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At worst (well, the "worst" that assumes he is fully recovered from injury) he provides some usable depth. A ~12 PER is poor for a starter but isn't too bad for a reserve. If he can be a solid backup, he'll upgrade the team's depth and allow them to use Outlaw more at power forward (which is where he's generally played best).

In addition, he gives the team one more "x-factor." The overwhelming likelihood is that he won't be an impact player, but there remains the chance of a break-out, in which case the team suddenly becomes an absolutely elite team. It's always nice to have that lottery ticket, even though chances are it won't win.

Then there are all the in-between scenarios...like his improving slightly and becoming league-average. People were impressed by the Spurs adding Richard Jefferson. If Webster attains average status (~15 PER), he'll be providing the same caliber of contributions. Always good to add another average player to the roster, since no team has 12-15 players who are average or better.
 
Then there are all the in-between scenarios...like his improving slightly and becoming league-average. People were impressed by the Spurs adding Richard Jefferson. If Webster attains average status (~15 PER), he'll be providing the same caliber of contributions. Always good to add another average player to the roster, since no team has 12-15 players who are average or better.

I hadn't realized Jefferson had a PER of 15. I figured that since he averaged 20 ppg, he was an above average player. Interesting.

I've compared the move to the Michael Finley acquisition a few years ago, and it seems even more appropriate now. MF had a PER of 14 in Dallas, and has wallowed between 11.3 and 13.7 since moving to San Antonio.

Interesting, Webster had a negative PER last year! -8. lol
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/webstma02.html

Anyway, I don't mean to derail this thread. I'm happy to have Webster back. But there are at least 8 guys on the team right now who are better than him. (Roy, Fernandez, Aldridge, Oden, Blake, Batum, Outlaw, Miller, Przybilla.)

He and Bayless are in the same boat. The only difference is that Bayless has never really felt the security of regularly scheduled NBA minutes and Webster has. It's going to be tough for Webster to accept that on most nights he'll probably only be getting garbage minutes or used situationally for times when we need an extra three point shooter for a minute or two. It's not like the guy is a psychological rock to begin with.

If there's one guy I expect to see a soulful article by Quick about a player's struggle with getting the coach's attention and playing time (aka "a whinefest"), it's probably going to be with Webster.
 
I hadn't realized Jefferson had a PER of 15. I figured that since he averaged 20 ppg, he was an above average player. Interesting.

I've compared the move to the Michael Finley acquisition a few years ago, and it seems even more appropriate now. MF had a PER of 14 in Dallas, and has wallowed between 11.3 and 13.7 since moving to San Antonio.

Interesting, Webster had a negative PER last year! -8. lol
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/webstma02.html

Anyway, I don't mean to derail this thread. I'm happy to have Webster back. But there are at least 8 guys on the team right now who are better than him. (Roy, Fernandez, Aldridge, Oden, Blake, Batum, Outlaw, Miller, Przybilla.)

He and Bayless are in the same boat. The only difference is that Bayless has never really felt the security of regularly scheduled NBA minutes and Webster has. It's going to be tough for Webster to accept that on most nights he'll probably only be getting garbage minutes or used situationally for times when we need an extra three point shooter for a minute or two. It's not like the guy is a psychological rock to begin with.

If there's one guy I expect to see a soulful article by Quick about a player's struggle with getting the coach's attention and playing time (aka "a whinefest"), it's probably going to be with Webster.



15.45 to be exact for Jefferson, who has never had a PER as low as Webster's in his entire career.
 
At worst (well, the "worst" that assumes he is fully recovered from injury) he provides some usable depth. A ~12 PER is poor for a starter but isn't too bad for a reserve. If he can be a solid backup, he'll upgrade the team's depth and allow them to use Outlaw more at power forward (which is where he's generally played best).

You beat me to it. I was going to make the exact same point. Martell will be 10th or 11th on our depth chart. How many teams have a 22-year old with experience as a starter in the NBA as their 10th or 11th man?

When considering PER, you must also consider the role that player played. It's much harder to maintain a high PER as a starter playing 28 - 30MPG than it is as a back-up playing 12 - 15MPG. As a 20/21-year old starter, Martell had to play the bulk of his minutes against some of the best players in the league. Defending, and being defended by guys like LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce, Ron Artest, etc. is a lot harder than racking up stats against other teams bench players. For this reason, assuming Martell is coming off the bench and playing many of his minutes against other bench players, I see him posting a career best PER this year. I would not be surprised to see him have a PER > 15.0 this season, but for a 10th man, I'd be happy with a 14.0.

Also, I think the players he's on the court with will also have a positive impact on his PER. Martell has never had the benefit of playing with a center that commands double teams, or a point guard that is good at creating for others. The centers he's played with, as a starter, have been Theo Ratliff, Joel Przybilla, Jamaal Magloire and briefly LaMarcus Aldridge as a rookie. None of those guys were dominant low post players that commanded double teams whenver they got the ball in deep. The starting PGs he has been paired with have been Sebastian Telfair, Jarrett Jack and Steve Blake. None of them are particularly skilled at creating easy scoring opportunities for their teammates. I'm not sure how long Nate will stick with bringing Greg Oden and Andre Miller off the bench, but any time Martell Webster spends on the court with those two players can only help his production. Oden drawing double teams will create more open looks for Webster, and Andre Miller will do a good job of getting Webster the ball in a position to score.

Also, when Martell first joined the Blazers, they were a pretty crappy team. They won 21 games his rookie year. He was not surrounded by a lot of quality players. The players with the two highest PERs on the team that season were Ruben Patterson (17.0) and Zach Randolph (16.9) - not exactly guys who are known for making their teammates better.

Martell's second year, they added two very talented rookies and won 32 games, but they still had a lot of below average players (Jamaal Magloire, Ime Udoka, Juan Dixon, etc.) playing big minutes.

Now look at the guys Martell will be potentially playing with on the "2nd Unit" this year:

Greg Oden - 2008-09 PER = 18.1
Travis Outlaw - 2008-09 PER = 15.1
Rudy Fernandez - 2008-09 PER = 15.4
Andre Miller - 2008-09 PER = 18.6

Playing with that much talent beside him should help Martell's growth and his confidence. I know Nate rarely plays the 2nd unit as a unit during games, but those will be the guys Martell will likely be teamed with during practice (at least early in the season - according to Nat'es comments). And, since Nate almost always leaves one of Aldridge or Roy on the court with the 2nd unit, all the better.

The two things that have been holding Webster back have been a lack of confidence and not moving well without the ball. When he plays with confidence and is working to get open, he is a much better offensive player. I know the sample size is extremely small, but if you watch the replay of the 24-point quarter against Utah, you will see that Martell was constantly on the move, he was running off multiple screens, attacking the defense, drawing fouls, etc. Also, again very limited sample size, but he was also very active moving without the ball in the preseason game against Sacramento last year (yeah, I KNOW it was preseason, and yes I KNOW is was against Sacramento). He also seemd to work very well with Rudy in that game.

So, I think playing with better, more talented teammates, both in practice and in the games will help Martell's confidence. I also think playing with guys like Andre Miller and Rudy Fernandez will encourage him to be more active and move without the ball more. I think a confident, active Martell Webster coming off the bench can be a huge plus for the Blazers. I look forward to seeing how well he performs with his new teammates.

BNM
 
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I don't think anyone will disagree that Nash totally mucked up that draft.

That doesn't change the reality that Webster was the #6 pick, and the guy the Blazers prefered to Paul and Williams. That is the yardstick he will be measured by...and if he can't stand the heat, he better go flip burgers or bag groceries for a living!

I must say, there is a real irony here. Zach was run out of town for his imperfections, and many people would gladly do the same with Outlaw....and yet both of those guys were drafted in the 20s. Webster was drafted 6th - but is held to a *lower* standard as a player. :dunno:

Like I said in my post, he was drafted too high and you, apparently along with others, value him at that level.

I see him maybe able to attain to a player that was drafted later, like a 15-20 level player. If he somehow manages to attain his draft level then this is a bonus because my expectations are not as high as yours.

It is also a bonus that he is expected to be able to contribute this year.

He did win one game (Utah) in the last season he played. If he adds one game this year we would not likely have won, he is valuable to the team. I expect he will do at least that this year.
 
You beat me to it. I was going to make the exact same point. Martell will be 10th or 11th on our depth chart. How many teams have a 22-year old with experience as a starter in the NBA as their 10th or 11th man?

When considering PER, you must also consider the role that player played. It's much harder to maintain a high PER as a starter playing 28 - 30MPG than it is as a back-up playing 12 - 15MPG. As a 20/21-year old starter, Martell had to play the bulk of his minutes against some of the best players in the league. Defending, and being defended by guys like LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, Paul Pierce, Ron Artest, etc. is a lot harder than racking up stats against other teams bench players. For this reason, assuming Martell is coming off the bench and playing many of his minutes against other bench players, I see him posting a career best PER this year. I would not be surprised to see him have a PER > 15.0 this season, but for a 10th man, I'd be happy with a 14.0.

Also, I think the players he's on the court with will also have a positive impact on his PER. Martell has never had the benefit of playing with a center that commands double teams, or a point guard that is good at creating for others. The centers he's played with, as a starter, have been Theo Ratliff, Joel Przybilla, Jamaal Magloire and briefly LaMarcus Aldridge as a rookie. None of those guys were dominant low post players that commanded double teams whenver they got the ball in deep. The starting PGs he has been paired with have been Sebastian Telfair, Jarrett Jack and Steve Blake. None of them are particularly skilled at creating easy scoring opportunities for their teammates. I'm not sure how long Nate will stick with bringing Greg Oden and Andre Miller off the bench, but any time Martell Webster spends on the court with those two players can only help his production. Oden drawing double teams will create more open looks for Webster, and Andre Miller will do a good job of getting Webster the ball in a position to score.

Also, when Martell first joined the Blazers, they were a pretty crappy team. They won 21 games his rookie year. He was not surrounded by a lot of quality players. The players with the two highest PERs on the team that season were Ruben Patterson (17.0) and Zach Randolph (16.9) - not exactly guys who are known for making their teammates better.

Martell's second year, they added two very talented rookies and won 32 games, but they still had a lot of below average players (Jamaal Magloire, Ime Udoka, Juan Dixon, etc.) playing big minutes.

Now look at the guys Martell will be potentially playing with on the "2nd Unit" this year:

Greg Oden - 2008-09 PER = 18.1
Travis Outlaw - 2008-09 PER = 15.1
Rudy Fernandez - 2008-09 PER = 15.4
Andre Miller - 2008-09 PER = 18.6

Playing with that much talent beside him should help Martell's growth and his confidence. I know Nate rarely plays the 2nd unit as a unit during games, but those will be the guys Martell will likely be teamed with during practice (at least early in the season - according to Nat'es comments). And, since Nate almost always leaves one of Aldridge or Roy on the court with the 2nd unit, all the better.

The two things that have been holding Webster back have been a lack of confidence and not moving well without the ball. When he plays with confidence and is working to get open, he is a much better offensive player. I know the sample size is extremely small, but if you watch the replay of the 24-point quarter against Utah, you will see that Martell was constantly on the move, he was running off multiple screens, attacking the defense, drawing fouls, etc. Also, again very limited sample size, but he was also very active moving without the ball in the preseason game against Sacramento last year (yeah, I KNOW it was preseason, and yes I KNOW is was against Sacramento). He also seemd to work very well with Rudy in that game.

So, I think playing with better, more talented teammates, both in practice and in the games will help Martell's confidence. I also think playing with guys like Andre Miller and Rudy Fernandez will encourage him to be more active and move without the ball more. I think a confident, active Martell Webster coming off the bench can be a huge plus for the Blazers. I look forward to seeing how well he performs with his new teammates.

BNM

Agreed!

That second unit is a better team than the teams Web played with in his first two seasons IMO.
 
Bull hockey. He didn't draft himself at #6, why should he be measured by that yardstick? People who use that draft position excuse to pin unfair expectations on him are just looking to bitch. Yes, we could have had Paul. Did you tell Bowie to suck it up because he couldn't play like Jordan?

Fuck that noise. It's bullshit.

Bollocks.

Webster's paycheck was based on his draft status. Besides, why did he declare for the draft that year, if not for the promise of a lotto level salary?
 
Holy cow! Some page C7 news has blown up on this board. You know it's the dog days of summer when Martell gets this much digital ink! That said I'm stoked to hear that Martell is making a comeback for his sake. I also liked what I saw in his one pre-season game. We will see of course and I'm reserving judgement, but I'm certainly not going to go out on a limb and say he will make an impact. On the other hand I'm not ready to write him off as useless either. Only time will tell for Webs.

As an aside I prefer to see Webster on the court over Outlaw. :stirthepot:
 
Webster could play an important role on this team. Batum has a shoulder issue and didn't average typical starting minutes last year (won't even get into the sophmore jinx). Outlaw is the current back up PF.

If Batum (and that wirey frame) can't hack an increase in minutes from last year (either physically or jsut not there yet as a player) . . . Blazers could actually be counting on Webster to produce this year.

I won't go so far yet as to call Webter's role a big part of if the Blazers suceed or not (last year I said Blake would be the x-factor for the year, i think that was true) . . . but if the young kid from France doesn't play on a consistent level or gets hurt, Webster becomes important to this team.
 
Martell has averaged 22.9 minutes, 8.1 points, 3.0 rebounds, and 0.8 assists, for an overall rating (points+rebounds+assists) of 11.9. If you look at http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm, to date he has played most like a 12th pick: 18.8 minutes, 6.6 points, 3.7 rebounds, and 1.3 assists, overall rating 11.6. If he were to play like the average 6th pick in the upcoming season, he'd go 25.4 minutes, 10.2 points, 4.6 rebounds, 1.7 assists, overall rating 16.5. If Martell got that number of minutes and played like he has before, his rating would be 13.2. So he'd have to increase his rating by 25% on a per minute basis to get to the 6th pick level. Martell has two challenges: getting minutes in competition with other Blazers, and increasing his productivity per minute.
 
Bollocks.

Webster's paycheck was based on his draft status. Besides, why did he declare for the draft that year, if not for the promise of a lotto level salary?

Poppycock.

If some manager out there wants to hire a guy unqualified for the job, it's his ass if the guy turns out not to be able to hack it. The guy who replaces said manager once he's fired has a choice then: find a place where the hired guy is useful, or fire him too. But you can't (a) pretend Webster was even allowed to say no to the Blazers drafting him or (b) blame him for being drafted sixth.
 
Good news. I think he can help us stretch the floor even more and give LA and Greg room to work. He's a great team player and won't bitch about playing time.
 
Martell has averaged 22.9 minutes, 8.1 points, 3.0 rebounds, and 0.8 assists, for an overall rating (points+rebounds+assists) of 11.9. If you look at http://www.82games.com/nbadraftpicks.htm, to date he has played most like a 12th pick: 18.8 minutes, 6.6 points, 3.7 rebounds, and 1.3 assists, overall rating 11.6. If he were to play like the average 6th pick in the upcoming season, he'd go 25.4 minutes, 10.2 points, 4.6 rebounds, 1.7 assists, overall rating 16.5. If Martell got that number of minutes and played like he has before, his rating would be 13.2. So he'd have to increase his rating by 25% on a per minute basis to get to the 6th pick level. Martell has two challenges: getting minutes in competition with other Blazers, and increasing his productivity per minute.
by the scale you relayed, 11.6 is on the low end of their role player rating. I have him penciled in for 10 minutes a night or so too.

STOMP
 
Even 10 minutes is going to be hard to come by on a nightly basis. He may average that over the season if there are injuries to Roy, Fernandez or Batum.

But even then, Nate's shown a willingness to go with a two PG lineup for stretches. He may just use Blake more if our 2/3 positions get dinged up.

My guess is that we see a lot of DNP's next to Webster's name except in games where there are garbage minutes.
 
I remember Webster in his last game before the injury, it was preseason against the Kings and the entire team had a great game with Webster and Rudy leading the offense. I think what we're having here is czarot-tovot in hebrew, like when there are too many good players. Right now we have a 2nd unit of Miller, Rudy, Webster, Outlaw and Oden - that's an amazing team, perhaps as good as the first team. Even though they wouldn't play as much as the first team, there'll be a place for 1-2 of them in the closing-unit and in blowouts, all of them together would make it a fun ending.

Position-by-position:
PG - Blake will get more minutes, Miller will close most tight games. In a few years, Blake becomes Bayless' backup.
SG - Roy vs. Rudy... one day it'll be a battle between the two best 2-guards from each side of the Atlantic, can they co-exist and push each-other for better results? I think they will.
SF - Batum will start and play about 50-50 with Webster. who is playing in the final minutes will be decided according to match-ups/whoever's having a better game.
PF - Lemarcus brings both offense and defense and Outlaw brings offense but would have to trust Greg a lot causing him foul-trouble.
C - Joel is starting, Greg plays as much as his fouls decide.
 
Even 10 minutes is going to be hard to come by on a nightly basis. He may average that over the season if there are injuries to Roy, Fernandez or Batum.

But even then, Nate's shown a willingness to go with a two PG lineup for stretches. He may just use Blake more if our 2/3 positions get dinged up.

My guess is that we see a lot of DNP's next to Webster's name except in games where there are garbage minutes.
yeah, it probably shakes out that way. If history holds, he'll come out with a bang in the preseason and earn a rotation role. But once the regular season starts up, he'll fade under pressure/responsibility. The team has several other options to turn to and they were all decidedly more effective last season then MW has ever been... DNP-CD's definitely loom as a strong possibility and I doubt I'm the only one who thinks he could have confidence issues dealing with a lessor role which would sink him further. But between the role he should start the season with, blowouts, and the likelyhood of injuries to guys who do play, 10 MPG seems my best over/under guess.

STOMP
 
I think if Webster stays healthy he's going to surprise a lot of people. I can't wait until the start of the season!!
 
I think if Webster stays healthy he's going to surprise a lot of people.

He would surprise me, anyway.

barfo
 
I've already called shotgun on the Webster Wagon of Wonder. I understand that puts me in the huge minority. I understand there are statistics that, if extrapolated, show he probably won't be that good.

My hope is that between Miller and Webster, Blake doesn't play another minute. I don't think Nate's that forward-thinking, but that's ok. Baby steps.
 
Poppycock.

If some manager out there wants to hire a guy unqualified for the job, it's his ass if the guy turns out not to be able to hack it. The guy who replaces said manager once he's fired has a choice then: find a place where the hired guy is useful, or fire him too. But you can't (a) pretend Webster was even allowed to say no to the Blazers drafting him or (b) blame him for being drafted sixth.

Balderdash and rot ...
 

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