What a great country we live in! Couple fined for not hosting same-sex marriage

[magnifier661]

You are focusing on the (admittedly half-assed) example rather than the actual point.

Can any/all laws be broken if someone claims a religious reason to do so?

If not, where do you draw the line?

barfo

Missed the point? You stated that a religion cannot be excused from laws. I gave you two examples of two separate religions, that aren't Christian, that partake in breaking the law on a daily basis.

Does that exclude from all laws? Absolutely not.

But I'm just pointing out your example is flawed because there are churches even today exempt from certain laws.

 

[Denny Crane]

So, everyone should be allowed to ignore whatever laws they want to, if they claim it is for religious reasons?

Or just Christians?

My religion says it's ok to take an enormous amount of drugs and drive my car 150mph on crowded city streets. You'll defend my right to do so, correct? After all, it's my religion!

barfo

No. The government shouldn't deny people freedom to use their property as they see fit, or force them to participate in religious ceremonies on their own property that they oppose. Nor should the government prohibit someone from driving 150 MPH on their farm land.

The couple got married on someone else's farm. They aren't entitled to anyone letting them marry on someone else's property. But some people are cool and others are religious.

 

[magnifier661]

No. The government shouldn't deny people freedom to use their property as they see fit, or force them to participate in religious ceremonies on their own property that they oppose. Nor should the government prohibit someone from driving 150 MPH on their farm land.

The couple got married on someone else's farm. They aren't entitled to anyone letting them marry on someone else's property. But some people are cool and others are religious.

Well said, but I would add. Some religions are cool and others are governments.

 

[Denny Crane]

I sort of wonder how barfo can justify at all that a church can refuse to marry a gay couple. After all, the church is in the business of marrying people.

Soooo... if the church can refuse, why shouldn't lay people who are religious also refuse?

 

[magnifier661]

I sort of wonder how barfo can justify at all that a church can refuse to marry a gay couple. After all, the church is in the business of marrying people.

Soooo... if the church can refuse, why shouldn't lay people who are religious also refuse?

Yeah it seems like a double standard here.

Like you and I agree. I'm all for gay marriages. I would even add that churches should allow gay people to attend church as well. But I think a church or religious people can "refuse the right to serve anyone"

 

[barfo]

No. The government shouldn't deny people freedom to use their property as they see fit, or force them to participate in religious ceremonies on their own property that they oppose. Nor should the government prohibit someone from driving 150 MPH on their farm land.

The couple got married on someone else's farm. They aren't entitled to anyone letting them marry on someone else's property. But some people are cool and others are religious.

So, if I own a restaurant on my own property (I own the restaurant business, the building, and the land on which it is built), I should be free to refuse service to black people?

barfo

 

[barfo]

Yeah it seems like a double standard here.

Like you and I agree. I'm all for gay marriages. I would even add that churches should allow gay people to attend church as well. But I think a church or religious people can "refuse the right to serve anyone"

So, if my religion says that Asian people are unclean, I can refuse to sell them gasoline, even though my gas station is the only one within 100 miles?

barfo

 

[barfo]

I sort of wonder how barfo can justify at all that a church can refuse to marry a gay couple. After all, the church is in the business of marrying people.

I can't justify that, and I won't try. I think it's disgusting behavior on the part of the church.

Soooo... if the church can refuse, why shouldn't lay people who are religious also refuse?

Because the law says the church can refuse. I'm not saying I agree with that. I don't. I'm just observing that it is the law.

barfo

 

[barfo]

Missed the point? You stated that a religion cannot be excused from laws.

No, I didn't say that. And yes, you did miss the point.

barfo

 

[magnifier661]

No, I didn't say that. And yes, you did miss the point.

barfo

Nah, you did say it. It's okay bro. If you want to back peddle on the comment you made, that's your choice.

I may disagree with what they believe, but it's their right

 

[magnifier661]

So, if my religion says that Asian people are unclean, I can refuse to sell them gasoline, even though my gas station is the only one within 100 miles?

barfo

Sure, and it's the asian's choice to talk shit about that place. But hey, you liberals are sue happy, so go ambulance chasing

 

[barfo]

Nah, you did say it.

Please quote me, then. Should be easy, there are only 70 posts in this thread. Feel free to find where I said that.

It's okay bro. If you want to back peddle on the comment you made, that's your choice.

Since I didn't make that comment, it's not backpeddling. But feel free to prove me wrong, if you can.

I may disagree with what they believe, but it's their right

That's nice. No one is debating whether people have a right to believe in whatever they want.

barfo

 

[magnifier661]

So, everyone should be allowed to ignore whatever laws they want to, if they claim it is for religious reasons?

Or just Christians?

Did you already forget the statement you made?

My religion says it's ok to take an enormous amount of drugs and drive my car 150mph on crowded city streets. You'll defend my right to do so, correct? After all, it's my religion!

barfo

ironically I was able to use two instances where a religion that is not Christian, actually is able to partake in psychoactive drugs. But that really isn't the point.

Your strawman and overused hyperbole was just exposed in this instance.

 

[julius]

My religion says that I can hate stupid people.

Really? None of you touched this one?

Ok, I'll take one for the team. *ahem*

So, your religion says you can hate stupid people...so you really must hate yourself then, eh?

 

[barfo]

Did you already forget the statement you made?

You apparently don't know this, but the symbol "?" at the end of a sentence means it is a question, not a statement.

To spell it out for you, I was asking Denny whether he believed that people should be allowed to break any laws they want, if they claim religious belief.

That's not at all the same as me stating "that a religion cannot be excused from laws".

barfo

 

[magnifier661]

You apparently don't know this, but the symbol "?" at the end of a sentence means it is a question, not a statement.

barfo

I do, but the second paragraph used a hyperbole to try and state a very inflated example to show how terrible this would be.

You can use the question, but your arguments throughout this thread only supports that a religious person is still bound by laws.

As I explained... That is not always the case, so now you spin it like that you didn't say it.

You seem to be related to Obama

 

[magnifier661]

Look I think the woman should have married the lesbians, but I don't want some government to force that person.

Picket the establishment and call them out. Asking the government to fine people is some bullshit.

End of story

 

[barfo]

You can use the question, but your arguments throughout this thread only supports that a religious person is still bound by laws.

As I explained... That is not always the case, so now you spin it like that you didn't say it.

Actually... your examples are just wrong. Religious use of peyote by certain groups is legal. They aren't breaking the law.

Whereas refusing service to gays is breaking the law. See the difference?

barfo

 

[barfo]

Look I think the woman should have married the lesbians

That seems a little extreme. Do you really think she'd be happy in a 3-way with them?

barfo

 

[magnifier661]

Actually... your examples are just wrong. Religious use of peyote by certain groups is legal. They aren't breaking the law.

Whereas refusing service to gays is breaking the law. See the difference?

barfo

It wasn't at first. In fact, the DEA seized all plants and bark that made ayahuasca. Only until they fought the case was when their rights were given back to them.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santo_Daime

 

[magnifier661]

That seems a little extreme. Do you really think she'd be happy in a 3-way with them?

barfo

Lol!

 

[MARIS61]

I still don't quite understand how a business can refuse service for things like dress code, for things like open carry of firearms, but once there is an outlet to erode/attack due to religious beliefs or lack thereof it's an issue.

I recognize that the term "Protected Class" will be tossed around, and that's fine--but it does not seem logical.

I agree.

A business should not be allowed to refuse service for things like dress code or things like open carry of firearms.

 

[Natebishop3]

Really? None of you touched this one?

Ok, I'll take one for the team. *ahem*

So, your religion says you can hate stupid people...so you really must hate yourself then, eh?

It really is sad that it took that long for someone to hit that grapefruit that I lobbed over the plate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[magnifier661]

It really is sad that it took that long for someone to hit that grapefruit that I lobbed over the plate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I was gonna post something, but I was worried that it was going to offend Jeffrey

 

[blue32]

I still don't think its right that a business can discriminate against others based upon their religious beliefs. Whether or not they are fined by the Gov is another thing. We have discrimination laws in place for a reason. Gays/Blacks Jews/Mexicans Women/Men, whatever, they all should have the same treatment at a business in the USA.

If religious beliefs cause you to discriminate against people then you shouldn't be in business in a country where there are discrimination laws.

 

[Denny Crane]

I still don't think its right that a business can discriminate against others based upon their religious beliefs. Whether or not they are fined by the Gov is another thing. We have discrimination laws in place for a reason. Gays/Blacks Jews/Mexicans Women/Men, whatever, they all should have the same treatment at a business in the USA.

If religious beliefs cause you to discriminate against people then you shouldn't be in business in a country where there are discrimination laws.

Religious freedom is enshrined in the 1st amendment. Should a synagogue be forced to marry christians in a christian ceremony?

The issue here is not refusing service, it's refusing to take part in a religious ceremony that is in conflict with their own religion. And it's in their HOME.

It is a very different thing than a store among a city block of stores refusing service. The city has zoned that block as commercial, the business is open to the general public. But the business is not forced to be open at 4AM, or the parking lot free to use for people wanting to park and go to the beach all day.

 

[BU54]

In the end what's right will be wrong and what's wrong will be right.
We must be very close to the end.

 

[barfo]

Religious freedom is enshrined in the 1st amendment. Should a synagogue be forced to marry christians in a christian ceremony?

There is a big difference in the law between a business and a church. Personally if I was king I'd make churches pay tax, but that's not the way it is. So bringing up a synagogue is really not useful.

The issue here is not refusing service, it's refusing to take part in a religious ceremony that is in conflict with their own religion. And it's in their HOME.

It is refusing service. There's no evidence in the OP that the farm owners take part in the ceremony, it sounds like they rent space out and have hired help. And there's no evidence given that the weddings are held in their home rather than somewhere else on the farm.

It is a very different thing than a store among a city block of stores refusing service. The city has zoned that block as commercial, the business is open to the general public.

Same for the farm, presumably, unless they are violating zoning rules.

But the business is not forced to be open at 4AM, or the parking lot free to use for people wanting to park and go to the beach all day.

Well, then this couple should not be forced to be open at 4AM either. And people shouldn't be allowed to park at their farm and go to the beach. Fair is fair.

barfo

 

[Denny Crane]

There is a big difference in the law between a business and a church. Personally if I was king I'd make churches pay tax, but that's not the way it is. So bringing up a synagogue is really not useful.



It is refusing service. There's no evidence in the OP that the farm owners take part in the ceremony, it sounds like they rent space out and have hired help. And there's no evidence given that the weddings are held in their home rather than somewhere else on the farm.



Same for the farm, presumably, unless they are violating zoning rules.



Well, then this couple should not be forced to be open at 4AM either. And people shouldn't be allowed to park at their farm and go to the beach. Fair is fair.

barfo

"Readers know that I’ve come to support same-sex marriage. But I can’t understand why clergymen and -women are free in New York to opt out of joining in marriage homosexual couples, but the law gives not a lick of respect to non-ordained people of faith." -- the OP

Presumably, you're making stuff up.

 

[barfo]

"Readers know that I’ve come to support same-sex marriage. But I can’t understand why clergymen and -women are free in New York to opt out of joining in marriage homosexual couples, but the law gives not a lick of respect to non-ordained people of faith." -- the OP

Presumably, you're making stuff up.

How does that quote contradict anything I posted?

barfo