Wesley Matthews #'s as a starter

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MickZagger said:
lol, so now thats your argument. A team is 1 game under .500 and thus since they don't have a winning record every player on the teams stats are meaningless? Take Matthews off this team and we don't win the past 2 games. Period.

Silly stand to take. But, I don't put it past you.
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The team is 2-3 in Matthews' starts. I'm sorry if you can't accept them, but my opinions are primarily based in wins and losses. That should be fairly obvious.
 
Minstrel said:
As I said in another thread, the Wes Matthews era coincides nicely with the death of dreams. Matthews has destroyed this franchise. This was a 50+ win team before Matthews got here.
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I dont think that at all. I just don't think that Matthews' going on a Travis Outlaw streak (scoring and not doing anything else) while the team is losing is validation of anything, but it certainly isn't an indictment on Matthews, or even making him a scapegoat.
 
BGrantFan said:
I dont think that at all. I just don't think that Matthews' going on a Travis Outlaw streak (scoring and not doing anything else) while the team is losing is validation of anything, but it certainly isn't an indictment on Matthews, or even making him a scapegoat.
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He's scoring at a more efficient clip than Outlaw, which makes him more valuable, and he's a superior defender, so I'd say he's not as one-dimensional as Outlaw.

For me, the question is whether Matthews can keep it up. If he can, an efficient 20 PPG scorer who plays good defense is extremely valuable, even if he isn't a good rebounder or passer. If he really is what he's been as a starter, then I'd say he's much more valuable than an MLE player.
 
Minstrel said:
He's scoring at a more efficient clip than Outlaw, which makes him more valuable, and he's a superior defender, so I'd say he's not as one-dimensional as Outlaw.

For me, the question is whether Matthews can keep it up. If he can, an efficient 20 PPG scorer who plays good defense is extremely valuable, even if he isn't a good rebounder or passer. If he really is what he's been as a starter, then I'd say he's much more valuable than an MLE player.
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Outlaw and Matthews both have the exact same Drtg for their careers ... 108. While Wesley is a better on-the-ball defender, he isn't much in terms of help defense.

Anyhow, for the season, he's giving about the production of Outlaw in 2008-09, which is a good thing.
 
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He is a great on the ball defender as you saw twice last night against Nash. He has played far and and above my expectations!
 
BGrantFan said:
I dont think that at all. I just don't think that Matthews' going on a Travis Outlaw streak (scoring and not doing anything else) while the team is losing is validation of anything, but it certainly isn't an indictment on Matthews, or even making him a scapegoat.
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"not doing anything else"

He may not be racking up tons of assists like we've grown accustomed to from the shooting guard position, judging by the number of tips, deflections, steals and charges he's taken I'd say he's doing two things very well as a starter. Shooting/scoring and playing above average defense. Given his contract, only being a sophomore and actually justifying his money instead of acting fat and happy I'd like to see more of this "not doing anything else" thing that's he's doing.
 
Nikolokolus said:
"not doing anything else"

He may not be racking up tons of assists like we've grown accustomed to from the shooting guard position, judging by the number of tips, deflections, steals and charges he's taken I'd say he's doing two things very well as a starter. Shooting/scoring and playing above average defense. Given his contract, only being a sophomore and actually justifying his money instead of acting fat and happy I'd like to see more of this "not doing anything else" thing that's he's doing.
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Me too! I hope he keeps it up.
 
HCP said:
We should have a way to find out everybody on S2 PER! I'd be rocking at least a 25 right now!
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That is probably true. But what you're not getting is that on S2, the lower your PER is the better your posting quality. Which is why I'm rocking a 12 right now.
 
BGrantFan said:
The team is 2-3 in Matthews' starts. I'm sorry if you can't accept them, but my opinions are primarily based in wins and losses. That should be fairly obvious.
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It should also be fairly obvious that there can be good players on bad teams.
 
julius said:
That is probably true. But what you're not getting is that on S2, the lower your PER is the better your posting quality. Which is why I'm rocking a 12 right now.
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Keep telling yourself that FAMS!
 
BGrantFan said:
The team is 2-3 in Matthews' starts. I'm sorry if you can't accept them, but my opinions are primarily based in wins and losses. That should be fairly obvious.
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Thats a very warped way of looking at things. Basketball is a team game. 5 players on the court at all times.
 
Minstrel said:
He's scoring at a more efficient clip than Outlaw, which makes him more valuable, and he's a superior defender, so I'd say he's not as one-dimensional as Outlaw.

For me, the question is whether Matthews can keep it up. If he can, an efficient 20 PPG scorer who plays good defense is extremely valuable, even if he isn't a good rebounder or passer. If he really is what he's been as a starter, then I'd say he's much more valuable than an MLE player.
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He's not a good defender. Kobe and Carmello got their scoring averages against him in the playoffs last year.
 
BGrantFan said:
Wins and losses are "warped", if binary is "warped", I suppose...
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Don't be so dense. I can compose an extensive list of great players, Hall of Fame even that spent times on losing teams, or lost before they figured it out or the teams they were on got better. But, that would be a waste of time, since both you and I know that good, even great players, have played on losing teams.
 
MickZagger said:
Don't be so dense. I can compose an extensive list of great players, Hall of Fame even that spent times on losing teams, or lost before they figured it out or the teams they were on got better. But, that would be a waste of time, since both you and I know that good, even great players, have played on losing teams.
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I base my Blazer opinions in large part on whether or not the Blazers are winning or losing. I don't know how that makes me dense. I know that there are good players on bad teams, just as there are good players who seem to always be on bad-to-mediocre teams. It doesn't matter to me if Matthews averages 30 ppg if it ultimately doesn't translate into wins. You thinking otherwise doesn't bother me, though.
 
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BGrantFan said:
I base my Blazer opinions in large part on whether or not the Blazers are winning or losing. I don't know how that makes me dense. I know that there are good players on bad teams, just as there are good players who seem to always be on bad-to-mediocre teams. It doesn't matter to me if Matthews averages 30 ppg if it ultimately doesn't translate into wins. You thinking otherwise doesn't bother me, though.
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Say we have a team that is playing .500 ball and we take Matthews 30ppg out of the equation? Are we still playing .500 ball?

Thats the way I look at the team this year. I can think of atleast 5 wins off the top of my head that we wouldn't have if it wasn't for Matthews.

Dude, hasn't blinked since being a starter. Putting up consistent numbers without plays being called for him (a good skill to have in the NBA). This, in only his 2nd year in the league.

He's worth every penny we paid for him.
 
MickZagger said:
Say we have a team that is playing .500 ball and we take Matthews 30ppg out of the equation? Are we still playing .500 ball?

Thats the way I look at the team this year. I can think of atleast 5 wins off the top of my head that we wouldn't have if it wasn't for Matthews.

Dude, hasn't blinked since being a starter. Putting up consistent numbers without plays being called for him (a good skill to have in the NBA). This, in only his 2nd year in the league.

He's worth every penny we paid for him.
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He has 4 more years plus 62 games to prove it, IMO. Or, if the Blazers win a title, then he is immediatey validated, IMO.

As it stands now, the team is playing worse in terms of wins and losses and is out of playoff position. At this point, he hasn't made the team better than it was last year, IMO. I'm sorry if this opinion upsets you. I just want wins.
 
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BGrantFan said:
He has 4 more years plus 62 games to prove it, IMO. Or, if the Blazers win a title, then he is immediatey validated, IMO.

As it stands now, the team is playing worse in terms of wins and losses and is out of playoff position. At this point, he hasn't made the team better than it was last year, IMO. I'm sorry if this opinion upsets you. I just want wins.
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lol, we aren't as good as last year, because essentially every player outside of Andre Miller's production has dipped. Roy, our best players production has dipped dramatically. Hardly any fault of Matthews.

You have a thick-headed approach to Matthews, because right from the get go you thought we overpaid. Even though it has been proven that we didn't, there's no going back on that opinion now. Because heaven forbid you admit you were wrong on something.

I get it that some people will argue till they're red in the face. But, you will argue, twist and distort and go down swinging until the very end. Props to you I guess, but I'm not sure thats good for long term health.
 
MickZagger said:
lol, we aren't as good as last year, because essentially every player outside of Andre Miller's production has dipped. Roy, our best players production has dipped dramatically. Hardly any fault of Matthews.

You have a thick-headed approach to Matthews, because right from the get go you thought we overpaid. Even though it has been proven that we didn't, there's no going back on that opinion now. Because heaven forbid you admit you were wrong on something.

I get it that some people will argue till they're red in the face. But, you will argue, twist and distort and go down swinging until the very end. Props to you I guess, but I'm not sure thats good for long term health.
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I'm advocating that Matthews should start. How is that being thick-headed about him? I'm just not ready to say that he is worth his contract after 21 games of a 10-11 season. I'm surprised that others are saying he's already proven that he's worth $35 million, actually.
 
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BGrantFan said:
It doesn't matter to me if Matthews averages 30 ppg if it ultimately doesn't translate into wins.
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If he's doing it efficiently, it will translate into wins. An NBA team can always lose more games...as you said, it's not binary, so it's not like a team is either a winner or loser. There's a sliding scale of games won in a season.

Ultimately, no player "wins games." All an individual player can do is help in the effort to win games. If his teammates aren't doing enough, the team may not win a lot, but that doesn't mean the individual isn't doing a lot to help in the effort to win games.

As far as I can tell, Matthews (and Miller, to tie in the other major discussion we've been having) are doing quite a bit to help in the effort to win games. An effort which, due to the rest of the team talent, isn't quite sufficient for the win totals we hoped for.
 
BGrantFan said:
I'm advocating that Matthews should start. How is that being thick-headed about him? I'm just not ready to say that he is worth his contract after 21 games of a 10-11 season. I'm surprised that others are saying he's already proven that he's worth $35 million, actually.
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Most 24 year olds production goes on an upward trend. Generally speaking, there's of course exceptions.
 
MickZagger said:
Most 24 year olds production goes on an upward trend. Generally speaking, there's of course exceptions.
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I hope that's the case with Wesley. I'm just not ready to say that he is worth $35 million at this point. I don't think that is an unreasonable position, but maybe I'm just being thick-headed again.

1) I want him to start
2) I don't think he's proven his contract

I guess these are thick-headed/dense positions to some people.
 
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It's kind of absurd to judge whether Matthews is worth $35 mil, since he won't actually have been paid that money for years. So, to say in effect, that you don't believe he's earned all the money he has coming to him over the next four+ years is painfully obvious. No one is going to say "Matthews has earned ALL his money." If so, why should he bother playing the next four seasons?

All anyone can say is whether or not his game-in, game-out production is worth the money he's being paid. Last summer, lots of analysts, and sports radio hacks were saying that Matthews had been overpaid, so if BGrantFan said the same, it's not that big of a deal. I think it's pretty clear that at this point in his contract, Matthews is doing as much as can be expected of a player earning what he's earning, and playing on a team in major turmoil. Keep it up, Wes!
 
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MIXUM said:
WES IS A GREAT 6th MAN. Thats it.
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except that he's scoring 20 points per game, shooting almost 50% from the field and over 40% from three as a starter ... that's actually "good" period.
 
MIXUM said:
WES IS A GREAT 6th MAN. Thats it.
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If he can efficiently score 20 PPG and play good defense, he's a very good starter. Not an All-Star, but the next notch down.

Hopefully he can keep doing so.
 
Minstrel said:
If he can efficiently score 20 PPG and play good defense, he's a very good starter. Not an All-Star, but the next notch down.

Hopefully he can keep doing so.
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Shouldn't W/L also factor into this equation? 20ppg/3rpg/1apg on a .400 team is pretty much worthless, IMO.
 
BGrantFan said:
Shouldn't W/L also factor into this equation?
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No. If Michael Jordan had played his prime on the Kings of that era, he wouldn't have won much. Kevin Garnett didn't suddenly learn how to win when he went to the Celtics, he just got superior teammates. Win-loss record is a team metric, not an individual one.

20ppg on a .400 team is pretty much worthless, IMO.
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Not in my opinion. The value an individual player brings doesn't depend on the quality of his teammates, as far as I'm concerned. If Matthews, same exact player, were transferred to the Spurs and was an integral member of a highly successful team, it wouldn't mean that Matthews was suddenly a more valuable player. If Kobe were transferred to the Blazers, he wouldn't suddenly be a less valuable player just because he'd be losing more.
 
Minstrel said:
No. If Michael Jordan had played his prime on the Kings of that era, he wouldn't have won much. Kevin Garnett didn't suddenly learn how to win when he went to the Celtics, he just got superior teammates. Win-loss record is a team metric, not an individual one.



Not in my opinion. The value an individual player brings doesn't depend on the quality of his teammates, as far as I'm concerned. If Matthews, same exact player, were transferred to the Spurs and was an integral member of a highly successful team, it wouldn't mean that Matthews was suddenly a more valuable player. If Kobe were transferred to the Blazers, he wouldn't suddenly be a less valuable player just because he'd be losing more.
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I disagree. I guess I overvalue wins more than most posters here. Then again, I don't play Fantasy basketball, so I'm probably not up on who the "best" players are these days.
 
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