We have too many bigs

[blue9]

We have one center, three Power Forwards (one of whom kind of plays a little center), and a 7'1" shooting guard.

I look at it as we have one Center and two rookies. Aminu, Ed, Vonleh, and Meyers can kick rocks!

 

[dviss1]

I'm seeing him running the team when he is on the court. I see him moving without the ball and playing defense which our guards have a problem with.

 

[dviss1]

I look at it as we have one Center and two rookies. Aminu, Ed, Vonleh, and Meyers can kick rocks!

Wow. Ed can "kick rocks"?

That's cold.

 

[blue9]

Wow. Ed can "kick rocks"?

That's cold.

Eh. I like him. But I don't think he has much of a role on a high performing team. As I said in the Ed Davis thread, I wouldn't mind keeping him so long as he's even cheaper than he is now, and he's a 3rd string big.
I also still see some value in Vonleh - I like his defense. But, again, he doesn't have much of a role on a high performing team.
So, ideally, all of those I listed are traded for an upgrade.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[Orion Bailey]

NO IS waiting on the Melo thing to finalize. I know this.

 

[e_blazer]

I look at it as we have one Center and two rookies. Aminu, Ed, Vonleh, and Meyers can kick rocks!

Is kicking rocks a euphemism for defending like Draymond?

 

[Eastoff]

NO IS waiting on the Melo thing to finalize. I know this.

You know this is, or you believe it to your core?

 

[masieo]

Rather have ONE Audi A6 4.2L... than 6 Hyundais!

I know you have have a thing for Audi, but that is a garbage comparison. Give me the 6 Hyundai. I 'll take a reliable car(player) that is faster, lighter, cheaper. The Audi is slow (5.9 to 60) heavy 4211lbs, unreliable, expensive to operate and maintain and handles poorly, but hey its got an Audi badge.

 

[BonesJones]

I also think Olshey is waiting on Melo, and probably has other deal(s) lined up if it doesn't go through. I could see a trade for someone like Hezonja for example. Roster just seems incomplete. We've signed four guards in the past couple of weeks. Could be just filling out the Training camp roster. Could be also be preparing for open roster spots via trade.

Definitely could be preparing for open roster spots. Goodwin, Morrow, and Briscoe are much better than other invitee groups we've had.

 

[dviss1]

Rather have ONE Audi A6 4.2L... than 6 Hyundais!

I liked this before I realized that Audi is only 56K.

You didn't specify which Hyundai.

A Hyundai Elantra Sport (automatic) is $22,750

Do the math:

$136,500 > $56K

 

[Schilly]

I think Aminu was our starting PF because we didn't have an alternative, he won't be this year. Saying we have too many bigs is a bit misleading. Do we have several on our roster? It seems like it, but if you think of Roster size as 15 meaning with even distribution 3 deep at each position, which never really happens in real life. We can however combine the 4 and 5 and say about 6 players on the roster at those 2 positions is about right. Right now I see 2 centers (Nurk and Biebs) and 4 PF's (NV, CS, ED, ZC). I also see Aminu as being our backup 3. What we don't have is an established rotation at the 4/5 that as fans we can identify yet.

 

[Denny Crane]

I think Aminu was our starting PF because we didn't have an alternative, he won't be this year. Saying we have too many bigs is a bit misleading. Do we have several on our roster? It seems like it, but if you think of Roster size as 15 meaning with even distribution 3 deep at each position, which never really happens in real life. We can however combine the 4 and 5 and say about 6 players on the roster at those 2 positions is about right. Right now I see 2 centers (Nurk and Biebs) and 4 PF's (NV, CS, ED, ZC). I also see Aminu as being our backup 3. What we don't have is an established rotation at the 4/5 that as fans we can identify yet.

Aminu was a starting PF because he could shoot 3s reasonably well for a PF. He's got the length to be a small ball PF. The Blazers clearly went into the season with a forward combo of Mo and Aminu, the same combo that got us to the 2nd round of the playoffs.

That's how I saw it.

 

[masieo]

I liked this before I realized that Audi is only 56K.

You didn't specify which Hyundai.

A Hyundai Elantra Sport (automatic) is $22,750

Do the math:

$136,500 > $56K

Check out the new Hyundai Genesis G70 367hp twin turbo v6 making 367hp 0-60 in 4.5 seconds for an est. $32,000 (less than an Audi A4) Sorry I'm a mechanic and car nerd.

 

[dviss1]

I think Aminu was our starting PF because we didn't have an alternative, he won't be this year. Saying we have too many bigs is a bit misleading. Do we have several on our roster? It seems like it, but if you think of Roster size as 15 meaning with even distribution 3 deep at each position, which never really happens in real life. We can however combine the 4 and 5 and say about 6 players on the roster at those 2 positions is about right. Right now I see 2 centers (Nurk and Biebs) and 4 PF's (NV, CS, ED, ZC). I also see Aminu as being our backup 3. What we don't have is an established rotation at the 4/5 that as fans we can identify yet.

Before we got Nurk, Stotts said Aminu was our best post defender.

"Aminu's real value comes on defense where he proved to be the Blazers' most versatile defender. He didn't defend point guards much, but he got chances matching up against both wing spots and guarding power forwards. Terry Stotts called him the Blazers' best post defender during the team's playoff run, which could suggest that his future with the team is mostly playing power forward. He was the Blazers' highest paid player last season, but moving forward he becomes a bargain. He's set to make less than $8 million over the next three seasons and has proven he can be part of the rotation at either forward spot."

 

[dviss1]

Check out the new Hyundai Genesis G70 367hp twin turbo v6 making 367hp 0-60 in 4.5 seconds for an est. $32,000 (less than an Audi A4) Sorry I'm a mechanic and car nerd.

I know about the Genesis. I didn't wanna show him up that bad.

 

[Schilly]

I understand the justification for why Aminu was the starting 4, but I also think we were looking at the options of a very unproven Vonleh, Meyers who hasn't looked good as a 4 period, and potentially Ed Davis, who we still needed as a backup 5. In other words yes he was our best defender at the 4, heading into last year, but this year I think things have changed, and a lot of that has to do with the impact Nurkic has had.

 

[Denny Crane]

Check out the new Hyundai Genesis G70 367hp twin turbo v6 making 367hp 0-60 in 4.5 seconds for an est. $32,000 (less than an Audi A4) Sorry I'm a mechanic and car nerd.

I raced one of those in my stage 1 tuned GTI and it was a draw.

 

[Denny Crane]

I understand the justification for why Aminu was the starting 4, but I also think we were looking at the options of a very unproven Vonleh, Meyers who hasn't looked good as a 4 period, and potentially Ed Davis, who we still needed as a backup 5. In other words yes he was our best defender at the 4, heading into last year, but this year I think things have changed, and a lot of that has to do with the impact Nurkic has had.

They re-signed Leonard to a $10M contract. I think they expected him to play a lot.

 

[blue9]

I understand the justification for why Aminu was the starting 4, but I also think we were looking at the options of a very unproven Vonleh, Meyers who hasn't looked good as a 4 period, and potentially Ed Davis, who we still needed as a backup 5. In other words yes he was our best defender at the 4, heading into last year, but this year I think things have changed, and a lot of that has to do with the impact Nurkic has had.

And by the end of the season Vonleh was the better defender.

 

[dviss1]

And by the end of the season Vonleh was the better defender.

Aminu had an injury last year. Which is the only reason why Vonleh took his job. So slide that Aminu hate to the side.

 

[blue9]

Aminu had an injury last year. Which is the only reason why Vonleh took his job. So slide that Aminu hate to the side.

Never!

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I think Aminu was our starting PF because we didn't have an alternative, he won't be this year.

I disagree. The league is currently favoring small-ball lineups where your 4 has to be able to move fast and switch a lot and it's less important for him to bang in the post. Aminu is also by far our best defender, but you can't really play him at the wing because he can't handle the ball. This is a bit like saying "Draymond was the Warriors' starting PF and often C because they didn't have an alternative."

Saying we have too many bigs is a bit misleading. Do we have several on our roster? It seems like it, but if you think of Roster size as 15 meaning with even distribution 3 deep at each position,

Again, I think this is old-fashioned thinking. You want versatile players these days (like Draymond Green) who can play multiple positions, particularly on D. It's not as if the vast majority of teams have ANY old-school style center on court ALL the time. Meanwhile Nurk and Leonard can ONLY play the 5. I think we drafted Collins specifically because he's a new-school kind of big - can defend multiple positions and is mobile. Meanwhile Swanigan is again kind of old-school. There's a reason he keeps getting compared with Zach Randolph - it's because there just aren't that many players like him left making an impact in the NBA.

I also see Aminu as being our backup 3.

Again, I disagree. Aminu struggles at the 3 (on offense) in today's NBA. He just doesn't have the skills. But his value on defense is irreplaceable given how poor the other Blazers are at it.

Finally: while I love Ed, and at his best he was a really good plus/minus guy for us, I understand why Stotts never really played him more than 20 mpg, because you can't have total non-shooters on the floor these days.

 

[Boob-No-More]

If we end up in the same situation as last playoffs, we don't have enough "bigs"

Bigs means PF and C. Some of the guys you mention play both positions.

This was the first thing I thought of when I read the original post. Having a surplus of bigs on opening day is preferable to having a shortage come next April. Given this teams' history of injured big men, I'd say there really isn't any such thing as too many bigs.

Here's our starting front court's production from last season's first round playoff series:

Game 1:
Starting Center: Noah Voneh - 2 points on 1-5 shooting, 5 rebounds
Starting PF: Maurice Harkless - 11 points on 5-13 shooting, 3 rebounds
Combined: 13 points on 6-18 (.333 FG%) shooting and 8 rebounds

Game 2:
Starting Center: Noah Voneh - 3 points on 1-3 shooting, 3 rebounds
Starting PF: Maurice Harkless - 15 point on 5-14 shooting, 8 rebounds
Combined: 18 points on 6-17 (.353 FG%) shooting and 11 rebounds

Game 3:
Starting Center: Jusuf Nurkic - 2 points on 1-3 shooting, 11 rebounds
Starting PF: Maurice Harkless - 1 point on 0-4 shooting, 1 rebounds
Combined: 3 points on 1-7 (.143 FG%) shooting and 12 rebounds

Game 4:
Starting Center: Meyers Leonard - 0 points on 0-2 shooting, 3 rebounds
Starting PF: Maurice Harkless - 2 points on 0-3 shooting, 1 rebounds
Combined: 2 points on 0-5 (.000 FG%) shooting and 4 rebounds

4 Game Series Averages:
Starting Center: 1.75 ppg , .214 FG%, 5.5 rpg
Starting PF: 7.25 points, .294 FG%, 3.25 rpg
Combined: 9.0 ppg, .255 FG%, 8.75 rpg

That's just downright pathetic, no matter how you look at it. Our starting centers combined to make exactly 3 field goals in a 4 game series. We couldn't score inside, couldn't stop GSW from scoring in the paint and got killed on the boards. We flat out sucked at everything you need from your starting front court.

Because of a shortage of healthy bigs, Stotts elected to play both Harkless and Vonleh up one position at PF and center for much of the series. That failed miserably. We did get 11 rebounds and some solid defense and a +8 from a hobbled Nurk in 16:40 of Game 3, but it was not nearly enough to overcome our lack of healthy big men. So, Stotts tried mixing it up and starting Meyers at the 5 in Game 4 to give us some more size, and that was an even bigger failure than starting the undersized Vonleh at center.

No wonder Neil used our 3 first round picks to draft 2 bigs. If nothing else, we just need more big bodies as insurance against injuries. No way in hell should Mo Harklesss ever be a starting PF in a playoff series. He just doesn't have the size/strength to guard power forwards (even in today's stretch-4, small ball line ups) and he's not a good rebounder.

So, I'm totally cool with having "too many" bigs on opening night. Let these guys all fight it out for minutes. Vonleh, Nurk and Davis are all in contract years and the two rookies will be fighting for minutes. This internal competition is good. The cream will rise to the top, and if there are no significant injuries come late February, we can consider moving someone like Ed and/or Vonleh (both are expiring contracts and may not be back anyway) to improve our back court depth.

BNM

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I understand the justification for why Aminu was the starting 4, but I also think we were looking at the options of a very unproven Vonleh, Meyers who hasn't looked good as a 4 period, and potentially Ed Davis, who we still needed as a backup 5. In other words yes he was our best defender at the 4, heading into last year, but this year I think things have changed, and a lot of that has to do with the impact Nurkic has had.

Agreed that Vonleh looked marginally less of a bust when he was playing next to Nurkic, but Aminu is still the better player at just about everything except maybe baseline 15-footers.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I'd say there really isn't any such thing as too many bigs.

Well, it kind of depends, doesn't it? Imagine having 15 Meyers Leonards.

And besides that, it's not fantasy basketball. Players have to feel that they've got a chance to get in the rotation without doing a Tonya Harding on the guys ahead of them or their morale drops - see Nurkic in Denver. Plus I think certain kind of bigs just don't work in today's NBA. If they did, then Boban would be playing 35 minutes a night and averaging 20/15.

Also: remember Nurk got injured but we were +8 in the minutes he played.
ALSO: remember the team we were playing. Golden State will run you into the ground if you try to put plodders out there. Maybe you could get a few easy buckets putting a Boban out there, but then they'd be laying the ball in on the other end before he crossed halfcourt. Leonard only ever looked good for us against Memphis, who had one of the very few old-school frontcourts out there.

 

[MarAzul]

The league is currently favoring small-ball lineups

Is this a group think thing?

 

[masieo]

I raced one of those in my stage 1 tuned GTI and it was a draw.

You left out vital information. Was you flat bill hat forwards or backwards, also were your ears tucked into the hat? I really can't wait to see how our bigs situation plays out, it should be fun to watch if nothing else.

 

[blue9]

Agreed that Vonleh looked marginally less of a bust when he was playing next to Nurkic, but Aminu is still the better player at just about everything except maybe baseline 15-footers.

I don't think it's nearly as cut/dry as you make it out to be. An argument could be made that Aminu is better. But that's all it would be - an argument.

The difference in Ortg and Drtg favors Vonleh.
VORP favors Aminu.
BPM favors Aminu.
WS/48 favors Vonleh.
WS tilted to Aminu.
FG% in a landslide to Vonleh.
RB% goes to Vonleh.

Aminu has had one season where his Ortg outweighed his Drtg...and it was the season before we signed him. Interestingly enough, it was the one season he was primarily a bench player (only 3 games started). Otherwise he's been a net negative his entire career.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Check out DRPM
(Vonleh's is 1.03 and his RPM is -2.99)