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That fourth quarter haunts my dreams. But people always forget that we'd actually come back from 3-1 down in that series. If we could've hung on to just 1 of our 15 point lead, the Lakers would be known for an epic collapse. Instead, we are.
(And one of those 3 was because of a RON HARPER jump shot, Goddamnit.)
 
I find it hard to believe that our best player was a 35 year old man who played 26mpg and averaged 12/8 with 1 block a game when the roster also had Rasheed and Pippen on it, but I never got to experience Sabonis truly so my opinion or thoughts on a situation that happened 16 years ago is meaningless.
Your self assessment is refreshing!
 
There's one major difference between this team and that team: youth.

Evan Turner is our oldest player at 27 years old.

Young guys want to play. That WCF team was a bunch of older dudes with a few young guys. The young guys wanted minutes, and we ultimately lost the best of them in Jermaine. We are looking at something similar with this team. We have more young players than we have minutes available. Some of these guys will be free agents next year. How much do you think Plumlee gets next year?

The difference in entitlement. By the end of the year, that 2000-01 team had more than 10 guys who all thought they deserved to start and play big minutes. Most had been starters their entire careers, or at least before they arrived in Portland. And Whitsitt just kept adding more guys who thought they should be starting.

Steve Smith started the season as our starting SG and lost his staring spot to Bonzie ( Dunleavy wasn't totally against playing the young guys). First, Bonzie was disgruntled because he thought he should be starting, and then Smitty was disgruntled because he lost his starting spot.

As I mentioned, Pippen was our starting SF at the start of the season, but when he went down to injury, Stacy Augmon filled in, played great and the team kept cruising along. Then Pippen comes back AND Whitsitt lures Schrempf back out of retirement by offering him special treatment. Now, we have three guys who all think they deserve big minutes at SF. A log jam of veterans who have all been starters and expect starter minutes. Plus, one of them is getting special treatment. A sure fire recipe for locker room discord.

Next up, Damon was our starting PG but had been paranoid and whining about losing PT to Greg Anthony (who had previously been a starter before coming to POR), especially in the 4th quarter, going all the way back to the 1999 WCF against the Spurs. Damon was also smoking a lot of weed back then (or at least getting arrested for it a lot - the yellow hummer, the tin foil incident at the airport, the pound bag found in his closet by the local authorities that conveniently ended up belonging to someone else, etc.). That probably contributed to his paranoia. Enter Rod Strickland who had been a starter his entire career and once again, we are three deep at a position with veterans who all expect starters minutes. That was when the team imploded and started losing. They hadn't lost more than 2 games in a row all season, and immediately went on a 5 game losing streak - including losses against some of the weakest teams in the league.

The front court was also stacked with guys who were used to starting. Sabonis, Dale Davis, Sheed and Kemp had all been starters for years. Plus, Kemp was an unmotivated lard ass with a huge contract and and even huger coke habit. He'd been drinking like a fish going all the way back to his Seattle days and put on about 70 pounds. But hey, lets pay him even more than Brian Grant wanted and let Dunleavy figure out the PT. In early April, Kemp finally quit on the team and entered rehab for substance abuse.

On that 2000 team, Jermaine and Bonzi were both young guys that wanted more minutes. That's only natural. They brought in Dale Davis to split time with Sabonis so he wouldn't have to play so many minutes during the regular season. Plus they also brought in fat ass Kemp, who had been playing center in CLE since he was way too fat to guard PFs any more. They would have been much better off just giving those minutes to Jermaine. It would have kept him happy and let him get the PT he needed to reach his potential. Adding more guys who think they should be starting isn't exactly the most intelligent way to deal with PT issues - especially when one of those guys is a severely overpaid, severely overweight drug addict.

BNM
 
He got 12 mpg that year. Do you know for a fact that JO requested a trade and that is why we traded him? Even if he did, Bob could've kept him.

Yep, we could have kept him and simply given him the minutes they gave to his replacement Dale Davis. They wanted to reduce the wear and tear on Sabonis during the regular season, and could have just given those minutes to Jermaine - both problems solved. See how easy that was?

BNM
 
Not a superstar.

At 25 he was the best player on a 61-win team that went to the ECF. He was 2nd team All NBA, behind only Shaq, and came in 3rd in MVP voting. Sounds kind of superstarish to me. Prior to the Malice at the Palace melt down and subsequent suspensions, that team was poised to be the dominant team in the East for years.

BNM
 
At 25 he was the best player on a 61-win team that went to the ECF. He was 2nd team All NBA, behind only Shaq, and came in 3rd in MVP voting. Sounds kind of superstarish to me. Prior to the Malice at the Palace melt down and subsequent suspensions, that team was poised to be the dominant team in the East for years.

BNM

Thank you.
 
Dale Davis was the best player in the league at slowing down Shaq, and if I recall correctly, it wasn't even close. That trade was the absolutely right trade to make, because at the time it was about getting over the Shaq hurdle the next season to win it all.

That's one of the biggest urban legends/outright myths ever.

Yeah, Dale Davis went toe-to-toe with Shaq in the 2000 NBA finals, but to call him a Shaq stopper is hilarious. Shaq barely broke a sweat in that series and averaged 38.0 ppg (to Davis' 8.7), 16.7 rpg (to Davis' 10.0) and 2.7 bpg (to Davis' 1.0). He easily won Finals MVP. His average GmSc (small sample size equivalent to PER) was 30.6. The second highest Laker was Kobe with a GmSc of 9.6. Shaq COMPLETELY dominated that series and destroyed Dale Davis.

Yeah, Davis was an all star in the East that year. Big deal, he actually had worse numbers (10.0/9.9/1.3 vs. 13.6/10.3/1.2) than Jamaal Magloire the year he made the all star team.

Sabonis and company actually did a MUCH better job slowing down Shaq that year in the WCF than IND and Davis did in the Finals.

Shaq's numbers against POR:
25.9 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 1.9 bpg, 20.6 GmSc

Shaq's numbers against IND:
38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.4 bpg, 30.6 GmSc

Bringing in Dale Davis and expecting him to slow down Shaq was just plain insane.

BNM
 
No, it really wasn't. Davis had just defended Shaq, in the Finals, better than anyone had defended him all season. Shaq was our biggest obstacle to a championship. Jerm wasn't doing shit for us. It was a great trade that just didn't work out.

Read my other post. Shaq scored 38 ppg in that series against IND. He completely dominated Dale Davis, MUCH more than he dominated the Blazers in the WCF. Perpetuating this myth that Dale Davis was some kind of Shaq stopper has to stop. He wasn't. If anything, he was one of the worst centers in the league at guarding Shaq. Not really his fault. He was basically a PF that was forced to play center and totally outclassed by Shaq. Luckily for him, when he was in the East, he only had to see Shaq twice a year, outside of that one disastrous finals series when he was COMPLETELY OWNED by Shaq in a way few others have ever been owned.

BNM
 
That's one of the biggest urban legends/outright myths ever.

Yeah, Dale Davis went toe-to-toe with Shaq in the 2000 NBA finals, but to call him a Shaq stopper is hilarious. Shaq barely broke a sweat in that series and averaged 38.0 ppg (to Davis' 8.7), 16.7 rpg (to Davis' 10.0) and 2.7 bpg (to Davis' 1.0). He easily won Finals MVP. His average GmSc (small sample size equivalent to PER) was 30.6. The second highest Laker was Kobe with a GmSc of 9.6. Shaq COMPLETELY dominated that series and destroyed Dale Davis.

Yeah, Davis was an all star in the East that year. Big deal, he actually had worse numbers (10.0/9.9/1.3 vs. 13.6/10.3/1.2) than Jamaal Magloire the year he made the all star team.

Sabonis and company actually did a MUCH better job slowing down Shaq that year in the WCF than IND and Davis did in the Finals.

Shaq's numbers against POR:
25.9 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 1.9 bpg, 20.6 GmSc

Shaq's numbers against IND:
38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.4 bpg, 30.6 GmSc

Bringing in Dale Davis and expecting him to slow down Shaq was just plain insane.

BNM

Shaq was just insane....

And after watching that 30/30 about the Magic, I have to think that the front office in Orlando should have been banned from the NBA for life for low balling him.
 
Six straight All-Star games.

Voted as a starter in 2 of them.

Go look at his stats between 01-02 and 06-07.

That's a superstar.
I wouldn't count him. Superstars sell tickets at home and on the road, have major endorsement deals, get good TV ratings and sell jerseys. It's not just stats. In my opinion.
 
That's one of the biggest urban legends/outright myths ever.

Yeah, Dale Davis went toe-to-toe with Shaq in the 2000 NBA finals, but to call him a Shaq stopper is hilarious. Shaq barely broke a sweat in that series and averaged 38.0 ppg (to Davis' 8.7), 16.7 rpg (to Davis' 10.0) and 2.7 bpg (to Davis' 1.0). He easily won Finals MVP. His average GmSc (small sample size equivalent to PER) was 30.6. The second highest Laker was Kobe with a GmSc of 9.6. Shaq COMPLETELY dominated that series and destroyed Dale Davis.

Yeah, Davis was an all star in the East that year. Big deal, he actually had worse numbers (10.0/9.9/1.3 vs. 13.6/10.3/1.2) than Jamaal Magloire the year he made the all star team.

Sabonis and company actually did a MUCH better job slowing down Shaq that year in the WCF than IND and Davis did in the Finals.

Shaq's numbers against POR:
25.9 ppg, 12.4 rpg, 1.9 bpg, 20.6 GmSc

Shaq's numbers against IND:
38.0 ppg, 16.7 rpg, 2.4 bpg, 30.6 GmSc

Bringing in Dale Davis and expecting him to slow down Shaq was just plain insane.

BNM
It's not about whether Davis outscored Shaq. It's about whether he impacted Shaq's performance, which he did better than anyone else in the NBA.

And Davis wasn't brought in to replace Sabonis, he was brought in to supplement him because he was too old to go toe-to-toe with Shaq who played, what, 38, maybe 39 minutes per game? The formula wasn't DD>Shaq, it was DDvs.Shaq>BGorRWorJOvs.Shaq.
 
Greatest commercial series ever?

There have been some good ones, but those were so full of stars
It's not even close.

"Even when you're just showin' off!"
"Great seats, eh, buddy?"
"Hey, you're Boog Powell!"
"Don't drink the water!"
"I also love the easy-open cans!"
 
Shaq was just insane....

And, I have no idea where this myth of Dale Davis as a Shaq stopper came from. Shaq absolutely dominated that finals against IND. I think it was propaganda put out by our front office at the time of the trade. After that 4th quarter Game 7 melt down they probably thought most of us were too depressed to watch the Finals and didn't notice Shaq dropping 38 a game on Dale Davis.

That was Shaq's best season. He won the regular season MVP, the All Star Game MVP and the Finals MVP. He led the league in scoring. Posted his career high scoring average, second best rebounding season and tied for career best PER. He was a near unanimous MVP (Iverson got one vote) and came in second in DPOY.

But as dominant as he was, prior to the Dale Davis trade, we were already the best in the league at guarding him. In four regular season games, he only averaged 20.5 ppg against us and in the playoffs, he scored fewer ppg against us than anyone else, especially the Pacers.

Here's his scoring averages in the playoffs that year:

1st Round Opponent = SAC, 29.4 ppg
2nd Round Opponent = PHO, 30.2 ppg
WCF Opponent = POR, 25.9 ppg
NBA Finals Opponent = IND, 38.0 ppg

How can anyone possibly look at that and tell us with a straight face that the key to stopping Shaq is trading for Dale Davis?

BNM
 
It's not about whether Davis outscored Shaq. It's about whether he impacted Shaq's performance, which he did better than anyone else in the NBA.

Absolute bullshit. Shaq lit up Davis for 38 ppg in that finals series. We held him to 25.9 ppg in the WCF and 20.5 PPG in the regular season.

In 11 games against us that year Shaq only scored above his seasonal average against us twice, including Game 1 of the WCF when Dunleavy resorted to Hack a Shaq and sent him to the line 27 times. Other than that, he only cracked 28 points against us once in 10 other games.

In 8 games against IND that year, he scored above his seasonal average 7 times, including 7 games above 30 points and 3 above 40 (all in the Finals). His low scoring game in the 6-game Finals series against IND was 33 points. He scored 43, 40, 33, 35, 36 and 41 against IND in that series.

Shaq stopper my ass.

BNM
 
Super like.

After the 4th quarter melt down in Game 7 of the WCF, Whitsitt panicked. He'd built a championship team, with great depth and a good balance of proven veterans and hungry young players. That team was well stocked and still had room to improve.

But, one ice cold shooting 4th quarter caused him make some desperation moves that came back to bite him in the ass. Trading Brian Grant, the heart and soul of that team for a 350 lb., coked up Shawn Kemp was the worst. Kemp was nowhere near the player Whitsitt had drafted in SEA and his failure to realize that destroyed any chance that team had of winning anything.

Throw in trading Jermaine for DD, Rod Strickland, the sequel and special treatment for Detlef Schrempf destroyed team chemistry and any hope of ever advancing past the first round again. What a waste of talent. Whitsitt fell in love with the rush of making trades and signing guys we didn't need that fractured an already fragile locker room. Each move he made, made the team worse, not better.

Whitsitt was right about one thing he wasn't a chemistry major. Things were actually going well up until the all star break,. In spite of Pippen being injured, the team was cruising long. Stacy Augmon was playing the best ball of his career in place of Pippen, and while Kemp was a disappointment, he was not yet a distraction.

After the all star break the wheels fell off. There were already squabbles about playing time (Damon vs. Greg Anthony and Bonzie vs. Steve Smith), but things had not yet come to a head.

First, Pippen came back from his injury. Not that big a deal, by itself. It meant Augmon would have to move back to the bench, but at least he'd still get significant minutes, that he'd rightfully earned in Pippen's absence. But then, Whitsitt had the brilliant idea to lure Detlef Schrempf out of retirement by telling him he didn't have to practice with the team, would instantly be part of the rotation and could return to Seattle to be with his family between home games. So, Augmon went from productive starter to 3rd stringer getting zero minutes. On top of it, the guy who bumped him out of the rotation was getting special treatment.

Then Whitsitt gets the brilliant idea to sign Rod Strickland. Damon was already paranoid and whining about losing PT, especially in the 4th quarter, to Greg Anthony, and now they bring in yet another guy who has been a starting PG his entire career. It was completely unnecessary and further shattered the confidence of our starting PG.

And then, Kemp quit on the team and entered rehab. The team fell from 1st seed to 7th in just over a month and got swept in the first round. The franchise would not make it past the first round again for 14 years, when Damian Liliard hit his series winner with .9 seconds left on the clock against HOU.

I'm glad we finally have a GM that understands team chemistry and continuity. The Spurs have understood that for the last two decades. Nice to see we're catching up in that department.

BNM

As someone who was 12 at the time, i appreciate your play-by-play of what exactly happened. Thanks!
 
"...he's been very aggressive taking his outside shot..."

That sure sounds like an oxymoron to me.

LaNoah Vonlidge, we already have a big guy who actually shoots well. Why don't you try setting yourself apart by working on something this team lacks?
Who knows, maybe it's his only viable path into the rotation? I sometimes get the feeling that Stotts doesn't actually want guys on the block -- his first move was to push LaMarcus to foul-line-extended.
 
"...he's been very aggressive taking his outside shot..."

That sure sounds like an oxymoron to me.

LaNoah Vonlidge, we already have a big guy who actually shoots well. Why don't you try setting yourself apart by working on something this team lacks?

He's always had a jumper. Even since HS. You act like somethings wrong with that. All PFs need a jump shot. PFs all have to be well rounded now.
 
Who knows, maybe it's his only viable path into the rotation? I sometimes get the feeling that Stotts doesn't actually want guys on the block -- his first move was to push LaMarcus to foul-line-extended.

It sure seems that way. I think he is ok with one player down low on the block, but he certainly likes to spread the floor. And if the center is in the paint, the PF is rarely close until the shot is attempted. Which is why I think he really likes Meyers. Aminu with a reliable 3 pt shot would be ideal for Terry.
 
He's always had a jumper. Even since HS. You act like somethings wrong with that. All PFs need a jump shot. PFs all have to be well rounded now.
I was mostly just poking fun at the wording - I picture "aggressive" being an attack on the basket, whereas jump shots are more passive.

Also, the name LaNoah Vonlidge just came popped into my mind as a fully formed nick name and it made me giggle, so I wanted to use it. I don't dislike Noah at all (but neither am I on his bandwagon). I actually hope he gets consistent with his jumper because playing him at PF with Meyers at C could be a lot of fun! In an ideal world where they both develop they are our starting PF/C.
 

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