Unions, America's Backbone

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jlprk said:
8000 crappy easily-replaced jobs, which the exhausted workers hated after giving up all benefits like pensions years ago to bail out the incompetent owners. The workers put the company to a well-deserved death. McDonald's jobs will be much more pleasant and probably pay more.
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what? With this sound arguement?
 
Denny Crane said:
http://www.careerbliss.com/salary/h...?q=national+baker+of+wonder+bread+and+hostess

Average National Baker of Wonder Bread and Hostess Salary Range at Hostess Brands $94K to $117K.

$117K / 2080 hours in a year = $56.25/hr. I did this math myself, FWIW.
Click to expand...

Does that site work like glassdoor? I've never heard of it. Even if we assume those figures are legit, I'm not sure how many of these 100k bakers there were considering the average bakers union worker made $16/hour according to the NYT.

After eight months, the Teamsters eventually reached an agreement with the company. The union agreed to a contract that cut pay by 8 percent immediately — with that cut shrinking to 5 percent next year. The Teamster workers, most of whom drive trucks for Hostess, average about $20 an hour; the bakery union workers, $16 an hour.
Click to expand...

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2012/11/19/hostess-and-bakers-union-agree-to-mediation/
 
Denny Crane said:
http://www.careerbliss.com/salary/h...?q=national+baker+of+wonder+bread+and+hostess

Average National Baker of Wonder Bread and Hostess Salary Range at Hostess Brands $94K to $117K.

$117K / 2080 hours in a year = $56.25/hr. I did this math myself, FWIW.
Click to expand...

What is a National Baker? The #1 baker in the company? How many are there? Is it a union job? How does that one job title fit into this?

http://www.careerbliss.com/salary/hostess-brands-salaries-24142/

That says that the company's average salary is $55K, and then lists a bunch of nonunion jobs which are higher, showing that the union jobs must average below the $55K average to get to that average.
 
DaLincolnJones said:
I have seen that as well, but the factor is "union" baker..big difference from some mom and pop bakery
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Not sure I follow. The $16/hour is for the bakers union. Apparently there are more than actual bakers in this union, but if that is accurate, then a normal union baker isn't making 6 figures. Maybe the head baker, but not the average worker.
 
What a coincidence. Denny chanced upon the highest-paid job in the company, National Baker, and depicted it as average. And it may be a nonunion job, since his Careerbliss site covers all jobs, not just union. What an accidental error.
 
I wonder how many of those union workers have already found a new job. Considering it has been close to a month now, if they haven't found a new job they would have been better off taking an 8% salary reduction.
 
porkchopexpress said:
Not sure I follow. The $16/hour is for the bakers union. Apparently there are more than actual bakers in this union, but if that is accurate, then a normal union baker isn't making 6 figures. Maybe the head baker, but not the average worker.
Click to expand...

my bad, I have seen that as well.

All the information available is all over the place. I called a friends wife who is a Safeway Baker, she is union and with benifits she is knocking down 25 per plus benifits..retirement, health and dental for her and husband,dunno that has to be worth eight to ten bucks and hour alone...and that is here in oregon..
 
blazerboy30 said:
I wonder how many of those union workers have already found a new job. Considering it has been close to a month now, if they haven't found a new job they would have been better off taking an 8% salary reduction.
Click to expand...

Someone said the reduction was from $33K to $25K, a 25% reduction, not 8%. If Denny's CareerBliss site is right, they will get a higher-paying job, so it will well be worth it. This also puts management out of their misery with those $18M payoffs mentioned early in the thread.
 
DaLincolnJones said:
my bad, I have seen that as well.

All the information available is all over the place. I called a friends wife who is a Safeway Baker, she is union and with benifits she is knocking down 25 per plus benifits..retirement, health and dental for her and husband,dunno that has to be worth eight to ten bucks and hour alone...and that is here in oregon..
Click to expand...

So you're saying Hostess was paying $9/hour less than comparable jobs? Yet it was still the unions fault they were losing money? Not the 60%-100% executive pay raises in the past year? Not the other potential management missteps that led it to go bankrupt multiple times within a few years? I understand that sometimes unions can be a significant factor leading to a company's demise, but in this instance I've yet seen any evidence pointing to that. A few vague and poorly supported, claims of 100k+ baking jobs don't sway me. Seeing past concessions made by the union workers, the concessions that were on the table and then seeing examples of 'average baker' (plus this personal testimonial) showing that the hostess workers were paid below market rate all lead me to believe that the bulk of Hostess' problems didn't lie in their workforce (or at least how they were paid).
 
The question was raised about BAKER'S UNION employees. I looked it up.
 
Your own site says Hostess employees, including management, average $55K per year, so your National Baker, whatever that is, is extremely atypical at $115K per year.
 
jlprk said:
Your own site says Hostess employees, including management, average $55K per year, so your National Baker, whatever that is, is extremely atypical at $115K per year.
Click to expand...

No it's not atypical.

For every $16/hour worker, they'd have a $40/hour worker to average out to $55K.
 
Denny Crane said:
No it's not atypical.

For every $16/hour worker, they'd have a $40/hour worker to average out to $55K.
Click to expand...

You've never calculated payroll, eh? Beginner's arithmetic error. I leave the solution to you for homework.
 
2080 * 16 = 33,280

2080 * 40 = 83,200

83,200 + 33,280 = 116,480

/2 = 58,240

Close enough to $55K for govt. work.
 
You've been reassigned to Personnel. Accounting, uh, doesn't have a spare desk.
 
I am the Mike Hummell referenced in the CNN Money article earlier in this thread. I have been searching the internet for the misinformation spread by the the Hostess hedge funds and the anti-Union mainstream media. I have found plenty and this forum seems to be full of manufactured numbers. I have read in this thread everything from $33 to $50 an hour. Even heated conversation about Baker's making $100K+. I have never heard of a National Baker and the website linked to has lost all credibility on this topic.

These numbers are crazy. I spent 14 years at 2 Hostess bakeries and spent time in every department ran with Bakers: production, shipping, and receiving. At the Lenexa, KS bakery I made the TOP rate of pay at $16.12 an hour. There was no method of improving that number. I made $34,000 last year and it was only scheduled to go down (again). As far as the example of the Oregon Baker making $25 an hour + benefits, if that story is true, if anything, it proves that Hostess has underpaid it's workers for years.

The contract the company tried to force on us included a 27% pay cut over 5 years, 8% was only the first year. I would have dropped from $16.12 to $11.26 an hour. My coworkers and I have been looking for (and finding) jobs for over a month. I believe EVERY Baker will make more than $11.26 an hour in their new job, which btw, may be right back at the same bakery when the new owners move in. Whoever the new owners are, if they are a real large scale baking company, WILL pay more than $11.26 an hour.

Everyone seems to forget that the hedge funds low-balled us with the intent of breaking the Union. By FORCING us to vote no, the company can pretend to need to close and then sell the brands and bakeries without the Union attached. Closing was nothing more than a mechanism to strip the Unions. This increases the sale price for the benefit of the hedge funds. If this wasn't true then they never would have closed. They have had buyers knocking down the door for years. Media reports say over a 100 potential buyers right now. They even fought off an offer from Bimbo's/Sara Lee in 2007 because they knew they could make more in the future. I believe they will be proven right.

Also remember that the self-funded portion of our pension was a $4.26 an hour contribution at my bakery. The hedge funds continued to collect the money for over a year without putting a cent into the pension fund. They finally admitted this in the WSJ earlier this week. If we had signed their contract we would have lost that $4.25 an hour forever, not just what they already stole, but the $4.25 an hour would disappear forever. They aren't even including the $4.25 as part of the 27% cut! Any comparison to the Teamsters 'taking the same deal' needs to remember that their pension was not collected in this fashion and they did NOT lose this same money.

If you would have voted for this then I would advise you to learn how to stand up for yourself. It was 72-0 at my bakery, conservatives and liberals alike. When you hear people say we should 'just keep the job while looking' they don't know what they are talking about. They don't know what we made, what we were 'offered', or what our alternatives are. Contrary to the entire mainstream media's opinion, we are all well-trained, experienced, and sought after workers. Our job searches are going just fine. We did not 'ruin our lives' as I have heard over and over throughout the internet and the news.

Also, the Trailblazers should have kept Kevin Pritchard at the top, Jayhawks are never out of contention.
 
Mike Hummell said:
I am the Mike Hummell referenced in the CNN Money article earlier in this thread. I have been searching the internet for the misinformation spread by the the Hostess hedge funds and the anti-Union mainstream media. I have found plenty and this forum seems to be full of manufactured numbers. I have read in this thread everything from $33 to $50 an hour. Even heated conversation about Baker's making $100K+. I have never heard of a National Baker and the website linked to has lost all credibility on this topic.

These numbers are crazy. I spent 14 years at 2 Hostess bakeries and spent time in every department ran with Bakers: production, shipping, and receiving. At the Lenexa, KS bakery I made the TOP rate of pay at $16.12 an hour. There was no method of improving that number. I made $34,000 last year and it was only scheduled to go down (again). As far as the example of the Oregon Baker making $25 an hour + benefits, if that story is true, if anything, it proves that Hostess has underpaid it's workers for years.

The contract the company tried to force on us included a 27% pay cut over 5 years, 8% was only the first year. I would have dropped from $16.12 to $11.26 an hour. My coworkers and I have been looking for (and finding) jobs for over a month. I believe EVERY Baker will make more than $11.26 an hour in their new job, which btw, may be right back at the same bakery when the new owners move in. Whoever the new owners are, if they are a real large scale baking company, WILL pay more than $11.26 an hour.

Everyone seems to forget that the hedge funds low-balled us with the intent of breaking the Union. By FORCING us to vote no, the company can pretend to need to close and then sell the brands and bakeries without the Union attached. Closing was nothing more than a mechanism to strip the Unions. This increases the sale price for the benefit of the hedge funds. If this wasn't true then they never would have closed. They have had buyers knocking down the door for years. Media reports say over a 100 potential buyers right now. They even fought off an offer from Bimbo's/Sara Lee in 2007 because they knew they could make more in the future. I believe they will be proven right.

Also remember that the self-funded portion of our pension was a $4.26 an hour contribution at my bakery. The hedge funds continued to collect the money for over a year without putting a cent into the pension fund. They finally admitted this in the WSJ earlier this week. If we had signed their contract we would have lost that $4.25 an hour forever, not just what they already stole, but the $4.25 an hour would disappear forever. They aren't even including the $4.25 as part of the 27% cut! Any comparison to the Teamsters 'taking the same deal' needs to remember that their pension was not collected in this fashion and they did NOT lose this same money.

If you would have voted for this then I would advise you to learn how to stand up for yourself. It was 72-0 at my bakery, conservatives and liberals alike. When you hear people say we should 'just keep the job while looking' they don't know what they are talking about. They don't know what we made, what we were 'offered', or what our alternatives are. Contrary to the entire mainstream media's opinion, we are all well-trained, experienced, and sought after workers. Our job searches are going just fine. We did not 'ruin our lives' as I have heard over and over throughout the internet and the news.

Also, the Trailblazers should have kept Kevin Pritchard at the top, Jayhawks are never out of contention.
Click to expand...

Wow Mike, thanks for posting. I think having someone mentioned in a news article come in here and post is a first for this forum.
 
Mike Hummell said:
I am the Mike Hummell referenced in the CNN Money article earlier in this thread. I have been searching the internet for the misinformation spread by the the Hostess hedge funds and the anti-Union mainstream media. I have found plenty and this forum seems to be full of manufactured numbers. I have read in this thread everything from $33 to $50 an hour. Even heated conversation about Baker's making $100K+. I have never heard of a National Baker and the website linked to has lost all credibility on this topic.

These numbers are crazy. I spent 14 years at 2 Hostess bakeries and spent time in every department ran with Bakers: production, shipping, and receiving. At the Lenexa, KS bakery I made the TOP rate of pay at $16.12 an hour. There was no method of improving that number. I made $34,000 last year and it was only scheduled to go down (again). As far as the example of the Oregon Baker making $25 an hour + benefits, if that story is true, if anything, it proves that Hostess has underpaid it's workers for years.

The contract the company tried to force on us included a 27% pay cut over 5 years, 8% was only the first year. I would have dropped from $16.12 to $11.26 an hour. My coworkers and I have been looking for (and finding) jobs for over a month. I believe EVERY Baker will make more than $11.26 an hour in their new job, which btw, may be right back at the same bakery when the new owners move in. Whoever the new owners are, if they are a real large scale baking company, WILL pay more than $11.26 an hour.

Everyone seems to forget that the hedge funds low-balled us with the intent of breaking the Union. By FORCING us to vote no, the company can pretend to need to close and then sell the brands and bakeries without the Union attached. Closing was nothing more than a mechanism to strip the Unions. This increases the sale price for the benefit of the hedge funds. If this wasn't true then they never would have closed. They have had buyers knocking down the door for years. Media reports say over a 100 potential buyers right now. They even fought off an offer from Bimbo's/Sara Lee in 2007 because they knew they could make more in the future. I believe they will be proven right.

Also remember that the self-funded portion of our pension was a $4.26 an hour contribution at my bakery. The hedge funds continued to collect the money for over a year without putting a cent into the pension fund. They finally admitted this in the WSJ earlier this week. If we had signed their contract we would have lost that $4.25 an hour forever, not just what they already stole, but the $4.25 an hour would disappear forever. They aren't even including the $4.25 as part of the 27% cut! Any comparison to the Teamsters 'taking the same deal' needs to remember that their pension was not collected in this fashion and they did NOT lose this same money.

If you would have voted for this then I would advise you to learn how to stand up for yourself. It was 72-0 at my bakery, conservatives and liberals alike. When you hear people say we should 'just keep the job while looking' they don't know what they are talking about. They don't know what we made, what we were 'offered', or what our alternatives are. Contrary to the entire mainstream media's opinion, we are all well-trained, experienced, and sought after workers. Our job searches are going just fine. We did not 'ruin our lives' as I have heard over and over throughout the internet and the news.

Also, the Trailblazers should have kept Kevin Pritchard at the top, Jayhawks are never out of contention.
Click to expand...

Well that settles it! Thanks for giving us the right information! I hope you are blessed and able to find a job that will provide for your family.
 
Mike Hummell said:
I am the Mike Hummell referenced in the CNN Money article earlier in this thread. ...

Also, the Trailblazers should have kept Kevin Pritchard at the top, Jayhawks are never out of contention.
Click to expand...

Thanks for setting the record straight, Mike.

P.S. Pritchard had to go. He couldn't see the flaws in the guys he drafted.
 
Mike Hummell said:
I am the Mike Hummell referenced in the CNN Money article earlier in this thread. I have been searching the internet for the misinformation spread by the the Hostess hedge funds and the anti-Union mainstream media. I have found plenty and this forum seems to be full of manufactured numbers. I have read in this thread everything from $33 to $50 an hour. Even heated conversation about Baker's making $100K+. I have never heard of a National Baker and the website linked to has lost all credibility on this topic.

These numbers are crazy. I spent 14 years at 2 Hostess bakeries and spent time in every department ran with Bakers: production, shipping, and receiving. At the Lenexa, KS bakery I made the TOP rate of pay at $16.12 an hour. There was no method of improving that number. I made $34,000 last year and it was only scheduled to go down (again). As far as the example of the Oregon Baker making $25 an hour + benefits, if that story is true, if anything, it proves that Hostess has underpaid it's workers for years.

The contract the company tried to force on us included a 27% pay cut over 5 years, 8% was only the first year. I would have dropped from $16.12 to $11.26 an hour. My coworkers and I have been looking for (and finding) jobs for over a month. I believe EVERY Baker will make more than $11.26 an hour in their new job, which btw, may be right back at the same bakery when the new owners move in. Whoever the new owners are, if they are a real large scale baking company, WILL pay more than $11.26 an hour.

Everyone seems to forget that the hedge funds low-balled us with the intent of breaking the Union. By FORCING us to vote no, the company can pretend to need to close and then sell the brands and bakeries without the Union attached. Closing was nothing more than a mechanism to strip the Unions. This increases the sale price for the benefit of the hedge funds. If this wasn't true then they never would have closed. They have had buyers knocking down the door for years. Media reports say over a 100 potential buyers right now. They even fought off an offer from Bimbo's/Sara Lee in 2007 because they knew they could make more in the future. I believe they will be proven right.

Also remember that the self-funded portion of our pension was a $4.26 an hour contribution at my bakery. The hedge funds continued to collect the money for over a year without putting a cent into the pension fund. They finally admitted this in the WSJ earlier this week. If we had signed their contract we would have lost that $4.25 an hour forever, not just what they already stole, but the $4.25 an hour would disappear forever. They aren't even including the $4.25 as part of the 27% cut! Any comparison to the Teamsters 'taking the same deal' needs to remember that their pension was not collected in this fashion and they did NOT lose this same money.

If you would have voted for this then I would advise you to learn how to stand up for yourself. It was 72-0 at my bakery, conservatives and liberals alike. When you hear people say we should 'just keep the job while looking' they don't know what they are talking about. They don't know what we made, what we were 'offered', or what our alternatives are. Contrary to the entire mainstream media's opinion, we are all well-trained, experienced, and sought after workers. Our job searches are going just fine. We did not 'ruin our lives' as I have heard over and over throughout the internet and the news.

Also, the Trailblazers should have kept Kevin Pritchard at the top, Jayhawks are never out of contention.
Click to expand...

Appreciate the post. Sites that present salary information like the $115K get their info from people who work at the company and submit the information via the WWW site.

Of course people can lie about these things, but people are saying they've read the same figure from a number of sources. I don't think careerbliss.com is the only source.

I saw your post on DailyKOS as well.
 
Denny Crane said:
Appreciate the post. Sites that present salary information like the $115K get their info from people who work at the company and submit the information via the WWW site.

Of course people can lie about these things, but people are saying they've read the same figure from a number of sources. I don't think careerbliss.com is the only source.

I saw your post on DailyKOS as well.
Click to expand...

DC, you got to let that 115K and that site go.

Clearly those numbers you posted have nothing to do with Hostess. Not saying you intentionally tried to give misleading informantion, saying that after further discussion, even you should conceed that those numbers do not give any kind of indication what Hostess employees were making or have any insight to the hostess situation.
 
Treaty_of_Batum said:
DC, you got to let that 115K and that site go.

Clearly those numbers you posted have nothing to do with Hostess. Not saying you intentionally tried to give misleading informantion, saying that after further discussion, even you should conceed that those numbers do not give any kind of indication what Hostess employees were making or have any insight to the hostess situation.
Click to expand...

I don't know what Hostess employees were making. The CEO and other executive salaries, even with raises, weren't super high for company able to accumulate $1B in debts.

I just saw people claimed they heard a $50 figure, and I thought it interesting enough to see if there was any source for it. There is.
 
If Unions were America's backbone then they wouldn't have bankrupted Michigan and California already.
 
Thank you all for having a serious conversation about this. I find it frustrating to read dramatic conclusions based on falsehoods that start in the hedge fund PR office. I don't care if people are pro-Union or anti-Union, the facts should matter. So many people seem to assume that their personal beliefs about Unions are relevant to this individual case. Being anti-Union doesn't change the motives or behavior of the company towards its workers. It doesn't make up for the pension theft. The media has destroyed this story and has already moved on.

Didn't Pritchard draft Aldridge, Roy, Bayless and Batum? Anyone would have made the Oden mistake. Pretty solid core. Doesn't seem like a bad track record. Just sayin.
 
Apparently the Teamsters looked at Hostess' books and said the unions would have to make serious concessions.

FWIW
 
this will be the trend in america, cut wages until people "quit", then blame them and send the jobs out of the country or to prison labor
 
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