactly running the arena to see us during our 2 back to back finals run. And thats Marin and all his fastbreak antics. </div>

Martin wouldn't have any fastbreaks without Kidd. Kidd makes a player a star. Did it with McDyess. Did it with Marion. Did it with Jefferson and Martin. He should be able to do it with Pau.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Could careless about Gasol to honest, But the chances of him getting max from the Nets at this time is unrealistic.</div>

Atleast it comes out. And unrealistic, probably, but no more unrealistic than the Nets taking on Howard.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> excuse? hmm.. more like reality, you have fantasies of Ratner paying max to 2 players the same year, if RJ elects not to take the extension this year. </div>

And your fantasies of overpaying Howard and unsubstantied claims don't affect you?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
They won regular season games because of the depth simple as that. Not because of Gasol being some great leader like you make him out to be. I have seen some Grizzlies fans on this very board say that James Posey was their team MVP this year not Gasol. </div>

There would be no depth without Gasol. Depth means that it extends beyond the starter. Who led the team in points. What about rebounds. What about blocks? I would say he was a big contributer. Posey is a a good swingman but it's rare to have a talented bigman like Pau.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Howard is an upgrade from our current frontline players of Kyle Davis, Jason Collins, Nenad Kristic, that in itself puts more wins on the table for the upcoming seasons</div>

Skill wise yes. Future, no.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> You should tell me your the one getting all crazy with your fantasy of bring another max player to go along with Kidd's outragous contract and Jefferson's expected contract. If the Nets were already in the brooklyn building I could see where you are coming from but right now the Nets will be living off cost effective players & draft picks. And stay competive with that.</div>

Howard isn't a cost effective player.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes they were, thats stupid to play on an injured ankle if you have a past ankle problems come on.</div>

You don't know how injured Martin's ankle was. Zo knows more than both of us. Maybe Martin just said "man my ankle hurts" all practice and it was really nothing more than a small twist and there was no visible further injury. We don't know.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
I said with a healthy Kidd, RJ & Howard, they have a legit shot, meaning Kidd & RJ are still the main difference makers. And Howard is their to compete against O'neal etc and keep the power forward postion competive.
</div>

Howard is not gonna stop O'Neal, is what we need to do. Trade for PJ Brown if you want that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Yes but Gasol at 80 million will frustrate Nets fans much more if he is a flop.</div>

No one has called him a flop yet. What if he turns out to be a big star for the Nets? Don't be so pessimistic.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
No he affects cap space, Gasol would kill cap space.</div>

Read above.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Neither one is that great denfesively on ball, I so why do you keep focusing on just Howard defense being bad, his defense wont be costing a 80+ million dollars is my whole point, What so hard to understand</div>

And what's so hard to understand that Gasol is a better upgrade than Howard? Gasol's on the ball defense is solid. I can't say that enough for you to get that. He's a good shot blocker, better than Martin. He has a big wingspan and quick feet. He has the making to be a good defensive player on the ball. He just needs to work at it. And I don't think you watch Howard play enough on defense to realize how bad he is.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
What so hard to understand players get a certain amount of time where they stay in the league or a considered future superstars based on potenial. Once that ends alot fall by the waste side. Iam pretty sure that their will be some from the 2003 & 2004 class to fall waste side soon.</div>

You're so unequivocal when you say things. I'm not your teacher so I'm not going to sit here and try to decipher your english. I make an effort to be clear. I expect the same.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Lets just end this debat by both agreeing to wait to hell freezes over until Gasol being a Net in the near future, because it aint going to happen next offseason.</div>

I never said it was going to happen. I never said it was garunteed. What I did say was that I don't like your Howard proposal and interjected what I think the Nets should do. Both are proposals, and both have the same probability of happening, which is very low.

 

[Henacy]

Anyway,you bring up Martin & the piston's again etc. man please I am not going thru this long process all over again.


Iam just eding this debate by saying this go read the bottom sentence in today's post. I know what your going to say the post isnt legit anymore or what ever.

But it clear talks about the Nets rebuilding so to speak over the next 4 years.

Why do they say 4 years? because thats how long from now the Nets (if lucky) will be moving into their new building.

Which means it makes no sense to have 3 max players on your roster during a time when you are trying to re-build. With three Max players you better be garunteed of being in the championship hunt, which the Nets want be unless those three have serious parts around them, which would end up costing Ratner money, so he isnt going to do it.

If you have Howard and even if you are just a competive team, to keep the fans interested in the Nets until they move to brooklyn, you are not killing your cap situation.

BTW, I never said the probablity of getting Howard was high, I said it was more realistic way to go then Gasol, nothing more nothing less.

 

[Next Level Game]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Anyway,you bring up Martin & the piston's again etc. man please I am not going thru this long process all over again.
</div>

I honestly think you didn't read my entire post.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Iam just eding this debate by saying this go read the bottom sentence in today's post. I know what your going to say the post isnt legit anymore or what ever</div>

What post, New York Post?

If they're re-building then they might as well not take on any long-term contracts, including Howard. And keeping Howard wouldn't be enough to keep the fans interested. Die-hard fans wont leave if we went back sucking. The Nets fans that's been with us in hopes of a championship will leave because the highlight reels are over. The championship will be just a dream. So if you're gonna get wet, you might as well go swinning; meaning if we're gonna rebuild we might as well go full into rebuilding mode and get the big cap space we need.

 

[Henacy]

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I honestly think you didn't read my entire post</div>

Nope because it was once again getting off the main topic, Once I read K-Mart & Pistons in the same sentence, I was pretty much done with that situation. If you feel K-Mart wasnt productive they way he should have been then so be it. Iam not going to try and convince you differently.


<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What post, New York Post?

If they're re-building then they might as well not take on any long-term contracts, including Howard. And keeping Howard wouldn't be enough to keep the fans interested. Die-hard fans wont leave if we went back sucking. The Nets fans that's been with us in hopes of a championship will leave because the highlight reels are over. The championship will be just a dream. So if you're gonna get wet, you might as well go swinning; meaning if we're gonna rebuild we might as well go full into rebuilding mode and get the big cap space we need</div>

I totally 100% agree, but from Bruce Ratner's standpoint he has to keep some interest in the Nets because the board isnt going to even approve bringing a dead franchise to NY. It just wouldnt benefit the city of New York, with the Knicks, Yankee etc. He plans on moving millions of people out their homes etc, so he got to give them a good enuff reason for the NY board to approve such a thing. And bringing the clippers-east isnt going to cut it. So a somewhat competive, fan interested team will be needed. If this was Charlotte any other major pro basketball franchise(before the Bobcats) around then I can see just bring in any expansion type team(which the Nets would be if the lost Jefferson & kidd, if they werent willing to be somewhat competive) But this is New York.

 

[jbbNJNetz]

Well theres no use in arguing about trading players cause have lost all all our real trade bait. other then Kidd, jefferson, harris, and williams.