Zombie Trading CJ

[Cippy91]

I don't think we need to get rid of cj for Noel. I don't even think we need to trade cj. I think we can keep both guards. We honestly just need a better supporting cast around the two. Olshey and the team have really marketed this team behind dame and cj, them being brothers practically living here with their families and what not. Both got huge extensions. I don't think the plan is to even look for a trade for cj. Dame is completely off the table as he should be. Supporting cast. It's what we need

 

[KeepOnRollin]

I didn't mean we would consider trading CJ for Noel. That would be a massive overpay. I merely mean if CJ is moved before the summer (which I highly doubt) PHI has to be involved in some way.

 

[blue9]

I am 100% against trading CJ.

My biggest fear is that CJ will be traded.
Reason, he maybe the only Blazer player that can get Olshey out of the huge mess he created with the cap situation. While making the team more competitive.

My guess is a trade centered on CJ and the Cavs first to Philly, for Noel and their unprotected lottery first, fine tune as needed.

This trade would balance Philly’s roster.
We would get a starting center, and, probably a top 3 pick on a rookie contract.

I've definitely gotten to the point where I question whether the two can work together as the starting back-court of a championship team. I think the answer is probably "no". However, I would like to explore a coaching change before trading CJ to see if we can't make Dame/CJ work. It's a hell of a lot easier to replace a coach like Stotts than it is a player like CJ.

 

[GDiama]

I've definitely gotten to the point where I question whether the two can work together as the starting back-court of a championship team. I think the answer is probably "no". However, I would like to explore a coaching change before trading CJ to see if we can't make Dame/CJ work. It's a hell of a lot easier to replace a coach like Stotts than it is a player like CJ.

You can surely replace easier Stotts than CJ, BUT what would be the point? Is Stotts the problem that Dame and CJ might not be good enough as a backcourt or is it that they are identical players that are good on offense and bad on defense and they are also both 6'3? I mean we need to look at the facts and wonder how can this work and would anything be really different with a new coach? I think it's more of their fault than the coach's fault that they are a liability defensively. They are not trying as hard as they should be and they never manage to avoid a tough screen, after the first screen they always seem lost.

 

[blue9]

You can surely replace easier Stotts than CJ, BUT what would be the point? Is Stotts the problem that Dame and CJ might not be good enough as a backcourt or is it that they are identical players that are good on offense and bad on defense and they are also both 6'3? I mean we need to look at the facts and wonder how can this work and would anything be really different with a new coach? I think it's more of their fault than the coach's fault that they are a liability defensively. They are not trying as hard as they should be and they never manage to avoid a tough screen, after the first screen they always seem lost.

The point would be to find out if Dame/CJ can be a championship caliber back court. I don't think they can, but I'd rather gather more evidence to support/refute the claim before trading CJ. A coaching change is the best way to gather more evidence. Replacing Stotts is not hard. Finding a player of CJ's ability is much more difficult. If after a new coach implements their system we're still no better off, then it's time to make a line-up change.

Unfortunately, we'll probably end up doing this in reverse order.

 

[oldfisherman]

I've definitely gotten to the point where I question whether the two can work together as the starting back-court of a championship team. I think the answer is probably "no". However, I would like to explore a coaching change before trading CJ to see if we can't make Dame/CJ work. It's a hell of a lot easier to replace a coach like Stotts than it is a player like CJ.

Agree, we both have the same concerns.

Replacing CJ maybe more than difficult, it maybe next to impossible. It appears the end to the shortage of quality SGs is nowhere in sight.

DraftExpress only projects one SG drafted in the first round, @ #18. There are quit a few PGs & Fs in the lottery. Only one is a PG/SG combo. Monk playing for Kentucky appears to be a CJ clone/replacement.

 

[Minstrel]

Replacing Stotts is not hard.

Replacing Stotts with someone better is hard. And not because Stotts is great, but because finding difference-making coaches is very difficult--maybe as difficult as finding a star player. There are only a few in the league, in my opinion. Most likely, whomever you replace Stotts with will just be a different version of Stotts--similar quality, different strengths and weaknesses.

Maybe that's fine for "data collection," but remember that you're burning prime years of Lillard's and McCollum's careers while you try to collect more data (a new coach will need some years to implement his system and build things his way).

I'm all for trying to find a better coach than Stotts, but I think roster-building--including a potential McCollum trade--needs to take place in parallel. The Blazers need to find the right combination around Lillard as quickly as they can, because even after you have, there will likely be tweaks necessary, growing pains with that roster and maybe contention years that don't end in a title. All of that takes up time. In my opinion, it can't wait until after you've cycled through a coach or two to be absolutely certain that Lillard and McCollum aren't an ideal backcourt partnership.

 

[riverman]

I'm a Stotts fan...it's just that I think he needs a better big man coach and a designated defensive coordinator which he scrapped when he got here...I think we also need to send a couple of 3rd stringers to the D league throughout the season to get them some court time. We suck at using the D league

 

[dviss1]

You dont think so? Oh yeah, you missed last nights game!

So. I've seen both extensively and far superior is just not what I'd say.

I am 100% against trading CJ.

My biggest fear is that CJ will be traded.
Reason, he maybe the only Blazer player that can get Olshey out of the huge mess he created with the cap situation. While making the team more competitive.

My guess is a trade centered on CJ and the Cavs first to Philly, for Noel and their unprotected lottery first, fine tune as needed.

This trade would balance Philly’s roster.
We would get a starting center, and, probably a top 3 pick on a rookie contract.

Yeah but if you can get Noel for Crabbe and scraps you do that instead.

 

[blue9]

Replacing Stotts with someone better is hard. And not because Stotts is great, but because finding difference-making coaches is very difficult--maybe as difficult as finding a star player. There are only a few in the league, in my opinion. Most likely, whomever you replace Stotts with will just be a different version of Stotts--similar quality, different strengths and weaknesses.

Maybe that's fine for "data collection," but remember that you're burning prime years of Lillard's and McCollum's careers while you try to collect more data (a new coach will need some years to implement his system and build things his way).

I'm all for trying to find a better coach than Stotts, but I think roster-building--including a potential McCollum trade--needs to take place in parallel. The Blazers need to find the right combination around Lillard as quickly as they can, because even after you have, there will likely be tweaks necessary, growing pains with that roster and maybe contention years that don't end in a title. All of that takes up time. In my opinion, it can't wait until after you've cycled through a coach or two to be absolutely certain that Lillard and McCollum aren't an ideal backcourt partnership.

I agree, to an extent. I do agree that most coaches are not difference-makers, and that includes Stotts. It's possible that we'd end up with a worse coach, but not necessarily likely - while it's not only likely, but pretty much a given, that we'd end up with a worse SG than CJ.

I'd much rather make a lateral move with the coach, than a step backwards with the roster. And the chance for improvement in coaching is much greater than the chance for improvement at SG. Basically we have very little to lose, and potentially a lot to gain, with a coaching change. A roster change involves a hell of a lot more risk, and potentially more reward. But the reward will still be limited by our current system/coach.

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelphia-76ers/brett-brown-we-want-see-nerlens-and-joel-little-bit

BRETT BROWN: 'WE WANT TO SEE NERLENS AND JOEL A LITTLE BIT'

CAMDEN, N.J. — Just as the experimental phase of one bigs pairing seems to be closing, another could be beginning.

The Sixers took a look at the combination of Joel Embiid and Jahlil Okafor for six straight games. They went 1-5 with the two centers in the starting lineup together and there were evident struggles on both ends of the floor.

Now that the Sixers are working Nerlens Noel back into the rotation, they are interested in seeing how he can play with Embiid.

“We want to see Nerlens and Joel a little bit,” Brett Brown said. “I think the Jahlil-Joel pairing we’ve seen. ... I think it’s fair to say, mostly, there’s nothing 100 percent certain with all of this.”

The Sixers initially planned to pair Embiid and Okafor for a total of eight games and then evaluate when they returned from their recent road trip. They ended up doing it for six after both players sat out a game at the end of the West Coast series.

During that time, Noel received an increase in minutes on back-to-back nights in their absence. He jumped from a season high of 10 minutes to averaging 20.5 in the last two games. The Sixers have a new look to examine with Noel in the mix again.

 

[Minstrel]

while it's not only likely, but pretty much a given, that we'd end up with a worse SG than CJ.

I'd much rather make a lateral move with the coach, than a step backwards with the roster. And the chance for improvement in coaching is much greater than the chance for improvement at SG.

No one's advocating cutting McCollum--a good trade would bring back similar value, just in a different package. It may not be a shooting guard so, yes, shooting guard would get worse. But it could be a big upgrade at power forward or center. I also don't think the Blazers should trade McCollum for a downgrade in talent just to break up the Lillard/McCollum duo.

If the only available trades would weaken the roster overall, then yes, you keep McCollum. But I'd hope that Olshey could find a similarly-talented player and the roster wouldn't take a step back. Again, it doesn't have to be guard for guard.

 

[oldfisherman]

Yeah but if you can get Noel for Crabbe and scraps you do that instead.

You guys need to wake up from that dream.

Rasheedfan2005 has a better chance of spending the night naked with Jessica Alba than the Blazers have of trading Crabbe & scraps for Noel.

 

[Minstrel]

You guys need to wake up from that dream.

Rasheedfan2005 has a better chance of spending the night naked with Jessica Alba than the Blazers have of trading Crabbe & scraps for Noel.

That's been my thought, as well, but Colangelo has been doing his best to kill Noel's value, so I can't say with any assurance that he wouldn't make that swap.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Crabbe & Scraps for Noel.

That sounds like a superhero porn parody.

Crab and Scraps in the case of the lonely housewife.

 

[Boob-No-More]

http://www.csnphilly.com/philadelphia-76ers/brett-brown-we-want-see-nerlens-and-joel-little-bit

BRETT BROWN: 'WE WANT TO SEE NERLENS AND JOEL A LITTLE BIT'

CAMDEN, N.J. — Just as the experimental phase of one bigs pairing seems to be closing, another could be beginning.

The Sixers took a look at the combination of Joel Embiid and Jahlil Okafor for six straight games. They went 1-5 with the two centers in the starting lineup together and there were evident struggles on both ends of the floor.

Now that the Sixers are working Nerlens Noel back into the rotation, they are interested in seeing how he can play with Embiid.

“We want to see Nerlens and Joel a little bit,” Brett Brown said. “I think the Jahlil-Joel pairing we’ve seen. ... I think it’s fair to say, mostly, there’s nothing 100 percent certain with all of this.”

The Sixers initially planned to pair Embiid and Okafor for a total of eight games and then evaluate when they returned from their recent road trip. They ended up doing it for six after both players sat out a game at the end of the West Coast series.

During that time, Noel received an increase in minutes on back-to-back nights in their absence. He jumped from a season high of 10 minutes to averaging 20.5 in the last two games. The Sixers have a new look to examine with Noel in the mix again.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

To quote George Carlin:

Shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker, tits...

I just posted about this in another thread yersterday:

BTW, Neil needs to make this happen as close to January 15 as possible. No point waiting another 5 weeks until the trade deadline on February 23.

I don't want him to give PHI enough time to come to the inevitable realization that Jahlil Okafor is Marreese Speights 2.0 and decide he's the big man they need to be shopping. Like Speights, Okafor is best suited to an instant offense off the bench role. He'd actually make our defense worse.

BNM

Dammit! I was hoping to pry Noel from PHI before they came to the inevitable conclusion that he's a much better player than Jahlil Okafor.

For this very reason, Okafor was the one of the two that was originally on the block back in June and July, but they couldn't get any takers for Marresse Speights 2.0.

Then Noel had the audacity to call the situation in PHI "silly", got thrown into Bryan Colaneglo's dog house and became the odd center out in PHI.

Now, after actually watching Okafor play next to Embiid, PHI is realizing they've been shopping the wrong player. Crap, crap, crap!

The best we can hope for is either Noel is still rusty and plays like crap, or that Embiid and Noel are just a terrible fit next to each other. Both suffered when playing next to Okafor. I can't imagine the two together could be any worse than either paired with Okafor.

God dammit!

BNM

 

[Denny Crane]

I'd gladly take Okafor.

He's 4th best DRtg on Philly for guys with 200+ minutes. It's actually improved over last season.

His 1.7 blocks/36 indicates some rim protection. It beats Plums' 1.3.

On the offensive side of the court, he's clearly got game. He's not going to stretch the floor, but he is going to give us post scoring. No more live by the jumpshot, die by the jumpshot. The classic inside/outside game. P&R.

He's only 21.

He will flourish if he gets out of Philly.

 

[oldfisherman]

That's been my thought, as well, but Colangelo has been doing his best to kill Noel's value, so I can't say with any assurance that he wouldn't make that swap.

Maybe Colangelo is trying to kill Noels value because Noel will be a RFA next summer, and taking contract offers from other GMs?

 

[Boob-No-More]

Yet another reason to NOT trade C.J. - continued improvement.

We all know he justifiably won MIP last season. The thing that was most impressive, to me, was that his increased production was not just a function of increased playing time. Most players, when thrust into a larger role against better competition see their efficiency decrease. Last year, C.J. was just the opposite. With his expanded role, his efficiency actually increased. That's pretty rare at this level.

This morning, I was perusing basketball-reference.com when I noticed something equally, perhaps even more impressive. As much as his efficiency improved last year, it's taken an even bigger jump this year. His raw per game numbers are up again, but with a very slight decrease in PT, the per game increase isn't as noticeable as last year. He's actually scoring 2.1 more PTS/G while playing slightly fewer minutes and attempting slightly fewer FGA/G.

His shooting percentages have improved across the board every year he's been in the league.

Here they are:
2013-14: FG% = .416, 3FG% = .375, 2FG% = .449, eFG% = .500, FT% = .676, TS% = .521
2014-15: FG% = .436, 3FG% = .396, 2FG% = .460, eFG% = .511, FT% = .699, TS% = .534
2015-16: FG% = .448, 3FG% = .417, 2FG% = .463, eFG% = .517, FT% = .827, TS% = .544
2016-17: FG% = .479, 3FG% = .430, 2FG% = .502, eFG% = .549, FT% = .901, TS% = .591

I don't think I've ever seen that before, a player who improved every one of his shooting percentages for four straight seasons, especially as his role and PT also increased. After a full season averaging over 20ppg, he isn't taking anyone by surprise. He's been scouted and game planned, yet he continues to improve his efficiency. I think the fact that his shooting percentages have increased again this season is impressive, but I think it's even more impressive that the largest jumps in his eFG% and TS% have come the season AFTER winning MIP. Hell, if I had an MIP vote, it would go to C.J, again this year (assuming he keeps this up).

As a result, his PER has also taken a substantial jump every year:

2013-14: PER = 9.0
2014-15: PER = 13.1
2015-16: PER = 17.7
2016-17: PER = 20.5

What does this all mean? To me, it means we have not yet seen the best C.J. McCollum has to offer. He is 25-years old, about to enter the prime of his career and still improving at a very impressive rate.

To me, trading a player this young who has shown significant improvement four years in a row is extremely shortsighted. We still don't know how good this guy can be. If you are going to trade him you wait until his performance levels off, when you know what you actually have, not when he's still improving by leaps and bounds.

And before we start the Dame and C.J. can't coexist talk (for the billionth time), answer me this: How well did they coexists from Christmas 2015 through the end of the regular season last year when the team won at a 53-win pace, and how well did they coexist in the playoffs when the team advanced to the 2nd round and played the 73-win defending champions to a near standstill?

Before we go down that well worn path yet again, let's just see how well they coexist in Stotts' new defensive schemes. Better still, let's see how well they coexist when they are paired with at least one elite defensive front court player (paging Mr. Noel, Mr. Nerlens Noel, please pick up the white courtesy phone...).

And, to suggest we should trade the ever improving C.J. McCollum because we have the highly overpaid and under-producing Allen Crabbe waiting to assume his role is just flat out insanity. I'm not even going to bother to post the same numbers for Crabbe. Feel free to look them up. His "improvement" is nowhere near as impressive. In fact, it kind of sucks. He had one decent year, a contract year no less, where his PER jumped from 8.7 to 12.2 (from shitty to meh). He got paid and he has regressed to the sub-10 PER player he's always been. He's a one-dimensional stand still shooter who can't create his own shot or create for others. He got paid and regressed. C.J. also got paid, but continues to improve at an impressive rate.

Trade C.J. McCollum? I think not!

BNM

 

[Minstrel]

If this is how Embiid and Noel fit together, good luck getting him out of Philadelphia:

 

[Boob-No-More]

If this is how Embiid and Noel fit together, good luck getting him out of Philadelphia:

You still force Noel to play out of position at PF on defense. He can handle it, but it doesn't make maximum use of his biggest strength. With Embiiid having 3-point range they coexist fine on offense and at the end of the day Embiid + Noel >>>>>>> Embiid + Okafor.

Fuck it!

BNM

 

[Minstrel]

You still force Noel to play out of position at PF on defense. He can handle it, but it doesn't make maximum use of his biggest strength.

That's true, but it's a bit like having two great centerfielders and playing one in right. On some level, you might feel like it's a bit of a waste--on the other hand, having two guys with great range is a nice dynamic to have, even if right fielders don't generally need as much range as centerfielders.

Maybe you play Noel closer to the rim and unleash Embiid as an all-court destroyer. Noel can jump out and defend on the perimeter, but he's probably better served being the last line of defense and letting Embiid roam more. I think Philadelphia will ultimately realize that you build around a Simmons/Noel/Embiid front line and look to trade Okafor before his value totally tanks.

 

[Boob-No-More]

That's true, but it's a bit like having two great centerfielders and playing one in right. On some level, you might feel like it's a bit of a waste--on the other hand, having two guys with great range is a nice dynamic to have, even if right fielders don't generally need as much range as centerfielders.

Maybe you play Noel closer to the rim and unleash Embiid as an all-court destroyer. Noel can jump out and defend on the perimeter, but he's probably better served being the last line of defense and letting Embiid roam more. I think Philadelphia will ultimately realize that you build around a Simmons/Noel/Embiid front line and look to trade Okafor before his value totally tanks.

This was my biggest fear and why I wanted to get Noel ASAP. I liked the situation much better when Bryan Colangelo was butt hurt and jerking Noel around for calling the situation silly. I want that Bryan Colangelo back until at least the 15th. So fucking close!

BNM

 

[BigGameDamian]

Looks like BLOOZERS strike out again.

 

[KeepOnRollin]

Looks like BLOOZERS strike out again.

The french clothing company? You would probably like this: https://www.instagram.com/bloozers/?hl=en

 

[Cippy91]

I want Nerlens so bad on this team. AYE PHILLY WANNA GIVE US ONE OF YOUR FRONTCOURT PLAYERS, NERLENS ABOVE ALL PLEASE

 

[BigGameDamian]

If Philly is smart they will keep Noal, Embiid and Simmons together.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

You guys need to wake up from that dream.

Rasheedfan2005 has a better chance of spending the night naked with Jessica Alba than the Blazers have of trading Crabbe & scraps for Noel.

I can just hear what Rasheedfan is thinking right now...."You mean I have a chance??? Sweet!!!"

 

[dviss1]

If Philly is smart they will keep Noal, Embiid and Simmons together.

I'm convinced that you do this on purpose.

 

[Cippy91]

If Philly is smart they will keep Noal, Embiid and Simmons together.

Luckily they aren't very smart. Neil could make this happen but are the rumors true and he actually doesn't want it to happen and would rather ride this season out? we can get Nerlens I am sure. We need this dude for seasons to come. He is the answer to our issues right now.