Zombie Trading CJ

[Natebishop3]

Between CJ and Dame, who is the better point guard?

I think Dame is the superior point guard. I think CJ is clearly a shooting guard, which makes him expendable because I do not think CJ is a long term fit at point.

 

[julius]

CJ should be the 6th man, ala Jason Terry.

Depends on who they draft I guess.

 

[Natebishop3]

CJ should be the 6th man, ala Jason Terry.

Depends on who they draft I guess.

I agree with whoever said that we might be past the point of relegating CJ to the bench.

 

[Pinwheel1]

And CJ is pretty bad? Based on...?

Still waiting on that answer. I also keep waiting for shooting guards to abuse CJ because of his height, taking him into the paint and scoring over him at will. Or even shooting over him on the perimeter. And most games what I see is CJ with his short little wing span taking bigger players into the paint and scoring at will, or stopping on a dime and hitting a mid range shot.

I agree that a player's wing span is important, but the court is 94' long and 50' wide. A player's quickness, change of speed, various moves are also huge factors. Was Wes a decent defender? I think he was yet there were plenty of games that a SG went off on him
and had a big game. You can say that about most players.

I think a few of you are looking for MJ to walk through through the door. Most players who are really good scorers are not really good defenders. Not for 35 minutes a game. CJ is not a great defender, but watching him closely this season, I just don't think he is "pretty bad".

A back court of Dame and CJ has the potential to be extremely potent for many years. Regardless if CJ starts or comes of the bench, both he and Dame will still be playing around 33-35 minutes a game. Chemistry on the court and off the court is also important, and they seem to have it. I would build around them.

 

[illmatic99]

CJ should be the 6th man, ala Jason Terry.

Depends on who they draft I guess.

Really dislike this narrative. Having CJ and Dame on the floor at the same time is a matchup advantage we have to exploit, not minimize. Just because it's different from conventional lineups seen throughout the league doesn't mean we have to follow what'sbeen done before.

These are two guys that defenses can't guard with single coverage. Having to double team two perimeter players opens up a massive advantage inside. We have no semblance of post players yet to take advantage. Wait until that happens.

The deficiencies on defense can easily be covered up by better schemes, a versatile SF and a rim protector. Perhaps we shoud try to find those guys instead of trying to break apart the two legit NBA players we do have on the roster?

 

[B-Roy]

The thing CJ and Dame have trouble with is fighting through screens. In that sense, it would be nicer to have a longer and stronger player. But this is only a big issue because of the "ICE" defense that Portland runs. If our bigs hedged more on screens this wouldn't be as big of an issue. That will never happen under Terry's defense, but Terry might not be the coach in a few years.

Other than that, I haven't really seen CJ get abused by other defenders.

 

[B-Roy]

Really dislike this narrative. Having CJ and Dame on the floor at the same time is a matchup advantage we have to exploit, not minimize. Just because it's different from conventional lineups seen throughout the league doesn't mean we have to follow what'sbeen done before.

It's really funny, because before this year it was always "we need another playmaker alongside Dame to take the pressure off Dame. Wes and Nic can't create enough offense when other teams commit to doubling Dame on the perimeter".

Well, now we have that second playmaker, but we can't play him next to Dame because he's too short!

I think it's stupid. It's always going to be something, you're not going to be able to have your cake and eat it too. You work with what you have and maximize what you've got.

 

[Natebishop3]

The thing CJ and Dame have trouble with is fighting through screens. In that sense, it would be nicer to have a longer and stronger player. But this is only a big issue because of the "ICE" defense that Portland runs. If our bigs hedged more on screens this wouldn't be as big of an issue. That will never happen under Terry's defense, but Terry might not be the coach in a few years.

Other than that, I haven't really seen CJ get abused by other defenders.

I wish we had Kerr... but maybe Luke Walton would work?

 

[illmatic99]

Exactly. I'd like to see Jason Terry do what CJ is able to do. (Even from ATL days).

 

[handiman]

So you used irony in a way to agree with one post while indirectly disagreeing with another post all in the same sentence. Haha

Huh? The irony was that at any other point in Lillard's career, your comment about him being healthy would have been an ironclad point.

It's a tough question to ask, because there's no way the Blazers win politically by trading Dame. But Olshey traded both his backcourt guys for stars a few years back, so it's not like it hasn't been done.

I totally agree that the general public would be a tough sell, but I don't get the emotional attachment by diehard Blazer fans here.

Height/length/strength/stamina has little to nothing to do with CJ/Dame's defensive shortcomings, no pun intended. Their glaring weakness is that neither can move his feet well enough to keep his guy in front of him. Hardly anyone posts up these days, it's all drive and kick. Our defense is easy to crack because any perimeter player can get to the hoop at will. You can cover for one such player, not two.

 

[Natebishop3]

Exactly. I'd like to see Jason Terry do what CJ is able to do. (Even from ATL days).

Terry measured at 6'1.5" in the predraft measurements, and pretty skinny. CJ strikes me as much stronger and longer than Terry, but I couldn't find the complete pre-draft measurements for Terry.

 

[B-Roy]

Huh? The irony was that at any other point in Lillard's career, your comment about him being healthy would have been an ironclad point.



I totally agree that the general public would be a tough sell, but I don't get the emotional attachment by diehard Blazer fans here.

Height/length/strength/stamina has little to nothing to do with CJ/Dame's defensive shortcomings, no pun intended. Their glaring weakness is that neither can move his feet well enough to keep his guy in front of him. Hardly anyone posts up these days, it's all drive and kick. Our defense is easy to crack because any perimeter player can get to the hoop at will. You can cover for one such player, not two.

That is WAY more as a result of our "ICE" defensive scheme.

 

[handiman]

That is WAY more as a result of our "ICE" defensive scheme.

Possibly, but we have no way of unraveling the two factors at this point in time.

 

[B-Roy]

Possibly, but we have no way of unraveling the two factors at this point in time.

So the solution is to trade one of our best players before trying to fix the issue?

 

[0-Our!]

So the solution is to trade one of our best players before trying to fix the issue?

That's just it, u can't fix CJ's defense from him doing anything (there's nothing more he can do here, he'll be forever limited); if u want to "fix the issue," u have 2 choices (in our case): 1) u trade CJ (because he won't accept a bench role again) for a guy who has/can do what CJ can't or 2) u trade away as many guyS/assetS as it takes to SUBSTANTIALLY improve the interior defense (while maintaining some stretch 4/scoring ability) so that the average @ best defense (u don't get this every game) that is exploited won't b/will b much less a factor to the point where u CAN win many more games vs. lose. So logically & most achievable is to trade CJ bc u give up the least amount of assets & disrupt the flow the least bringing in 1 guy vs. several.

 

[Natebishop3]

So the solution is to trade one of our best players before trying to fix the issue?

The wildcard is Crabbe though. He is the prototypical NBA shooting guard, and he is starting to come into his own. If he keeps growing, he could be a max guy. Can you see us rolling with three max guards?

I am of the opinion that we should cash in one of our guards for another, equally valuable asset. We have A LOT of young talent right now, and some of that talent overlaps. If we could get a legit second star to go with Dame, that would be a huge move for us.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Philly seems like a good trading partner.

Especially with Colangelo showing his hand a bit and willing to stray from Hinkie's path.

The player I'd poach is Dario Saric. But unfortunately we aren't in position to do this - he may or may not come over next season. A super talent though. My favorite prospect in that draft.

Noel's upside doesn't come close to the hype he came in with. He may turn into a Tyson Chandler - in a few years. Right now he's Ed Davis who shoots sub-50%.

He sounds like a great talent. But i just don't think they will trade him. They call him every day and expect him next year.
And he wants to desperately come over this next year.

 

[handiman]

So the solution is to trade one of our best players before trying to fix the issue?

No, I'm saying we can only guess at which of the two is the actual cause. We have bad guard defenders and a bad defensive scheme for the guards. CJ and Dame's entire careers revolve around Stotts' defense, so we've got no evidence one way or the other to separate the causes.

 

[B-Roy]

That's just it, u can't fix CJ's defense from him doing anything (there's nothing more he can do here, he'll be forever limited); if u want to "fix the issue," u have 2 choices (in our case): 1) u trade CJ (because he won't accept a bench role again) for a guy who has/can do what CJ can't or 2) u trade away as many guyS/assetS as it takes to SUBSTANTIALLY improve the interior defense (while maintaining some stretch 4/scoring ability) so that the average @ best defense (u don't get this every game) that is exploited won't b/will b much less a factor to the point where u CAN win many more games vs. lose. So logically & most achievable is to trade CJ bc u give up the least amount of assets & disrupt the flow the least bringing in 1 guy vs. several.

I don't think you understand. The main issue with the Blazers allowing penetration is our defensive scheme. Guards are allowed to turn the corner on the pick and roll by design. CJ and Dame are not particularly great at getting around picks, but they look worse than they are because the Blazers allow guys like Paul or Bledsoe to see the whole floor without consequence. It's also why guys like Udrih/Irving/Dragic always kill us because they get free pull up mid-range jump shots. The solution is to just hedge the picks with our big man on players that have more of an ability to break down the defense. The Clippers routinely help Chris Paul (who is also small, and doesn't get around picks well) by hedging with DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffin, I don't understand why Terry is insistent on using the same defensive scheme against every team.

Stopping penetration 1 on 1 has not really been much of an issue, at least to my eyes. The problem is always the pick and roll. There aren't enough guards in the league that are actually good at recovering over screens (think Klay/Butler/George), and the good ones aren't available anyhow.

 

[B-Roy]

No, I'm saying we can only guess at which of the two is the actual cause. We have bad guard defenders and a bad defensive scheme for the guards. CJ and Dame's entire careers revolve around Stotts' defense, so we've got no evidence one way or the other to separate the causes.

I understand that, but I am of the opinion that you should change the scheme before changing the (good) player.

 

[0-Our!]

... length/strength/stamina has little to nothing to do with CJ/Dame's defensive shortcomings... Their glaring weakness is that neither can move his feet well enough to keep his guy in front of him... Our defense is easy to crack because any perimeter player can get to the hoop at will...

? IF CJ had length/strength/stamina to not ONLY score BUT ALSO WAS gifted w/ length + strength + stamina (+ speed)... he'd BE a great defender (IF he wasn't THEN it'd b ALL mental; he has it in his mind now/capable of more w/ his mind on D but his body will never allow him to become what he needs to on D to help us @ SG; even though he's PG size & IF he guarded ONLY PG's, he'll never be good enough for what we need even there)... none of us would want to trade CJ/be having these conversations.

Quoting u ^ "Their glaring weakness is that...," again, IF CJ had length..., he & Dame (much more CJ vs. Dame, I believe Dame CAN become good enough for us + w/ Dame, it's not JUST all about defense w/ him, he IS our/a leader; trade Dame & CJ wouldn't/couldn't b the leader Dame is) would b able to move/stay in front of their guys & ppl wouldn't be getting to hoop @ will.

 

[B-Roy]

The wildcard is Crabbe though. He is the prototypical NBA shooting guard, and he is starting to come into his own. If he keeps growing, he could be a max guy. Can you see us rolling with three max guards?

I am of the opinion that we should cash in one of our guards for another, equally valuable asset. We have A LOT of young talent right now, and some of that talent overlaps. If we could get a legit second star to go with Dame, that would be a huge move for us.

CJ could be that second star. Maybe not. Of course if you can get a Paul George or a Jimmy Butler you hands down go for it. Barring any of those types of deals (and let's be honest, it's REALLY unlikely), I don't think it makes sense to trade CJ. I just don't agree with the people trying to pidgeonhole CJ into a 6th man role, or wanting to trade him for the sake of it.

And Crabbe as a max player, come on now. He would have to be the best 3&D player in the league to be a max player. He's definitely made strides, but his defensive abilities (and stats) are overrated, and he's not really a knockdown shooter.

 

[Natebishop3]

CJ could be that second star. Maybe not. Of course if you can get a Paul George or a Jimmy Butler you hands down go for it. Barring any of those types of deals (and let's be honest, it's REALLY unlikely), I don't think it makes sense to trade CJ. I just don't agree with the people trying to pidgeonhole CJ into a 6th man role, or wanting to trade him for the sake of it.

And Crabbe as a max player, come on now. He would have to be the best 3&D player in the league to be a max player. He's definitely made strides, but his defensive abilities (and stats) are overrated, and he's not really a knockdown shooter.

If Wes Matthews is a max player, I think Crabbe could one day be a max player.

 

[0-Our!]

I don't think you understand. The main issue with the Blazers allowing penetration is our defensive scheme. Guards are allowed to turn the corner on the pick and roll by design. CJ and Dame are not particularly great at getting around picks, but they look worse than they are because the Blazers allow guys like Paul or Bledsoe to see the whole floor without consequence. It's also why guys like Udrih/Irving/Dragic always kill us because they get free pull up mid-range jump shots. The solution is to just hedge the picks with our big man on players that have more of an ability to break down the defense. The Clippers routinely help Chris Paul (who is also small, and doesn't get around picks well) by hedging with DeAndre Jordan and Blake Griffin, I don't understand why Terry is insistent on using the same defensive scheme against every team.

Stopping penetration 1 on 1 has not really been much of an issue, at least to my eyes. The problem is always the pick and roll. There aren't enough guards in the league that are actually good at recovering over screens (think Klay/Butler/George), and the good ones aren't available anyhow.

Certainly, u make some good points that I agree w/. I'll just say really quick, I'd love a 1 on 1 stopper but I'd be completely happy w/ an SG (preferably a SG/SF) that can fit in the team defensive scheme to work well w/ the team (NOT putting too much work on the front court positions almost alone) to give us a great team defender, a defensive synergy scenario would b peachy!

 

[0-Our!]

If Wes Matthews is a max player, I think Crabbe could one day be a max player.

I don't think max but a very good contract that he/nobody would scoff @

 

[B-Roy]

If Wes Matthews is a max player, I think Crabbe could one day be a max player.

Wes Matthews is not a max player, and was paid out of necessity. But even looking past that fact, Matthews proved his worth in over 6 seasons of solid play. Crabbe will have 1 after this season, IF he keeps it up, and he will be a free agent. I made a thread awhile ago that said I would not be surprised if he got a ~10 million deal under the new cap (which would be similar to what someone like Jae Crowder got from Boston), but max? Let's be serious.

 

[Natebishop3]

I've been looking around and from what I can tell, Crabbe is a free agent this summer. Not sure if he's an RFA. If that's true, he could get a very nice offer from another team with all the money that's going to be flying around this summer.

 

[B-Roy]

I've been looking around and from what I can tell, Crabbe is a free agent this summer. Not sure if he's an RFA. If that's true, he could get a very nice offer from another team with all the money that's going to be flying around this summer.

Yes he is a free agent, but you have got to be the ballsiest (and stupidest) GM in the world to offer a max (which would be 16M+ for Crabbe) deal for a guy that only has one season of Solid play under his belt.

Either that, or you can literally see the future and Crabbe turns into Reggie Miller.

 

[Natebishop3]

Yes he is a free agent, but you have got to be the ballsiest (and stupidest) GM in the world to offer a max (which would be 16M+ for Crabbe) deal for a guy that only has one season of Solid play under his belt.

Either that, or you can literally see the future and Crabbe turns into Reggie Miller.

People do stupid things when they have money to burn. The lack of shooting guards in the league right now and the fact that he's young and can shoot the ball could bring a nice payday for him. Maybe not max, but I think possibly more than 10 million per year.

 

[BonesJones]

If Crabbes really that valuable then I wonder what we can get for him.

Just for reference, Dame's wingspan and standing reach measurements were 6'7.75 & 7'11.5 while CJ's were 6'6.25 & 8'0.5... he's PG sized

STOMP

Dames a big PG. And CJs bigger than him..