Walmart worker killed by frenzied shoppers

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Re: OT: Walmart worker killed by frenzied shoppers

And what facts might those be, pray tell? And do provide links.

barfo

Sorry, but I'm not letting you off the hook. Yiu made a statement of fact and I asked for the link. I'm still waiting. We all are. Now either you made it up to support your aebate or you didn't. Which is it?

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

As already stated, this death lays at the feet (pun not really intended) of those who trampled this person to death. It's not the store, not the manufacturers, not the unions, not President Bush... Here's a quote by an ex Wal Mart worker from a different message board:



I worked as a Wal Mart dept mgr for several years, quit six years ago - and the violence, rudeness, and hysteria were as much a part of the (unadvertised, undocumented) insanity of Black Friday then as they are now. It is simply an exacerbation of how many people behave every day of the year - talking on their cells, rude to cashiers who ask required questions, using their carts as weapons to break into lines, shoving their carts over and around others, letting their dogs wander around in the stores peeing on everything and becoming nasty when they are asked to leave, acting as if the stores' employees are mere servants to their ever-grasping desires.

Now that I no longer have to work it, I refuse to get out of bed until a reasonable hour on Black Friday - and then I sit in my robe at my computer and order what I want online, coffee in hand.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Re: OT: Walmart worker killed by frenzied shoppers

Sorry, but I'm not letting you off the hook. Yiu made a statement of fact and I asked for the link. I'm still waiting. We all are. Now either you made it up to support your aebate or you didn't. Which is it?

I know that my opinion on this matter is waiting to be swayed on whether barfo can provide links on something I can't even remember. It must have been important.

edit: okay I went back and looked. "Seems to me..." is hardly a statement of fact.

seem   /sim/ [seem]
–verb (used without object) 1. to appear to be, feel, do, etc.: She seems better this morning.
2. to appear to one's own senses, mind, observation, judgment, etc.: It seems to me that someone is calling.

He was obviously saying that something appeared apparent to him. He's already said it was an opinion. Does he have to provide a link proving it was his opinion? So why not drop it and get back to discussing how somebody died as a direct result of our consumer culture instead of nitpicking semantics with someone who you disagree with?

 

[bodyman5001]

Re: OT: Walmart worker killed by frenzied shoppers

I don't know. Walmart did nothing to encourage a frenzied horde of shoppers to assemble Friday morning?
Seems to me they did everything they could to assemble a frenzied mob. They just didn't want it to be quite that frenzied. Inciting a riot is a crime.

I'm sure this is the first time I've ever used frenzied so many times in one post. Frenzied, frenzied, frenzied.

barfo

People keep talking about facts and other trivial things but what I want to know is what your opinion does to establish that WalMart INTENDED to incite a riot?

In my opinion WalMart would never intend to do such a thing as it would hurt their sales, the most important thing to them.

Using this logic, Rodney King should have been convicted of inciting a riot.

 

[Денг Гордон]

Re: OT: Walmart worker killed by frenzied shoppers

People keep talking about facts and other trivial things but what I want to know is what your opinion does to establish that WalMart INTENDED to incite a riot?

In my opinion WalMart would never intend to do such a thing as it would hurt their sales, the most important thing to them.

Using this logic, Rodney King should have been convicted of inciting a riot.

Yes. This really isn't hard to understand. Walmart put items on sale, because they wanted to rake in big profits. Idiotic people, killed a man, because they felt getting to a blu-ray player or something first was more important than another person's life, so they had to tear down a door and trample him.

What is Walmart suppose to do, give the employees machine guns to shoot down these idiots?

 

[Ed O]

Thoughts:

1. As bad as it is for the 1st, or, say, 10th person to line up to get into Wal-Mart for Black Friday... what is the 1756th person thinking? There's a lot of fucking people there, and you need a $9 Incredible Hulk DVD that badly?

2. I hope that Obama can bring the kind of change that allows us all to go to Kohls, rather than having to settle for Best Buy and Circuit City. The economy is really in shambles when we're reduced to shopping at big box electronics stores.

Ed O.

 

[bodyman5001]

Re: OT: Walmart worker killed by frenzied shoppers

Yes. This really isn't hard to understand. Walmart put items on sale, because they wanted to rake in big profits. Idiotic people, killed a man, because they felt getting to a blu-ray player or something first was more important than another person's life, so they had to tear down a door and trample him.

What is Walmart suppose to do, give the employees machine guns to shoot down these idiots?

I guess it is hard to understand for some people. WalMart should be taken to civil court.

If WalMart is to blame in criminal court, then so is yahoo and my local news station. They promoted these sales as NEWS stories.

Show me one thing that proves that WalMart wanted to start a riot. Common sense tells you that they wouldn't.

 

[Денг Гордон]

Re: OT: Walmart worker killed by frenzied shoppers

I guess it is hard to understand for some people. WalMart should be taken to civil court.

If WalMart is to blame in criminal court, then so is yahoo and my local news station. They promoted these sales as NEWS stories.

Show me one thing that proves that WalMart wanted to start a riot. Common sense tells you that they wouldn't.

Shouldn't Walmart be the one taking people to civil court for damaging their door?

 

[bodyman5001]

Re: OT: Walmart worker killed by frenzied shoppers

Shouldn't Walmart be the one taking people to civil court for damaging their door?

Don't think for a second that they won't.

 

[DaRizzle]

I wonder if there will be any way of figuring out the identity of the "shoppers" to blame...

 

[barfo]

Re: OT: Walmart worker killed by frenzied shoppers

Sorry, but I'm not letting you off the hook. Yiu made a statement of fact and I asked for the link.

Which "statement of fact" are you referring to, exactly? (please provide a link).

I'm still waiting. We all are.

Everyone is waiting? Can you provide a link to back up that "statement of fact"?

Now either you made it up to support your aebate or you didn't. Which is it?

I don't know. What are you talking about, anyway? Made what up?

barfo

 

[barfo]

Re: OT: Walmart worker killed by frenzied shoppers

People keep talking about facts and other trivial things but what I want to know is what your opinion does to establish that WalMart INTENDED to incite a riot?

My opinion doesn't do anything to establish intent. My opinion is not admissible in a court of law.

In my opinion WalMart would never intend to do such a thing as it would hurt their sales, the most important thing to them.

I agree. I do not think they intended to cause a riot. If I get drunk and run you over with my Hummer, is it ok as long as I didn't intend to hurt you?

Using this logic, Rodney King should have been convicted of inciting a riot.

The police officers, not Rodney King, would have been a better choice for that analogy.

barfo

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

Re: OT: Walmart worker killed by frenzied shoppers

Shouldn't Walmart be the one taking people to civil court for damaging their door?

Or their employee, for that matter.

 

[bodyman5001]

Re: OT: Walmart worker killed by frenzied shoppers

My opinion doesn't do anything to establish intent. My opinion is not admissible in a court of law.



I agree. I do not think they intended to cause a riot. If I get drunk and run you over with my Hummer, is it ok as long as I didn't intend to hurt you?



The police officers, not Rodney King, would have been a better choice for that analogy.

barfo

I am not a lawyer, but I watch enough tv to know that this analogy doesn't apply.

You getting drunk and running over someone with a Hummer is something that you risk doing by drinking. That is a reasonable thing for you to know is possible.

Knowing that people will get killed by having a good Christmas sale is quite a stretch.

What if someone got killed at a pre election Obama gathering? Would Obama be in jail now?

Back to Rodney King, he should have known that it was possible that the police would pull him over because he is black. He should have stayed home forever because of the possibility that a riot would start.

I guess we should all stop doing everything and stay home. WalMart is a fucked up company IMO but saying that they were criminal in what they did is silly.

 

[TradeNurkicNow]

His name was Jdimytai Damour and this is how he died.

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

There are easily ways in which Walmart might be found liable in my opinion...I'm not syaing they are, just that without the facts it is not as cut and dried / black and white as you might think at 1st.

These are hypotheticals...they may or may not be true, but if they are, I think Wal-Mart WOULD be partially liable for the death:
If they created an event where an anxious mob of 2000 people assembles outside their door, they have seen that in past years the event is unruly and the people enter in a semi-frenzy, they have had injuries (though less serious) in prior years, they do nothing to manage the crowd and don't use crowd control techniques such as fences, security, an organized presence outside the store, no organized que, etc. If some or all of that is true, I think a reasonable person would realize that a more serious injury would be likely...and they'd be liable.

Even more damaging would be if they made a conscious decision to allow these minor mob scenes to take place in the name of free publicity. Of course they didn't expect someone to be killed...but the mass crowd shots that are shown on the TV news each year always mention the store and that the deals are so good people are lining up outside the store...

Just food for thought...

Past incidents:
http://www.setexasrecord.com/news/2...t-for-2005-black-friday-pepper-spray-incident
http://www.uwire.com/Article.aspx?id=3582174 <--some PS3 some Black Fri.
http://workbench.cadenhead.org/news/2814/black-friday-more-than-i-bargained

 

[DaRizzle]

This pisses me off that people want to sue the store over this! Are you people serious! People have their own minds and chose to break down the door. PEOPLE trampled the guy to death, not a corporation.

 

[Fogojam]

From Blazer_Hippie's second link:

1. New Putnam, Conn.: Armed robbery

A man waiting in line for a PS3 during the 2006 release was hospitalized when two robbers demanded the $2,500 the man had brought with him to purchase several of the consoles, shot him in the chest and fled. The man initially refused to leave the line despite his injury, but paramedics eventually convinced him to go to the hospital. He survived the incident.

Damn, thats some dedication.

 

[barfo]

Re: OT: Walmart worker killed by frenzied shoppers

You getting drunk and running over someone with a Hummer is something that you risk doing by drinking. That is a reasonable thing for you to know is possible.

Knowing that people will get killed by having a good Christmas sale is quite a stretch.

What if my business, as a promotion, said that the first 3 people in the door the Friday after Thanksgiving would receive $10 million cash? And let's assume that I provided no crowd control whatsoever.

Would you assert that I was completely blameless if someone got hurt?

Isn't the difference between that and WalMart just a matter of degree?

What if someone got killed at a pre election Obama gathering? Would Obama be in jail now?

It's hard to imagine a scenario where Obama himself would be in jail. However, if he knowingly failed to provide adequate crowd control, his organization might be liable.

barfo

 

[DaRizzle]

Isn't the difference between that and WalMart just a matter of degree?

Yeah...about 180

 

[barfo]

Yeah...about 180

Good answer, but incorrect.

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

Re: OT: Walmart worker killed by frenzied shoppers

What if my business, as a promotion, said that the first 3 people in the door the Friday after Thanksgiving would receive $10 million cash? And let's assume that I provided no crowd control whatsoever.

Would you assert that I was completely blameless if someone got hurt?

barfo

Yes, unless you lied about the money.

And I guarantee someone would get hurt, but that's to be expected when you're talking instant riches.

Black Friday sales are historically higher prices than you will see 3 weeks from now, so only an idiot who has allowed themselves to be brainwashed by advertisers would waste the gas to participate.

Maybe that makes it a violation of the ADA? Or a hate crime against retards?

Had they all managed to trample each other to death, leaving no survivors, the average American IQ would have spiked a bit.

 

[DaRizzle]

Yes, unless you lied about the money.

Oh jesus....Yes he would! Its a different situation. You can tell its a different situation than the Walmart one by doing one thing.

Use common sense!

Common sense says if you are gonna give 3 people 10 mil each first come first served then YES...there will be problems with the crowd control

Common sense DOES NOT say if you have a black friday sale you are aiding in starting a riot/trampling.


Might as well stop letting people go to sporting events. Getting a large group of people together is the first stage of a riot!

 

[MARIS61]

His name was Jdimytai Damour and this is how he died.

It appears from that photo that all the stampeding shoppers are black.

Coincidence?

 

[MARIS61]

Free BRoy Jerseys to the first 100 ticketholders at next Blazers game.

Liable, or not?

 

[barfo]

Oh jesus....Yes he would! Its a different situation. You can tell its a different situation than the Walmart one by doing one thing.

Use common sense!

Common sense says if you are gonna give 3 people 10 mil each first come first served then YES...there will be problems with the crowd control

Common sense DOES NOT say if you have a black friday sale you are aiding in starting a riot/trampling.

And yet, there were clearly problems with crowd control at WalMart. Apparently your common sense is not a good predictor of riots.

Might as well stop letting people go to sporting events. Getting a large group of people together is the first stage of a riot!

If you get a large group of people together, and fail to provide crowd control appropriate for the situation, you run the risk of having a riot. WalMart clearly did not provide adequate crowd control. WalMart gathered the crowd. And yet you hold them blameless.

barfo

 

[DaRizzle]

And yet you hold them blameless.

For holding a black friday sale like 1000's of other shops...yes...they are completely blameless. The actual people who trampled him are to blame. Yes it will be hard to say which "shoppers" started the frenzied pushing but its still those PEOPLES fault and nobody/company else.

 

[MARIS61]

And yet, there were clearly problems with crowd control at WalMart. Apparently your common sense is not a good predictor of riots.

If you get a large group of people together, and fail to provide crowd control appropriate for the situation, you run the risk of having a riot. WalMart clearly did not provide adequate crowd control. WalMart gathered the crowd. And yet you hold them blameless.

barfo

The crowd gathered itself, they were not rounded up like some cattle drive. Most were there before WalMart was even open.

WalMart advertised low prices. So did Sears, Target and shops on Rodeo Drive.

Larger crowds gathered in thousands of places all over America at the same time, at many other WalMarts even, and yet none of them murdered anyone.

These particular persons (murderers, IMO) chose to shop at WalMart. Maybe it's a real bad neighborhood with a higher concentration of real bad people. That's the most likely explanation.

WalMart is open 365 days a year, in hundreds of cities, and has never had anything like this happen before. Never.

What are the odds that dozens, maybe hundreds of murderers would gather at this place at this time and murder a complete stranger? How could anyone anticipate that?

They need to arrested, prosecuted, and punished as any other murderer would be.

 

[barfo]

For holding a black friday sale like 1000's of other shops...yes...they are completely blameless. The actual people who trampled him are to blame. Yes it will be hard to say which "shoppers" started the frenzied pushing but its still those PEOPLES fault

Of course it is those people's fault. No one would deny that.

and nobody/company else.

That's not at all clear to me. I'd have to know more about what, if any, crowd control measures they took. From the results, I think it is reasonable to assume that their measures were inadequate.

barfo

 

[barfo]

The crowd gathered itself, they were not rounded up like some cattle drive. Most were there before WalMart was even open.

WalMart advertised low prices. So did Sears, Target and shops on Rodeo Drive.

Larger crowds gathered in thousands of places all over America at the same time, at many other WalMarts even, and yet none of them murdered anyone.

And yet this happened. If the conditions were the same everywhere, why did it happen there?

These particular persons (murderers, IMO) chose to shop at WalMart. Maybe it's a real bad neighborhood with a higher concentration of real bad people. That's the most likely explanation.

If so, was WalMart unaware that this store was located in a bad neighborhood? Were they unaware of the type of people who were their likely customers that Friday morning?

WalMart is open 365 days a year, in hundreds of cities, and has never had anything like this happen before. Never.

What are the odds that dozens, maybe hundreds of murderers would gather at this place at this time and murder a complete stranger? How could anyone anticipate that?

Now you are back to arguing that it was just chance, and could have happened anywhere, at any store. Either shoppers at that particular WalMart are evil, and thus this could have been prevented, or it was a random event that could have happened anywhere (all shoppers are potential murderers).

They need to arrested, prosecuted, and punished as any other murderer would be.

Well, probably manslaughter or something, not murder, but I agree they need to be punished.

barfo