Unions, America's Backbone

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Denny Crane said:
Jimmy Hoffa was a prince among men.

The unions have always been made up of angels.

Get real.
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I love the myth that all Union people think their dear leaders can do no wrong. Maybe you should stop debating with the paper tigers you imagine and actually discuss facts. Not one pro-Union person in this thread has said anything remotely close to your statement.

Also, are you suggesting that it is OK to use an edited video to generalize about Unions because some members are not 'angels'?
 
Mike Hummell said:
I have no problem insulting people who 'don't believe what I believe in' if what they believe is a intentional lie. Maybe you missed the first post in this thread, a video labeling Union members as thugs. That video is an edited lie. I may be a jerk but at least I don't lie to people in order to get them on my side.

I realize that I am much ruder than all the other kind gents in this thread. You should flip back through the comment thread and read all the generous offers to shove things in my mouth or the kind well wishers for my family to starve. I have felt great love in this thread from 'conservatives' who care about their fellow man.

Sorry if my spanking joke offended you. But just to be clear, any child that thinks it is OK to steal would be in need of some kind of reform. Otherwise they might grow up to be a criminal, like the hedge fund managers at Hostess. I would be disappointed in my children if they grew up to behave like that.
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Alright, however you want to justify your attacks, it stills comes across as petty and cheapens any valid point you have to make, IMO.

Spanking doesn't offend me. I find it archaic method of discipline and studies show that physical punishment can cause issues in children. But every parent should make that choice. Just ironic to me that you are arguing union is not full of thugs while insulting posters and saying they should be spanked. Would hate to see you on the line arguing with people on the other side . . . I doubt you would be able to control yourself.
 
Mike Hummell said:
I love the myth that all Union people think their dear leaders can do no wrong. Maybe you should stop debating with the paper tigers you imagine and actually discuss facts. Not one pro-Union person in this thread has said anything remotely close to your statement.

Also, are you suggesting that it is OK to use an edited video to generalize about Unions because some members are not 'angels'?
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It's not ok. It's believable for good reason tho.
 
Mike Hummell said:
Without Unions there would have never been the development of the middle class in the US. We would have been like every other 3rd world nation since 1900, a poor mass population and a tiny elite controlling government and business. Those Unions fought for safety and living wages at a time when their lives were on the line. If they hadn't done it, America would be an entirely different place today. They managed to get a big enough piece of the pie in the 1940's for the middle class to take solid root in the 1950's and continue growing all the way until the 1970's. This was the golden age of Democratic economic policy in the US. In the 50's through the 70's congress had Democratic leadership every year. The combination of strong Unions and a Democratic congress created the greatest economy the world has ever known.

Unions are weaker now than when they first got their footing. If you are lucky enough to have a pension, then you have less protections today than you did in the 1950's. Union membership is currently the lowest it has been in the last 60 years. Private sector Union membership in the U.S. is currently a paltry 6.6%. How exactly can the terrible economy be blamed on such a small sector of the economy?

In 1980 the government took an anti-Union turn and began a 30+ year process of stripping workers of their rights. In 1992 the republicans won congress for the first time in 40 years and Unions have suffered ever since. So has the economy. Remember that all laws begin in the House and are then are sent to the Senate before a president can make it law. You can blame Clinton for NAFTA, the creation of the sub-prime, and the repeal of Graham-Steagal if you want but it was a republican congress that wrote those laws and sent them to his desk to sign.

In the 1980's the middle class began to shrink as the federal government became aggressively anti-Union for the first time in 40 years. It was no accident that throughout the 1900's the strength of Unions was directly connected to the strength of the economy and the size of the middle class. As Unions grew, so did America, as they continue to shrink we wallow in recession. Strengthen Unions and the economy will come back. Being anti-Union IS being anti-American.

Don't worry, they won't be strengthening workers rights and Unions anytime soon. Corporations like your money too much. They now own enough politicians in both parties thanks to the blue dog democrats and the apparently anti-Union Obama, who has done nothing to help. As long as money is the only recognized form of free speech we can expect the middle class to continue to shrink at the insistence of corporate America. You can also expect the main stream media to continue with its conservative anti-Union slant at the insistence of those very same corporate sponsors. The media has effectively rewritten history about the role of Unions in America. Proof lies in in the comments in this thread that reveal a parallel universe storyline that has been sold to infotainment consumers by Fox News, talk radio, and the Koch brothers.

So please, will one of you anti-Union ostriches explain to me how Unions can be blamed for the bad economy when they are weaker now than in the last 60+ years? Isn't it more likely that a strong middle class requires strong worker rights and compensation? How is America supposed to buy the goods and services that keep the economy humming if nobody has a disposable income? Try to respond with facts, your emotional opinions are not exactly something to base policy on. Any anti-Union person should be embarrassed to use a video of a fight that is edited and misleading. What does it say about you opinion that it is based on a known lie, and you use it anyway?

Take Hostess for example. The hedge funds collected $4.25 an hour per employee for over a year for the pension but failed to deliver it. This was over $7000 from me alone. They took that money out of the hands of 18,000 people and concentrated it into the hands of a few. And no, they didn't earn it by being the titans of industry. If you think that was good for the economy then you are in serious need of an education, or a spanking- because you must be 10. Someday you'll have a real job and understand.
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What a bunch of uneducated, brain-washed, bumper-sticker-material drivel. I can see why you had to resort to joining a union.
 
Treaty_of_Batum said:
Alright, however you want to justify your attacks, it stills comes across as petty and cheapens any valid point you have to make, IMO.

Spanking doesn't offend me. I find it archaic method of discipline and studies show that physical punishment can cause issues in children. But every parent should make that choice. Just ironic to me that you are arguing union is not full of thugs while insulting posters and saying they should be spanked. Would hate to see you on the line arguing with people on the other side . . . I doubt you would be able to control yourself.
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You sure jump to a lot of conclusions. Just to be clear, I am not, nor have I, defended spanking. I made an off hand insult at some twerps. At the risk of offending you I will point out the irony of your position. You are offended enough to speak out in defense of the emotions of these lying twerps, yet you never voiced concern for the workers who were being lied about. More irony shows when you accuse me of 'justifying my attacks' while you attack me over a single sentence (spanking) that has nothing to do with anything I have talked about in this thread. Speaking of controlling one's self...
 
MickZagger said:
Uhhhh the tone towards union workers in this thread set the table.

And spanking kids is evil....
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Yes, because simply telling your kids right from wrong is "good enough" as our society and morality falls to shambles...? Please tell me that was supposed to be green font.
 
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Mike Hummell said:
You sure jump to a lot of conclusions. Just to be clear, I am not, nor have I, defended spanking. I made an off hand insult at some twerps. At the risk of offending you I will point out the irony of your position. You are offended enough to speak out in defense of the emotions of these lying twerps, yet you never voiced concern for the workers who were being lied about. More irony shows when you accuse me of 'justifying my attacks' while you attack me over a single sentence (spanking) that has nothing to do with anything I have talked about in this thread. Speaking of controlling one's self...
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Yes let's speak about controlling oneself (as you leave it out there like you made a point).

I am not out here attacking a broad group of people saying they are children who need to be spanked and maybe someday they will get a real job. If I was, I would consider myself being out of control. Instead I'm questioning/attacking your particular statement. I don't believe that is out of control and at the very least there is a clear difference to what I am doing (challenging your specific statement) compared to what you are doing (attacking posters that don't think like you)

I also haven't dumbed down my "attacking" you by saying you should be spanked or haven't held a real job in which you didn't have a union to protect you.

I also have not defended the other side (as you claim) as I tend to side with unions (although you are changing my mind).

I also haven't found the need to call you names to make a point whereas you now have called posters 10 yr old kids, never having a real job and twerps. I can tell you I know many posters in this thread and they are not 10 yr old, have had "real" jobs and if they are twerps I guess depends on your definition but this is the first time they have been referred to as twerps.

So yes, you basically appear to be so emotional about the topic as to be out of control while I have limited my discussions to particular statements without the need of using derogatory names to make my point.

The only thing I agree with is the name calling and suggested need for spanking has little to do with the issues, yet you feel compelled to end your long post with those thoughts . . . when they have nothing to do with the issues.

So who is out of control again?
 
BLAZINGGIANTS said:
Yes, because simply telling your kids right from wrong is "good enough" as our society and morality falls to shambles...? Please tell me that was supposed to be green font.
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Umm it was such obvious sarcasm it didn't need green font.

I thought better with you man. I'm disappointed
 
blazerboy30 said:
What a bunch of uneducated, brain-washed, bumper-sticker-material drivel. I can see why you had to resort to joining a union.
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You hate unions and I find that bottled up hatred absolutely hilarious
 
MickZagger said:
You hate unions and I find that bottled up hatred absolutely hilarious
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There's no bottled up hatred. I make it well known that I think unions, in general, are a complete joke. And I've already said that those who purposely join a union do so because they know they can't succeed on their own merit.

Threads like these just prove my point.
 
MickZagger said:
Umm it was such obvious sarcasm it didn't need green font.

I thought better with you man. I'm disappointed
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Dude, there are so many humorless fukks here, and the way these posts twists, I admit, I can't always detect sarcasm. Add up the additional ish going on in life, and it's a double-whammy.

But I had seen at least one person against spanking in this thread, and I can't keep all you dudes straight anymore.
 
BrianFromWA said:
One time, I had a real job, and was in a union. And I was one of the top performers in a Fortune 40 company. I was stuck in a wage scale (which I understood, but didn't like) and stuck without being able to be promoted b/c of union rules on time-in-a-particular grade. My raises were pooled and decided by a union calculation. And when management told the union they had to start laying people off, they started by just laying off anyone with less than 5 years of service (I had 4+). Management asked specifically if they could keep me, because of the program I had started, because I was seen as a nationally-recognized subject matter expert, and because one of our main customers loved the work I was doing. Union said "we don't tell you which managers to hire, don't tell us which union members to fire."

So I got to pay $50 a month for a group of people who worked less than I did, were worse at their job than I was, and who were less important to the company (and bottom line) to be paid more than I was, earn similar raises to mine, and not be protected in a layoff situation. Rewarding mediocrity and not being merit-based are only two of the reasons that I think unions are going the way of the dodo. If you're mediocre (or suck), they're great. If you're good, you're not rewarded. :dunno:
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Not really. If you were mediocre you'd have faced the same fate.

Management's dishonesty is why time served is needed as a performance measure to protect workers. Funny that you complain since you receive extra super preferential treatment from the world's largest unionized employer.
More qualified non-veterans with more time on the job will always be let go to protect your position, in any federal employment of any kind.
 
blazerboy30 said:
There's no bottled up hatred. I make it well known that I think unions, in general, are a complete joke. And I've already said that those who purposely join a union do so because they know they can't succeed on their own merit.

Threads like these just prove my point.
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I work with a lot of people with Bachelor degrees and its not hard to understand why they stayed with the union labor. High wages, zero out of pocket medical dental, accumulate lots of vacations, virtually no worry about losing your job, ridiculously good pension. I'm so glad that I never racked up any student loans. We make more than a lot of people with degrees and have great benefits. I can understand the hate. But don't hate the player, hate the game.
 
MickZagger said:
...virtually no worry about losing your job...
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That's one of my biggest reasons for concern as it relates to unions. Oh, and the dues that go to veritable schmucks. ;)
 
MickZagger said:
I work with a lot of people with Bachelor degrees and its not hard to understand why they stayed with the union labor. High wages, zero out of pocket medical dental, accumulate lots of vacations, virtually no worry about losing your job, ridiculously good pension. I'm so glad that I never racked up any student loans. We make more than a lot of people with degrees and have great benefits.
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Again, this proves my point.

If somebody is actually confident in their intelligence, work ethic, self-motivation, productivity, etc, etc, they would not join a union. By joining a union, you are by definition, admitting that you should be valued at the same level as everybody else in the group. Thus, you're desiring to be valued as average with respect to the union. You're proud to strive for average and not give yourself real opportunity for true success.

Your group is a self selection of people that know they'll be treated as average, regardless of performance, which leads to an overall lower level of group performance.

MickZagger said:
I can understand the hate. But don't hate the player, hate the game.
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I always giggle when you say this, as if making $60k / year is something that would make me jealous.
 
I don't hate the player or the game. In fact I think UPS workers earn everything they get and thank god they have a union . . . whose work isn't done yet (May 2011 article):

Joe Korziuk has spent 23 years working for U.P.S. washing trucks, delivering packages and driving tractor trailers. Though he loves the job, it has a downside: At 45, he has had surgery on both knees and a shoulder, developed bulging disks in his back and sustained a concussion when boxes fell on him.

“They turn a blind eye until something happens," said Bernie Jayne, a U.P.S. driver, speaking of the company’s supervisors.

“It’s fear and shame; it’s like third grade," said Anthony Prince, a Teamsters lawyer, speaking of U.P.S.’s safety programs.
“It’s a direct result of the job,” Mr. Korziuk said. “They’re always harping on you and pushing you to go faster and faster.”

Mr. Korziuk was among about 1,200 members of Teamsters Local 705 representing several hubs in the Chicago area who began a campaign last week demanding that U.P.S. reduce workloads and change what the union calls a “blame the worker” approach to health and safety. On April 28, Teamsters nationwide wore stickers reading “Unfair Production Standards,” a play on the name U.P.S.

Employees said they were pressured to increase productivity while at the same time they were pushed to reduce injuries, a combination that workers claim leads many of them to avoid reporting injuries. Workers and union officials said the health and safety issues at U.P.S. affected tens of thousands of employees. They also said the issues symbolized larger trends in many workplaces where people were pressured to work longer and harder, resulting in more physical effects, even as long-term job security and health care access had become more precarious.


I don't understand why people think unions are bad but corporation, who will exploit workers if given the chance, are OK. What is wrong with employees banning together to make sure they are treated fairly. It's not like the companies are at the union's mercy. They have high powered lawyers looking out for their best interest just like unions do.

Blue collar workers, in my eyes, are the heros of our society.
 
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blazerboy30 said:
What does that mean?
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That they do all the dirty work that is needed without getting any recognition. They give their life blood to these businesses and the business would not be successful without these people busting their ass every day.

I think many businesses have people behind the scenes that make sure the company is running smoothly, yet it is the CEOs CFOs and the like that get the recognition and compensation. I consider people who are dedicated and do their work day in and day out, at times sacraficing their own health to get the job done, without being recognized for what they do, to be the heros.
 
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Treaty_of_Batum said:
That they do all the dirty work that is needed without getting any recognition. They give their life blood to these businesses and the business would not be successful without these people busting their ass every day.

I think many businesses have people behind the scenes that make sure the company is running smoothly, yet it is the CEOs CFOs and the like that get the recognition and compensation. I consider people who are dedicated and do their work day in and day out, at times sacraficing their own health to get the job done, without being recognized for what they do, to be the heros.
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What about the CEOs and founders that were responsible for actually starting these companies and creating the jobs for the the blue collar workers? I guess I don't understand why receiving less recognition makes somebody more of a hero.
 
blazerboy30 said:
What about the CEOs and founders that were responsible for actually starting these companies and creating the jobs for the the blue collar workers? I guess I don't understand why receiving less recognition makes somebody more of a hero.
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I guess it comes down to whatever one's definition of hero is. I tend to think a hero is that person who does good but doesn't get the recognition for it.

But yes, people that start companies that hire many employees are certainly helping society. They get recognition and compensation, but they too had to take risks and devote their life to making a company successful and can be considered heros. I tend to give that distinction to the ones that don't get recognized, but I don't have any hard and fast rule and think many people could fall under that category.

My point with union workers is that they are doing very hard and important work, but one doesn't think of them when they think about the success of a company . . . so i consider them the heros behind the scene or the heros of society. Just a phrase . . . that I'm sure could be debated by those that disagree.
 
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