Unconventional tandems

[mook]

We're looking at going with a SG/SG tandem (Rudy/Roy) and a C/C tandem (Przybilla/Oden) tandem more this year.

Coach has talked about SG/SG, so that's a given.

I think C/C is bound to happen just because Joel is so much better than anything we've got at backup PF. Oden should foul less, so that'll mean Przybilla will have more minutes available to play one of them at the 4. Plus, if we can prove he works well playing beside Oden, it may make a lot more sense financially to re-sign him to a bigger contract. (Maybe you can't afford a big salary for Joel as a 15 mpg backup center, but you can afford to keep him as a 15 mpg backup center and a 15 mpg backup power forward.)

Got me thinking about other unconventional tandems in Blazers history. Zach Randolph/Rasheed Wallace started a little together at PF/C, and it really seemed to work when we did it. Kind of a shame we didn't have a chance to see if it'd work longer.

Bonzi/Smith played really well together, although you could argue it's not a huge stretch to play Smith at SF.

Bonzi/DA absolutely sucked. Some of that was just both guys sucking (particularly Anders) but a lot of it was that Bonzi just didn't have enough of a speed advantage to get around SF's. He was always a power guard.

Pippen was fairly often paired with a couple of SG's/SF's, while he was left to run the PG position. That worked well because it got Stoudamire off the court.

Stoudamire/Van Exel/McInnis/Telfair/Jack/foldingchair and a bunch of other shit-awful twin PG lineups were tried over the years. They all sucked. None of those guys were worth a damn, though, so it's hard to say if it's a fundamental flaw in the plan to run two PG's together. But I suspect so. You just don't see teams pull it off.

Seems like Blazer coaches have been less enthusiastic about unconventional pairings than many of us fans are. I remember wanting to see Sheed/Zach paired together and Pip/another SF paired together for a long time before it was tried.

Last year we really didn't see a ton of Oden/Pryz and Roy/Rudy. The Oden/Pryz combo didn't happen much at least partially because of so much foul trouble. Roy/Rudy is a little more puzzling--they seemed to make it work (65% win share) when Przybilla was playing center:
http://www.82games.com/0809/0809POR2.HTM

I'd really like to see Nate be more aggressive with these two unconventional tandems more.

 

[Eastoff]

could you imagine Rudy, Brandon, Martell, Joel, Greg. SG, SG, SG, C, C

 

[STOMP]

don't see C-C happening much. I'll site that it didn't happen last much last year, neither guards away from the basket particularly well, and neither has a J to spread the court with/bad spacing. With Yao down, it's not like they'll need to go big to match up vs teams... they'll already be bigger then most teams and will probably end up outrebounding the league even by a greater margin then they did last year.

STOMP

 

[Oden's Shrink]

Roy and Rudy and blake and Miller could both work at certain times during a game.

 

[barfo]

Got me thinking about other unconventional tandems in Blazers history. Zach Randolph/Rasheed Wallace started a little together at PF/C, and it really seemed to work when we did it. Kind of a shame we didn't have a chance to see if it'd work longer.

You forgot to mention the fabulous Zach/SAR pairing.

barfo

 

[mook]

You forgot to mention the fabulous Zach/SAR pairing.

barfo

Hmmm. How did I forget that one?








Oh, that's right--years of therapy.

 

[mook]

don't see C-C happening much. I'll site that it didn't happen last much last year, neither guards away from the basket particularly well, and neither has a J to spread the court with/bad spacing. With Yao down, it's not like they'll need to go big to match up vs teams... they'll already be bigger then most teams and will probably end up outrebounding the league even by a greater margin then they did last year.

STOMP

You can make the same argument about spreading the floor, though. With Roy, Rudy, Outlaw, Blake, Webster and Batum, you really won't see a lot of teams crowding the middle no matter who we have at PF and C.

Imagine you've got the ball in the post to Oden. Przybilla's man sags off him to crowd the middle--a soft double team. Oden kicks it out. Przybilla's got the space to set a nasty screen on some hapless guard. Guard is wiped out. Guy who is supposed to be covering Przyzbilla now has to scramble to the three point line. Fernandez catches. Three points.

It's really not that hard to imagine working. Especially with the number of shooters we have and the ability Przybilla has to set picks.

I definitely wouldn't recommend a twin tower lineup that also had Miller. Spacing would almost certainly suck there.

 

[oldmangrouch]

Twin tower attacks only seem to work when you have 2 guys who place tremendous pressure on the defense - eg Robinson/Duncan or Hakeem/Sampson.

I don't know *why* exactly, but that has been the history. Pryz and Oden will never fit that mold.

 

[mook]

Twin tower attacks only seem to work when you have 2 guys who place tremendous pressure on the defense - eg Robinson/Duncan or Hakeem/Sampson.

I don't know *why* exactly, but that has been the history. Pryz and Oden will never fit that mold.

For an entire game? Yeah, I agree.

But not necessarily true when you talk about a few minutes a night. Which is really all I'm talking about.

Say Aldridge logs 35 mpg at PF. For 13 minutes Aldridge isn't in the game. In that time slot you run Oden/Przybilla. And it's not going to be in one big block. 3 minutes at the end of the first quarter, 3 at the beginning of the next, 7 minutes in the third and none in the fourth.

I think that's the kind of gimmick that could sneak up on a lot of teams. By the time you adjust the offense to take advantage of the spacing issues, we've already subbed one of them out. Meantime, we've completely closed down the middle and rebounded every shot on both ends.

And keep in mind--these are all minutes when Miller will probably be on the bench and Blake will be out there launching threes with Rudy.

 

[mook]

Just to add to my point--look at the other options:

Use Outlaw or Pendergraph as the backup PF: Is that really likely to result in more desirable outcomes? Especially if Oden can play more minutes (say, 28 mpg). That means Przybilla gets just 20 mpg? I'd rather see Joel on the floor than either of those guys, spacing issues be damned.

 

[STOMP]

Just to add to my point--look at the other options:

Use Outlaw or Pendergraph as the backup PF: Is that really likely to result in more desirable outcomes? Especially if Oden can play more minutes (say, 28 mpg). That means Przybilla gets just 20 mpg? I'd rather see Joel on the floor than either of those guys, spacing issues be damned.

we'll just have to agree to disagree as I like Travis's perimeter game in general and expect him to log 25 MPG again this year. When he's at PF he drags an opposing Big out of the paint with him which helps out Blazer post play, opens driving lanes, and gives them more shots at long offensive rebounds. Geez that recent thread with all the youtube links detailed how much Blazers high post play is the hub of the offense and neither GO or Joel have shown that in their games. Keeping the court spread and the ball moving allows individuals to take advantage of the size advantages they have throughout their lineup.

Think about how few big bruising 4's that come off the bench. I'm sure Nate can recognize that both of his 5s are quality players and it's my opinion that Joel is a little better player then Travis overall, but on this team Travis's size/skills have supply and demand in his favor. The only way I can see your proposal taking root is if Greg's increased mobility is at the top end of our collective hopes... that he can effectively shadow a variety of guys outside the paint. Believe me I'd be excited about that development.

STOMP

 

[Eastoff]

i misread stomp.

 

[Eastoff]

Here's a silly one, but what about the possibility of Miller and Blake on the court together?

 

[Draco]

Here's a silly one, but what about the possibility of Miller and Blake on the court together?

We have a log-jam at SG with Rudy stuck behind Roy. Roy will probably be playing ~35mpg, that only leaves 13min for Rudy at the 2. I'm sure he'll get a couple at SF, but I don't think Blake will take any of the SG minutes. The only way I see Miller and Blake playing more than 5mpg together is if somebody is out with an injury.

 

[Eastoff]

We have a log-jam at SG with Rudy stuck behind Roy. Roy will probably be playing ~35mpg, that only leaves 13min for Rudy at the 2. I'm sure he'll get a couple at SF, but I don't think Blake will take any of the SG minutes. The only way I see Miller and Blake playing more than 5mpg together is if somebody is out with an injury.

I agree with the logic and time. Let's just say Hypothetically Roy is out for a month, that can't happen right, do you bring Marty down from the 3? Could Nate try out Dre and Steve, they do play significantly different offensives.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

What about Sheed at SF and BG at PF? After that move, Sheed never again stepped inside the 3-point line (okay...slight exaggeration, but you get my point).

 

[mook]

Blake can definitely play the "older Steve Kerr" role of backup shooting guard. Neither Blake nor Miller are very good defenders, though, so it's giving up quite a bit on the other end.