Ugh. Who was responsible for letting James Jones go? (1 Viewer)

[BrianFromWA]

No it doesn't. One single game does not 3 years of sucktitude rectify.

 

[Boob-No-More]

We didn't get James Jones directly in the Randolph deal.

We used the trade exception we got from NY in ths Zach deal to land James Jones. They were considered two separate transactions, but we got the trade exception from NY and used it to get Jones from Phoenix. Without the Zach trade, no James Jones to Portland.

Furthermore, can't I complain about losing a player we got after trading ZBo?? That makes it worse. We lost BOTH! One and then the other!

Sure, you can (and do) camplaing about anything you wish. I never said you couldn't. Since when have you ever needed my permission? And, I wasn't addressing you specifically. I just find it ironic that many posters go on and on about how we got NOTHING for Zach and then also moan obout our current lack of good three point shooters. Fact is we got TWO excellent 3-point shooters for Zach. That may not have been equal value, but it was more than "nothing". Letting them both walk only compounded the error.

Still, the first year after the trade we looked like we didn't get totally hosed. Zach had a down year in NY (his PER dropped by almost 5 points), Channing Frye and James Jones were both very productive bench players. Channing also played very well late in the season as our starting center after Joel broke his hand. James Jones was lights out from 3-point range. He finished the season at 0.444 3FG% and 0.625 TS%. And, we also got the rights to Rudy Fernandez from Phoenix in the James Jones deal. And although he's not the same player he was as a rookie, Rudy was yet (at least his rookie year) another good 3-point shooter we got as a result of the Zach trade.

I'm not claiming we go fair value, but at the time the trade wasn't as lopsided as it now appears. The Zach we traded also isn't the same Zach that is now playing for Memphis. Zach's shot selection has improved greatly, and as a result, so have his shooting percentages. He is also rebounding even better than he did in Portland. Yeah, he's cleaned up the off court problems, but he's also improved substantially on the court (after two down years with the Knicks and Clippers). Compare these numbers from Zach's last (and best) season in Portland:

ORtg = 106
DRtg = 109
WS = 5.7
WS/48 = 0.112

To this season in Memphis:

ORtg = 115
DRtg = 105
WS = 10.5
WS/48 = 0.185

Zach was very immature, both on the court and off, when he was here. In hindsight, we gave up on him two early (so did the Knicks and Clippers). He was 25 when we traded him, and had two down seasons immediately after the trade. Now, at 29, in Memphis he has matured into a much better player. The basic skills haven't changed. He's just learned how to use them more effectively. He scores less, but is a more efficient scorer. He's rebounding at the highest rate of his career and led the league in ORB% this season (take THAT Kevin Love), and he's a key reason why Memphis led the league in points in the paint during the regular season and why they are doing so well in the post season.

Yep, it would be nice to have him back, but that's not going to happen. We're not getting Channing Frye, James Jones or the old Rudy back either.

So, what good 3-point shooters are going to be available this off season. It's too bad we couldn't have snagger Kyle Korver last summer. He's exactly the kind of consistent, clutch 3-point shooter this team needs - someone who can come in off the bench, spread the court and knock down big shots.

BNM

 

[jlprk]

I just find it ironic that many posters go on and on about how we got NOTHING for Zach and then also moan obout our current lack of good three point shooters. Fact is we got TWO excellent 3-point shooters for Zach. That may not have been equal value, but it was more than "nothing".

Like Stomp, you're being too literal. Loosen up. You know perfectly well that in English slang, "we got nothing" = "we got nothing lasting" = "we got nothing from the trade that is still here, since Rudy's value is currently low."

For example, if I say, "Boob's IQ is zero," I'm using slang. A precise scientist would say, "The upper limit of Boob's IQ is 2.4 on the Cattell Scale, and 1.8 on the Iowa Aptitude Test, allowing liberally for 3 standard deviations." In the give and take of daily discourse, you have to allow for tiny exaggerations.

Still, the first year after the trade we looked like we didn't get totally hosed. Zach had a down year in NY (his PER dropped by almost 5 points), Channing Frye and James Jones were both very productive bench players. Channing also played very well late in the season as our starting center after Joel broke his hand. James Jones was lights out from 3-point range. He finished the season at 0.444 3FG% and 0.625 TS%. And, we also got the rights to Rudy Fernandez from Phoenix in the James Jones deal. And although he's not the same player he was as a rookie, Rudy was yet (at least his rookie year) another good 3-point shooter we got as a result of the Zach trade. I'm not claiming we go fair value, but at the time the trade wasn't as lopsided as it now appears.

This is because our coach is Nate "Your First Year Here Will Be Your Best Year, Then You'll Learn My System" McMillan. It's a nickname his grandma gave him as a baby.

I'm not claiming we go fair value, but at the time the trade wasn't as lopsided as it now appears. The Zach we traded also isn't the same Zach that is now playing for Memphis. Zach's shot selection has improved greatly, and as a result, so have his shooting percentages. He is also rebounding even better than he did in Portland. Yeah, he's cleaned up the off court problems, but he's also improved substantially on the court (after two down years with the Knicks and Clippers). Compare these numbers from Zach's last (and best) season in Portland:

ORtg = 106
DRtg = 109
WS = 5.7
WS/48 = 0.112

To this season in Memphis:

ORtg = 115
DRtg = 105
WS = 10.5
WS/48 = 0.185

Zach was very immature, both on the court and off, when he was here. In hindsight, we gave up on him two early (so did the Knicks and Clippers). He was 25 when we traded him, and had two down seasons immediately after the trade. Now, at 29, in Memphis he has matured into a much better player. The basic skills haven't changed. He's just learned how to use them more effectively. He scores less, but is a more efficient scorer. He's rebounding at the highest rate of his career and led the league in ORB% this season (take THAT Kevin Love), and he's a key reason why Memphis led the league in points in the paint during the regular season and why they are doing so well in the post season.

Impossible. How could Zach have improved by escaping McMillan? Were any of his subsequent coaches, like ours, in the Top 23 in NBA, ABA, and BAA history combined?

http://sportstwo.com/threads/185540-11-years?p=2601439&viewfull=1#post2601439

Yep, it would be nice to have him back, but that's not going to happen. We're not getting Channing Frye, James Jones or the old Rudy back either. So, what good 3-point shooters are going to be available this off season. It's too bad we couldn't have snagger Kyle Korver last summer. He's exactly the kind of consistent, clutch 3-point shooter this team needs - someone who can come in off the bench, spread the court and knock down big shots.

Our bad shooting comes from the system of our 8-year coach. Korver would suck at dribbling around outside the paint, missing his shots because the opponent knows he's about to shoot. He'd go downhill like this.

http://sportstwo.com/threads/185540-11-years?p=2600419&viewfull=1#post2600419

 

[3RA1N1AC]

james jones was a key acquisition for me on my fantasy team one year, good times, he really was approaching cult status here with that great first half season

 

[KingSpeed]

No it doesn't. One single game does not 3 years of sucktitude rectify.

Bullshit. Do you thin Heat fans gave a fuck about James Jones' regular season PER when he won a playoff game for them? The playoffs are what it's about. Championship teams need role players like him. We could've used him ourselves. Did you care what Chris Johnson had done during the regular season when he was helping us win game 3 of the playoffs? I didn't. The playoffs are all that matters.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Bullshit. Do you thin Heat fans gave a fuck about James Jones' regular season PER when he won a playoff game for them? The playoffs are what it's about. Championship teams need role players like him. We could've used him ourselves. Did you care what Chris Johnson had done during the regular season when he was helping us win game 3 of the playoffs? I didn't. The playoffs are all that matters.

gotta agree with you on this one speedy, when edgar renteria hit that homerun for the giants to win the world series, 2 years and 18 million dollars looked like a bargain, and he was in the running for one of the worst players in baseball over that span.

 

[KingSpeed]

Thanks. I do want to be clear, though. I'm not rooting for the Heat. I hope the Celtics beat them in 5.

 

[BrianFromWA]

Bullshit. Do you thin Heat fans gave a fuck about James Jones' regular season PER when he won a playoff game for them? The playoffs are what it's about. Championship teams need role players like him. We could've used him ourselves. Did you care what Chris Johnson had done during the regular season when he was helping us win game 3 of the playoffs? I didn't. The playoffs are all that matters.

Tell me again how much Jones helped them in last year's first round? Or how about in 2008-09, when he couldn't miss and led the world in ORtg but lost the series? Are you going to tell me that Gary Neal's a better player than Manu and Parker combined, stats be damned, b/c he made the shot to put them into OT? Or that you'd rather have D-Fish than CP3 b/c CP3's never made a shot with 0.4 seconds left? Or that we should've traded LMA for the rights to Dejuan Blair b/c Blair went to the 2nd round last year?

Championship teams don't get to be championship teams relying on subpar role players. They rely on superstars, and if the "role players" get some crumbs then good for them. Which "role player" of the L*kers, Celtics or Heat have made a difference in the last 5 years? Are you going to tell me we should've picked up Big Baby b/c he made a few 15-footers? Brian Scalabrine? I know, Kendrick Perkins was MVP of the 2010 Finals. Unfortunately, the team stocked with Durant and Westbrook and using Perk as a "role player" just got beat by Z-bo in a one-game sample. Do the Thunder fans ditch Westbrook b/c he "lost a playoff game for them? The playoffs are what it's about!"

 

[KingSpeed]

Boston wouldn't have won in 08 without James Posey.

 

[KingSpeed]

And I never said James Jones or James Posey was better than the stars on their teams. You don't watch much basketball if you think the role players make no difference. The Bulls don't win in 93 without Paxson's shot in Game 6. And they don't win in 97 without Steve Kerr's shot in Game 6. 2000-02 Lakers don't win without Robert Horry. Spurs won their titles because, in order, the following people hit wide open threes down the stretch: Sean Elliott, Jaren Jackson, Stephen Jackson, Steve Kerr, Robert Horry, and Bruce Bowen.

In the playoffs, the defense gears in on the stars. "Role players" are left open. And you can't win championships if you don't have "role players" who can hit those shots.

We didn't have a role player who could hit those shots so we lost the series.

Of course, the stars are important, but if Jordan didn't have Kerr and Paxson knocking down wide open shots, he wouldn't have won a single title.

 

[KingSpeed]

And as Gary Neal:no, he is not the best player on the Spurs, but without him hitting that shot, there would've been no Game 6. You made my point PERFECTLY. Doesn't matter how good your stars if the guys who are WIDE OPEN when the stars are being triple teamed don't hit their shots.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I grant the point, but he didn't play out of his mind. He played at his consistent (regular season AND playoff) level, which for 5 years or so had basically been a poor man's Battier, with defense as his strong suit. If he'd been putting up PERs of 8 the entire time, he would've been sitting there next to Scot Pollard and Gabe Pruitt, watching Tony Allen take his moment in the sun.

 

[KingSpeed]

Which "role player" of the L*kers, Celtics or Heat have made a difference in the last 5 years?

Easy.

Derek Fisher (Lakers)- hit the game tying and game winning shot in Game 4 of the 2009 NBA Finals and took over the offense in the 4th quarter of Game 3 of the 2010 NBA Finals

PJ Brown (Celtics)- Hit the dagger that held off the Cavs in Game 7

Shrek & Donkey (Celtics)- Nate Robinson and Big Baby dominated Game 4 of the 2010 NBA Finals

Gary Payton (Heat)- Off the bench, Gary Payton hit the game winning shot that gave the Heat their first win in the 2006 NBA Finals (game 3)

 

[KingSpeed]

I grant the point, but he didn't play out of his mind. He played at his consistent (regular season AND playoff) level, which for 5 years or so had basically been a poor man's Battier, with defense as his strong suit. If he'd been putting up PERs of 8 the entire time, he would've been sitting there next to Scot Pollard and Gabe Pruitt, watching Tony Allen take his moment in the sun.

Funny you mention Battier. Battier hit the go ahead three pointer for the Grizzlies to beat the Spurs in Game 1. Grizzlies don't win that game without that shot.

But you know all this. Thanks.

 

[huevonkiller]

James Jones is alright, he looks better because the other backups are trash.

Mike Miller's thumbs are messed up now.

 

[KingSpeed]

I hope he plays bad the rest of the way (hate the Heat) but it is undeniable that they couldn't have won game 1 without him.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

checkmate

 

[huevonkiller]

I picked the Heat in 5 before the series started. So Heat in 6 or 7 if James Jones wasn't there, I'm still good either way. :]

I think the Heat are pretty terrible in depth, so they do need at least his 5 or 9 points a game.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

the heat suck ass, bunch of spoiled crybaby assholes

 

[huevonkiller]

Nah man.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

totally dude, lebron should have just joined the lakers if he wanted a ring so bad

 

[huevonkiller]

Damn you should bet a lot of money on the Lakers then, since you're so sure. Put up your house or something, that would be cool.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

lol, actully i got memphis at 50-1 odds to take it all