Unarmed South Florida man with hands up shot by police while calming autistic patient

[Denny Crane]

So.....take it out of the budget that also supplies their firearms training......which they clearly need?

Explain that one to me.

It doesn't make sense to punish the department for the actions of one dumbass. The likelihood of them needing those firearms to perform their duties and to defend themselves far outweigh the risk that they will either be abused or mishandled by negligence or incompetence.

No, take it out of the guns budget. They can do without a few tanks and bazookas.

 

[Jade Falcon]

No, take it out of the guns budget. They can do without a few tanks and bazookas.

Tanks and bazookas. Oh yeah....lots of cops wandering around with RPGs, huh?

Come on man. Not every department is some militarized army.

 

[Denny Crane]

Tanks and bazookas. Oh yeah....lots of cops wandering around with RPGs, huh?

Come on man. Not every department is some militarized army.

All but the smallest towns are. It used to be S.W.A.T. was only for a big city like L.A. Now most every town has them.

 

[Denny Crane]

Chalk one up for Obama.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-taken-from-officers-in-wake-obama-order.html

Outrage as military vehicles, equipment taken from officers in wake of Obama order

Valuable vehicles and equipment are being yanked from law enforcement agencies across the country by the Obama administration in the wake of the president’s post-Ferguson order -- as sheriffs and lawmakers tell FoxNews.com the equipment is needed, and losing it could put officers and the communities they serve in danger.

 

[Jade Falcon]

All but the smallest towns are. It used to be S.W.A.T. was only for a big city like L.A. Now most every town has them.

We'll agree to disagree. Don't really feel like arguing this at 8 in the morning. No offense.

Chalk one up for Obama.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-taken-from-officers-in-wake-obama-order.html

Outrage as military vehicles, equipment taken from officers in wake of Obama order

Valuable vehicles and equipment are being yanked from law enforcement agencies across the country by the Obama administration in the wake of the president’s post-Ferguson order -- as sheriffs and lawmakers tell FoxNews.com the equipment is needed, and losing it could put officers and the communities they serve in danger.

Obama can go fuck himself. Nothing that SJW race-baiter has done for this country has been good. And this is yet more government interference in the name of being PC.

And when the next failed Military washout goes nuts and kills more police officers in a mass shooting, they can just stick to their unarmored Crown Victorias I guess.

 

[Denny Crane]

You agree to disagree that the Fox News article supports what I said?

Military vehicles and equipment taken from law enforcement across the country.

Excess military equipment was given to the police for free, under the 1033 program instituted by Bill Clinton in the 1990s. The police are militarized and it's a scary thing in America. It makes us occupied, basically. It changes the attitudes of the police that they're military instead of civilians to serve and protect. The rules of engagement are radically different between military and police. But the police are acting like military and the people are resisting.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...agencies-surplus-military-equipment/10286485/

A growing number of law enforcement agencies are taking advantage of a program that gives them free surplus military equipment left over from U.S. military campaigns in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

The Department of Defense's 1033 program, which Congress passed in 1997 to expand on a 1991 initiative, initially aimed to give surplus military equipment for police use in counter-narcotic and counter-terrorism situations.

Now, with the government giving away thousands of Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles, weapons and more pedestrian items such as cars and clothing, even smaller police departments in cities and towns with low crime rates are acquiring items.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Shooting explained! It was all just an accident.

They meant to shoot the autistic guy with the toy truck.

Whew, I feel better now that it's explained.



"This wasn't a mistake in the sense that the officer shot the wrong guy or he thought that Kinsey was the bad guy," he said in a press conference Thursday.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/21/us/miami-officer-involved-shooting/index.html

 

[Jade Falcon]

You agree to disagree that the Fox News article supports what I said?

Military vehicles and equipment taken from law enforcement across the country.

Excess military equipment was given to the police for free, under the 1033 program instituted by Bill Clinton in the 1990s. The police are militarized and it's a scary thing in America. It makes us occupied, basically. It changes the attitudes of the police that they're military instead of civilians to serve and protect. The rules of engagement are radically different between military and police. But the police are acting like military and the people are resisting.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...agencies-surplus-military-equipment/10286485/

A growing number of law enforcement agencies are taking advantage of a program that gives them free surplus military equipment left over from U.S. military campaigns in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.

The Department of Defense's 1033 program, which Congress passed in 1997 to expand on a 1991 initiative, initially aimed to give surplus military equipment for police use in counter-narcotic and counter-terrorism situations.

Now, with the government giving away thousands of Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles, weapons and more pedestrian items such as cars and clothing, even smaller police departments in cities and towns with low crime rates are acquiring items.

Let's be real here. I have NEVER seen a regular beat officer just driving around in a 10-ton armored vehicle for regular patrols. Never. They are specialized equipment for specialized roles/problems/tasks, and it takes a DANGEROUS situation for them to be deployed. Whether that's an armed man holed up in a house, or whether that's an active shooter in the middle of a city, like Dallas. In many cases, police employ those vehicles as a show of force towards the criminal element or suspects in question. The message is clear: you aren't going to win this, so surrender peacefully and comply. And most of the time, it works.

I think that the whole "militarized police" argument is blown grossly out of proportion. So besides MRAPs, what are other examples of "militarized police"? In the way they handle a suspect? Boo hoo...they're suspects for a reason. In the vests they wear? Bullshit; those things are VERY handy for a cop. I wore tactical suspenders as an armed officer for a security company, and they were greatly welcomed.

Most military work demands compliance, and police work is rarely different in that regard. And our police DON'T treat most people as if they're enemy soldiers in Afghanistan, and there's a huge difference from treating everyone as a potential enemy in a war zone, and asking for your license during a traffic stop.

What kind of society do you think we would have if criminals saw our police forces as weak? Have you seen what a weak police force is like in Mexico?

Obviously, no, we're not living in a war zone. But when the dangerous situation arises (and we've clearly seen these past two weeks that they can happen), what kind of officer do you want responding? The traffic warden on the corner in white gloves, or the guy who shows up with the proper equipment ready for a fight?

I know which one I'd rather have on my team.

And let's remember that the history of police work has evolved into these tactics and heavy equipment usage for a reason. As society continues to evolve, unfortunately so does the criminal element, as well as criminal tactics and violence. To expect police to, say, go back to the revolver days of the 1980s is just plain ridiculous.

I don't want the police to be less prepared to do their jobs. And, in my opinion, the government taking away a tool is one less tool that they have to keep them safe in a dangerous situation. I want them to show up, ready for action. They just need to have good communication, order, and calmness under pressure when they do.

Now, I think a better argument here other than "demilitarize the police" should be "How can we improve communication between the public and police officers?" Because better communication will drastically cut down on the number of times those heavy tactics will have to be employed.

 

[Denny Crane]

Specialized roles or not, Mayberry doesn't need tanks and machine guns. The militarization goes beyond what the beat cops do, in your mind. They are part of a military organization and the attitude is pervasive.

I've seen enough SD police deal with homeless people. They don't need guns to subdue them. A little martial arts and the homeless guy is on the ground, fully compliant.

If I want you dead, I'd call the cops and say I saw you with a gun. The cops will come, guns drawn, and they'll shoot you because of the cell phone in your hand.

 

[Jade Falcon]

Shooting explained! It was all just an accident.

They meant to shoot the autistic guy with the toy truck.

Whew, I feel better now that it's explained.



"This wasn't a mistake in the sense that the officer shot the wrong guy or he thought that Kinsey was the bad guy," he said in a press conference Thursday.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/21/us/miami-officer-involved-shooting/index.html

The officer had intended to shoot the patient, whom he thought posed a danger, but accidentally shot the caregiver instead, said John Rivera, the President of the Dade County Police Benevolent Association.

Sigh. Like I said earlier: a proper leader would have taken proper control of this situation, and this would never have happened. You're going to shoot a suspect who you can't properly identify whether or not they have a gun?

I've seen enough SD police deal with homeless people. They don't need guns to subdue them. A little martial arts and the homeless guy is on the ground, fully compliant.

That works great in the movies. Not real life. Not everyone is some drunk homeless bum with a wasted body.

If I want you dead, I'd call the cops and say I saw you with a gun. The cops will come, guns drawn, and they'll shoot you because of the cell phone in your hand.

Please do. I guarantee you I'll walk away unharmed.

 

[Denny Crane]

That works great in the movies. Not real life. Not everyone is some drunk homeless bum with a wasted body.

Not in the movies, in real life. I see it daily here. The cops get the homeless in a kind of arm lock and they go straight to their knees.

These people are drunk, stoned, insane, have a raw deal in life, etc. They are exactly the kind of people who commit the bigger crimes. They also commit petty crimes like stealing food at the grocery stores (shame on them, not!), and stealing from any garage with an open door.

 

[Jade Falcon]

Not in the movies, in real life. I see it daily here. The cops get the homeless in a kind of arm lock and they go straight to their knees.

These people are drunk, stoned, insane, have a raw deal in life, etc. They are exactly the kind of people who commit the bigger crimes. They also commit petty crimes like stealing food at the grocery stores (shame on them, not!), and stealing from any garage with an open door.

And yet....the 8 officers killed recently were NOT killed by homeless people. They were killed by highly-trained former soldiers.

An arm-bar technique does not make a person a karate expert. I know several, but I'm not going up against someone with a Black Belt (or any color belt for that matter). And they are very limited in their use, and their being employed successfully depend on many factors that are impossible to predict. But hey...I have the luxury of being able to avoid problem situations in the first place. Cops don't.

And stealing is STEALING. What the fuck does it matter if it's a piece of fruit or a TV from an open garage?

 

[Denny Crane]

And yet, whatever they're doing ain't working. In fact, it seems to be making things worse and worse.

Crime isn't going down, it has gone up significantly since the Iraq war surplus equipment was distributed.

So that begs the question of why should we double down on what's failing?

 

[Nikolokolus]

I'm always fascinated with the way the authoritarian mind works. Any abuse, any over-reach, any tactic is excused or defended in the name of "Law and Order." I shouldn't be anymore, but I'm still amazed how cheaply some people hold the civil rights of others.

 

[Nikolokolus]

http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...gun-crime-are-both-dropping-charles-c-w-cooke

Clearly we need more SWAT teams to combat the never-ending rise in the rate of violent crime ...

 

[Denny Crane]

http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...gun-crime-are-both-dropping-charles-c-w-cooke

Clearly we need more SWAT teams to combat the never-ending rise in the rate of violent crime ...

From your link.



It's still on the rise. It had been decreasing for decades prior.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...s-increased-last-year/?utm_term=.5bb42f3d73b0
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/14/us/murder-rates-cities-fbi.html?_r=0

http://www.wsj.com/articles/trying-to-hide-the-rise-of-violent-crime-1451066997
http://time.com/4329688/murder-rate-u-s-cities-increase-2016/

Not disagreeing with you.

 

[rasheedfan2005]

lol, I hear ya bro. Thanks for the hard work you've done for our community.

meh. i look at what i do and think it isnt anything compared to the guys overseas. while the gap may be closing, i havent been shot at yet, or had to watch for IEDs.

 

[rasheedfan2005]

Chalk one up for Obama.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-taken-from-officers-in-wake-obama-order.html

Outrage as military vehicles, equipment taken from officers in wake of Obama order

Valuable vehicles and equipment are being yanked from law enforcement agencies across the country by the Obama administration in the wake of the president’s post-Ferguson order -- as sheriffs and lawmakers tell FoxNews.com the equipment is needed, and losing it could put officers and the communities they serve in danger.

how many secret service SUV's were disposed of? oh... i guess whats good for the goose isnt good for the gander?

 

[rasheedfan2005]

Shooting explained! It was all just an accident.

They meant to shoot the autistic guy with the toy truck.

Whew, I feel better now that it's explained.



"This wasn't a mistake in the sense that the officer shot the wrong guy or he thought that Kinsey was the bad guy," he said in a press conference Thursday.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/21/us/miami-officer-involved-shooting/index.html

this is disturbing. cops should have better aim.

 

[rasheedfan2005]

Chalk one up for Obama.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-taken-from-officers-in-wake-obama-order.html

Outrage as military vehicles, equipment taken from officers in wake of Obama order

Valuable vehicles and equipment are being yanked from law enforcement agencies across the country by the Obama administration in the wake of the president’s post-Ferguson order -- as sheriffs and lawmakers tell FoxNews.com the equipment is needed, and losing it could put officers and the communities they serve in danger.

he's got to disarm the enemy for his civil war to gain ground. i remember predicting this 8 years ago, i just figured it would happen sooner.

it's funny when people in power take power away from others but dont give up any themselves. why does he need an RPG proof limo? criminals dont have RPGs here right?

 

[SlyPokerDog]

this is disturbing. cops should have better aim.

I think this proves that the cops aren't racist, the bullets are.

 

[Nikolokolus]

From your link.

View attachment 9629

It's still on the rise. It had been decreasing for decades prior.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...s-increased-last-year/?utm_term=.5bb42f3d73b0
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/14/us/murder-rates-cities-fbi.html?_r=0

http://www.wsj.com/articles/trying-to-hide-the-rise-of-violent-crime-1451066997
http://time.com/4329688/murder-rate-u-s-cities-increase-2016/

Not disagreeing with you.

A five-year, moving window average is probably a more appropriate way to look at that kind of statistic to reduce any "noise" in the running average, otherwise you can draw faulty conclusions about delta in your most recent observation.

 

[Denny Crane]

he's got to disarm the enemy for his civil war to gain ground. i remember predicting this 8 years ago, i just figured it would happen sooner.

it's funny when people in power take power away from others but dont give up any themselves. why does he need an RPG proof limo? criminals dont have RPGs here right?

 

[Denny Crane]

A five-year, moving window average is probably a more appropriate way to look at that kind of statistic to reduce any "noise" in the running average, otherwise you can draw faulty conclusions about delta in your most recent observation.

It's been 5 years of increases, year over year.

Your article had data up to 2011 (or 2012?) and it was rising then.

 

[BlazerWookee]

Were they shooting at the autistic guy and missed, hitting the other guy by mistake?

 

[Nikolokolus]

It's been 5 years of increases, year over year.

Your article had data up to 2011 (or 2012?) and it was rising then.

Fair enough.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Were they shooting at the autistic guy and missed, hitting the other guy by mistake?

Yes. So A) Not letting a healthcare professional do his job (most able to help defuse the situation) and then, B) Not competent enough with his firearm to hit what he was aiming at.

 

[Dougnsalem]

Specialized roles or not, Mayberry doesn't need tanks and machine guns.

Sigh. Like I said earlier: a proper leader would have taken proper control of this situation, and this would never have happened.

Both of you are right. And as I have preached for YEARS on other boards, the issue IS NOT a racial one either. So far this year, 537 HUMAN Americans (white, black, purple, straight, gay, whatever.....) have died due to an incident with the police. Don't get me wrong- my great grandfather was a Portland police office who died in the line of duty. I support the "good cops" 1000%. Our police HAVE become overmilitarized. That mindset easily goes with the equipment. One living American has died about every 7.7 hours this year. Gun controlled, or not, name another country like that....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2016/

While this is going on, the news has selectively covered what they want. They promote racial and LGBTQ issues, just to further unrest. "Stir the pot" for those viewing numbers, and to cause further chaos.... Pretty F'd up.

Being a self proclaimed "conspiracy theorist", let me ask you this..... Martial law has already been enacted in at least one city, due to shootings and rioting. What happens, if things spiral out of hand, and Ob*ma declares it for the whole country??? Answer- he stays in as president...

One note- please don't compare these shootings as military related. Sure, some were ex-military people, however, being a vet, I can tell you one thing- I swore an oath, like every other vet, to protect the Constitution. Not, for whoever is in office, and whatever agenda they are trying to promote. If shit hits the fan, our vets are the only ones that will save us....

 

[rasheedfan2005]

Both of you are right. And as I have preached for YEARS on other boards, the issue IS NOT a racial one either. So far this year, 537 HUMAN Americans (white, black, purple, straight, gay, whatever.....) have died due to an incident with the police. Don't get me wrong- my great grandfather was a Portland police office who died in the line of duty. I support the "good cops" 1000%. Our police HAVE become overmilitarized. That mindset easily goes with the equipment. One living American has died about every 7.7 hours this year. Gun controlled, or not, name another country like that....

While this is going on, the news has selectively covered what they want. They promote racial and LGBTQ issues, just to further unrest. "Stir the pot" for those viewing numbers, and to cause further chaos.... Pretty F'd up.

Being a self proclaimed "conspiracy theorist", let me ask you this..... Martial law has already been enacted in at least one city, due to shootings and rioting. What happens, if things spiral out of hand, and Ob*ma declares it for the whole country??? Answer- he stays in as president...

One note- please don't compare these shootings as military related. Sure, some were ex-military people, however, being a vet, I can tell you one thing- I swore an oath, like every other vet, to protect the Constitution. Not, for whoever is in office, and whatever agenda they are trying to promote. If shit hits the fan, our vets are the only ones that will save us....

Ive always said show appriciation for your local police and vets. If shit does hit the fan, you want them protecting YOU not blindly following orders against you.

Thankfully i think this move by obama is going to ensure many sheriffs side with the people and not the furor

 

[Denny Crane]

There are different rules of engagement for military and police. The police are supposed to serve and prevent deaths, not use excessive force. The military is about killing and breaking things.

The cops are using excessive force and they're killing more people than they need to. This guy being shot is one example, and the ones BLM protests are others. It's really outrageous by definition.

First rule of engagement is to show presence of the badge and uniform. Virtually everyone respects those and there's not much trouble. Gun out, behind a lamp post is the last rule, and only in the most dire of circumstances.