What are we paying Collins 6 million a year for?

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Jizzy

Jizzy

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of course Twin is noted for his defense, but it hasn't been good this year, Shaq, Yao,KG,Pau etc.. guys who Collins has slowed down in previous years have had good games against us. honest question, if Collins isn't shutting down anyone, what purpose does he serve?</p>
 
What purpose do any of these guys in the frontcourt serve?</p>

Collins - Good D but terrible rebounding and offensive ability
Malik - Good mid range game but terrible rebounding and defense
Magloire - Good rebounding, okay defense but terrible hands/offense
Williams - Good help defense, bad/average man to man defense, decent offense
Boone - Good rebounding, below average defense/offense</p>

When your rookie (who was draft mid-first round) is potentially your best frontcourt player, you're in trouble.</p>
 
How superficial. Examine how those players did while Collins was in the game, and then come back and report to us. [p.s., I don't know what the numbers will show, I'm just saying: your argument is superficial.]</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

How superficial. Examine how those players did while Collins was in the game, and then come back and report to us. [p.s., I don't know what the numbers will show, I'm just saying: your argument is superficial.]</p>

</div></p>

i don't know where to get a stat like that from but from what i recall watching, Pau got off toa hot start on twin, Shaq dominated twin late in a game, KG picked it up late as well.</p>
 
pick ONE GAME and I'll ruyn the numbers for you. Just one, then you're on your own.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

pick ONE GAME and I'll ruyn the numbers for you. Just one, then you're on your own.</p>

</div></p>

i'd liek to know the numbers of the Memphis game</p>
 
Collins played a LOT against Memphis, and Pau was on the floor for all of it. Pau played well in the first quarter, but Collins controlled him thereafter. This is the best I can figure:</p>

First quarter: Pau was 5-7 from the field (10 points), three rebounds, 0 assists, 0 PFs in 10 minutes and 5 seconds. Plus minus: +1.</p>

Second quarter: 0-2 from the field (two points on free throws right after Collins left--Collins committed the foul), 0 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 PF in 4 minutes and 18 seconds. plus-minus: -1.</p>

Third quarter: 2-3 from the field, 1 rebound, 3 assists, 2 PF in 10 minutes and 45 seconds. plus minus: -6.</p>

Fourth quarter: 1-1 from the field, 0 rebounds,1 assists, 0 PF in 6 minutes and 16 sseconds. Plus-minus: +2.</p>

Total plus minus for Memphis when Collins is guarding Pau: minus-four.</p>

Pau's production after the first quarter: 3-6 (eight points), 1 rebound, 5 assist,3 PF in over 21 minutes.</p>

Pau clearly beat Collins in the first quarter, but after that it was all Collins. I'm guessing that the reason why Pau didn't take many shots after that had to do with Collins' defense, but who knows. A large part of what Collins does it to keep the opponent out of his sweet spot, and thus keep him from taking good shots--or any shots. The increased assists would seem to suggest that he was passing out of the post--he had nearly as many assists as shots in the final three quarters when Collins was guarding him.</p>
 
What are you paying $6M for? Not fantasy stats, that's for sure.</p>

</p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Collins played a LOT against Memphis, and Pau was on the floor for all of it. Pau played well in the first quarter, but Collins controlled him thereafter. This is the best I can figure:</p>

First quarter: Pau was 5-7 from the field (10 points), three rebounds, 0 assists, 0 PFs in 10 minutes and 5 seconds. Plus minus: +1.</p>

Second quarter: 0-2 from the field (two points on free throws right after Collins left--Collins committed the foul), 0 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 PF in 4 minutes and 18 seconds. plus-minus: -1.</p>

Third quarter: 2-3 from the field, 1 rebound, 3 assists, 2 PF in 10 minutes and 45 seconds. plus minus: -6.</p>

Fourth quarter: 1-1 from the field, 0 rebounds,1 assists, 0 PF in 6 minutes and 16 sseconds. Plus-minus: +2.</p>

Total plus minus for Memphis when Collins is guarding Pau: minus-four.</p>

Pau's production after the first quarter: 3-6 (eight points), 1 rebound, 5 assist,3 PF in over 21 minutes.</p>

Pau clearly beat Collins in the first quarter, but after that it was all Collins. I'm guessing that the reason why Pau didn't take many shots after that had to do with Collins' defense, but who knows. A large part of what Collins does it to keep the opponent out of his sweet spot, and thus keep him from taking good shots--or any shots. The increased assists would seem to suggest that he was passing out of the post--he had nearly as many assists as shots in the final three quarters when Collins was guarding him.</p>

</div></p>

If that's supposed to be a statistical analysis, it's one of the worst examples I have ever seen in my life.</p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Collins played a LOT against Memphis, and Pau was on the floor for all of it. Pau played well in the first quarter, but Collins controlled him thereafter. This is the best I can figure:</p>

First quarter: Pau was 5-7 from the field (10 points), three rebounds, 0 assists, 0 PFs in 10 minutes and 5 seconds. Plus minus: +1.</p>

Second quarter: 0-2 from the field (two points on free throws right after Collins left--Collins committed the foul), 0 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 PF in 4 minutes and 18 seconds. plus-minus: -1.</p>

Third quarter: 2-3 from the field, 1 rebound, 3 assists, 2 PF in 10 minutes and 45 seconds. plus minus: -6.</p>

Fourth quarter: 1-1 from the field, 0 rebounds,1 assists, 0 PF in 6 minutes and 16 sseconds. Plus-minus: +2.</p>

Total plus minus for Memphis when Collins is guarding Pau: minus-four.</p>

Pau's production after the first quarter: 3-6 (eight points), 1 rebound, 5 assist,3 PF in over 21 minutes.</p>

Pau clearly beat Collins in the first quarter, but after that it was all Collins. I'm guessing that the reason why Pau didn't take many shots after that had to do with Collins' defense, but who knows. A large part of what Collins does it to keep the opponent out of his sweet spot, and thus keep him from taking good shots--or any shots. The increased assists would seem to suggest that he was passing out of the post--he had nearly as many assists as shots in the final three quarters when Collins was guarding him.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

actually, the Nets doubled Pau and he passed out to Navarro and Miller which led to a barrage of threes, Dumpy. I don't think Pau was looking to shoot, rather pass. Pau clearly got the best of Collins that night.</p>
 
Why does this team double?? We never get back to are shooters fast enough, its sooo stupid, we should Just play man the whole game.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teaneck_Armory_Guy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Collins played a LOT against Memphis, and Pau was on the floor for all of it. Pau played well in the first quarter, but Collins controlled him thereafter. This is the best I can figure:</p>

First quarter: Pau was 5-7 from the field (10 points), three rebounds, 0 assists, 0 PFs in 10 minutes and 5 seconds. Plus minus: +1.</p>

Second quarter: 0-2 from the field (two points on free throws right after Collins left--Collins committed the foul), 0 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 PF in 4 minutes and 18 seconds. plus-minus: -1.</p>

Third quarter: 2-3 from the field, 1 rebound, 3 assists, 2 PF in 10 minutes and 45 seconds. plus minus: -6.</p>

Fourth quarter: 1-1 from the field, 0 rebounds,1 assists, 0 PF in 6 minutes and 16 sseconds. Plus-minus: +2.</p>

Total plus minus for Memphis when Collins is guarding Pau: minus-four.</p>

Pau's production after the first quarter: 3-6 (eight points), 1 rebound, 5 assist,3 PF in over 21 minutes.</p>

Pau clearly beat Collins in the first quarter, but after that it was all Collins. I'm guessing that the reason why Pau didn't take many shots after that had to do with Collins' defense, but who knows. A large part of what Collins does it to keep the opponent out of his sweet spot, and thus keep him from taking good shots--or any shots. The increased assists would seem to suggest that he was passing out of the post--he had nearly as many assists as shots in the final three quarters when Collins was guarding him.</p>

</div></p>

If that's supposed to be a statistical analysis, it's one of the worst examples I have ever seen in my life.</p>

</p>

</div></p>

<font color="#ff0000">**********</font>. I'm showing courtesy and answering Jizzy's question.</p>

<font size="1"><font color="#ff0000">C'mon, dumpy. You're better than that. -peg</font></font></p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

</p>

actually, the Nets doubled Pau and he passed out to Navarro and Miller which led to a barrage of threes, Dumpy. I don't think Pau was looking to shoot, rather pass. Pau clearly got the best of Collins that night.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Could be. I didn't watch the game, and if I had, I would have lost interest in 90% of it, and would no longer remember the rest. However, for whatever reason, it's interesting that the Nets outscored Memphis when both Collins and Pau were on the court, so if that was Memphis' strategy, it dodn't work too well. Of course, Collins is only on the court with the starters. I wonder how Pau did when Collins was NOT on the court. That's simple subtraction. Jizzy? What do you come up with?</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teaneck_Armory_Guy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Collins played a LOT against Memphis, and Pau was on the floor for all of it. Pau played well in the first quarter, but Collins controlled him thereafter. This is the best I can figure:</p>

First quarter: Pau was 5-7 from the field (10 points), three rebounds, 0 assists, 0 PFs in 10 minutes and 5 seconds. Plus minus: +1.</p>

Second quarter: 0-2 from the field (two points on free throws right after Collins left--Collins committed the foul), 0 rebounds, 1 assist, 1 PF in 4 minutes and 18 seconds. plus-minus: -1.</p>

Third quarter: 2-3 from the field, 1 rebound, 3 assists, 2 PF in 10 minutes and 45 seconds. plus minus: -6.</p>

Fourth quarter: 1-1 from the field, 0 rebounds,1 assists, 0 PF in 6 minutes and 16 sseconds. Plus-minus: +2.</p>

Total plus minus for Memphis when Collins is guarding Pau: minus-four.</p>

Pau's production after the first quarter: 3-6 (eight points), 1 rebound, 5 assist,3 PF in over 21 minutes.</p>

Pau clearly beat Collins in the first quarter, but after that it was all Collins. I'm guessing that the reason why Pau didn't take many shots after that had to do with Collins' defense, but who knows. A large part of what Collins does it to keep the opponent out of his sweet spot, and thus keep him from taking good shots--or any shots. The increased assists would seem to suggest that he was passing out of the post--he had nearly as many assists as shots in the final three quarters when Collins was guarding him.</p>

</div></p>

If that's supposed to be a statistical analysis, it's one of the worst examples I have ever seen in my life.</p>

</p>

</div></p>

<font color="#ff0000">*********</font>. I'm showing courtesy and answering Jizzy's question.</p>

</p>

</div></p>

I'm gone. <font color="#ff0000">******************</font>.</p>

<font color="#ff0000"><font size="1">Chill, guys, and just have a mature discussion. No need to take shots at eachother, please. -peg
</font></font></p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

</p>

actually, the Nets doubled Pau and he passed out to Navarro and Miller which led to a barrage of threes, Dumpy. I don't think Pau was looking to shoot, rather pass. Pau clearly got the best of Collins that night.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Could be. I didn't watch the game, and if I had, I would have lost interest in 90% of it, and would no longer remember the rest. However, for whatever reason, it's interesting that the Nets outscored Memphis when both Collins and Pau were on the court, so if that was Memphis' strategy, it dodn't work too well. Of course, Collins is only on the court with the starters. I wonder how Pau did when Collins was NOT on the court. That's simple subtraction. Jizzy? What do you come up with?</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Okay, so from reading this thread, this is what I got from the game(that I missed): Pau established a strong post presence in the beginning in the game. The Nets did their usual "double the post player no matter what, and let wing players make every 3 possible" strategy. Pau beat that by simply passing it out of the post, and letting his shooters do their jobs. And we lost.</p>

So, basically, Collins really screwed up, and Frank simply made it worse.</p>
 
this is coming after a game where he grabs 8 rebounds against a 7'6" guy, 3 or 4 being o-boards? I don't really care about Collins bashing, I'm just saying that this is probably one of the worst opportunities for it.</p>
 
ok, i can speak to the Memphis game since I was seated in row 13 lower level....Collins played one of his better games...he won the opening tip, first Nets score was Carter getting space due to an effective screen by Collins.....he shot 3 for 3, with a lay in, a hook shot and a jumper.......as for Gasol....he was unable to challenge Collins in the post, mostly he either missed the shot or passed the ball...he had one lay in on a rebound when Collins had to leave him to help defend....most of Gasol's points were on perimeter shots when he got space due to Collins rotating to pick up a penetrator....someone should have rotated to pick up Gasol...Iremember one Gasol perimeter shot was over Collins who gave too much space</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jizzy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

</p>

actually, the Nets doubled Pau and he passed out to Navarro and Miller which led to a barrage of threes, Dumpy. I don't think Pau was looking to shoot, rather pass. Pau clearly got the best of Collins that night.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Could be. I didn't watch the game, and if I had, I would have lost interest in 90% of it, and would no longer remember the rest. However, for whatever reason, it's interesting that the Nets outscored Memphis when both Collins and Pau were on the court, so if that was Memphis' strategy, it dodn't work too well. Of course, Collins is only on the court with the starters. I wonder how Pau did when Collins was NOT on the court. That's simple subtraction. Jizzy? What do you come up with?</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Okay, so from reading this thread, this is what I got from the game(that I missed): Pau established a strong post presence in the beginning in the game. The Nets did their usual "double the post player no matter what, and let wing players make every 3 possible" strategy. Pau beat that by simply passing it out of the post, and letting his shooters do their jobs. And we lost.</p>

So, basically, Collins really screwed up, and Frank simply made it worse.</p>

</div></p>

exactly it.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vuchato)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

this is coming after a game where he grabs 8 rebounds against a 7'6" guy, 3 or 4 being o-boards? I don't really care about Collins bashing, I'm just saying that this is probably one of the worst opportunities for it.</p>

</div></p>

lol, come the fuck on. he has one good rebounding out where he grabs 8 rebounds and we treat him as if he just scored a tiple double. he should be grabbing 8 boards a game but he can't, he's a slow, slumpy, lumbering big man who has no resort other then boxing out . themyth that Twin prefers to box out rather get the boards is pure BS. he can't grab rebounds but he can use his big body to keep other wide bigs out of the lane but guys like Vareajo and Gooden and other athletic PFs take advantage of his slow speed.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Okay, so from reading this thread, this is what I got from the game(that I missed): Pau established a strong post presence in the beginning in the game. The Nets did their usual "double the post player no matter what, and let wing players make every 3 possible" strategy. Pau beat that by simply passing it out of the post, and letting his shooters do their jobs. And we lost.</p>

So, basically, Collins really screwed up, and Frank simply made it worse.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Just to play Devil's laundromat:</p>

(1) Not sure if you're implying that the nets only doubled Pau after Collins did a poor job in the first quarter, or that was their game plan all along. Even if true, the players don't make that sort of decision by themselves; that is Frank's call. Was this because Collins was playing poorly, or was it a preconceived plan? Regardless, you'd have to see if the nets played him any differently when Collins was in the game than when he was not in the game. Did the Nets not double him when Magloire or Sean Williams was defending Pau? Or did they just do a better job containing him when Collins was in the game?</p>

(2) Even if all that is true, my back-of-the-envelope calculation seems to show that the nets outscored memphis when both Collins and Pau were in the game, so either Frank's doubling strategy worked; Collins did a good job; or some combination. Since the Nets lost, they either got hammered when someone other than Collins defended Pau, or when Pau wasn't in the game at all. So you've really got to pick your poison on this one.</p>

(3) If you go back and watch the tape, instead of just crunching numbers, my GUESS is that the conclusion will be that even though Collins sucks at half the game, he's better than any alternative. Which is where we've been for awhile now.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Okay, so from reading this thread, this is what I got from the game(that I missed): Pau established a strong post presence in the beginning in the game. The Nets did their usual "double the post player no matter what, and let wing players make every 3 possible" strategy. Pau beat that by simply passing it out of the post, and letting his shooters do their jobs. And we lost.</p>

So, basically, Collins really screwed up, and Frank simply made it worse.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Just to play Devil's laundromat:</p>

(1) Not sure if you're implying that the nets only doubled Pau after Collins did a poor job in the first quarter, or that was their game plan all along. Even if true, the players don't make that sort of decision by themselves; that is Frank's call. Was this because Collins was playing poorly, or was it a preconceived plan? Regardless, you'd have to see if the nets played him any differently when Collins was in the game than when he was not in the game. Did the Nets not double him when Magloire or Sean Williams was defending Pau? Or did they just do a better job containing him when Collins was in the game?</p>

(2) Even if all that is true, my back-of-the-envelope calculation seems to show that the nets outscored memphis when both Collins and Pau were in the game, so either Frank's doubling strategy worked; Collins did a good job; or some combination. Since the Nets lost, they either got hammered when someone other than Collins defended Pau, or when Pau wasn't in the game at all. So you've really got to pick your poison on this one.</p>

(3) If you go back and watch the tape, instead of just crunching numbers, my GUESS is that the conclusion will be that even though Collins sucks at half the game, he's better than any alternative. Which is where we've been for awhile now.</p>

</div></p>

I see what you did there.</p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Dumpy)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (peg182)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

Okay, so from reading this thread, this is what I got from the game(that I missed): Pau established a strong post presence in the beginning in the game. The Nets did their usual "double the post player no matter what, and let wing players make every 3 possible" strategy. Pau beat that by simply passing it out of the post, and letting his shooters do their jobs. And we lost.</p>

So, basically, Collins really screwed up, and Frank simply made it worse.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Just to play Devil's laundromat:</p>

(1) Not sure if you're implying that the nets only doubled Pau after Collins did a poor job in the first quarter, or that was their game plan all along. Even if true, the players don't make that sort of decision by themselves; that is Frank's call. Was this because Collins was playing poorly, or was it a preconceived plan? Regardless, you'd have to see if the nets played him any differently when Collins was in the game than when he was not in the game. Did the Nets not double him when Magloire or Sean Williams was defending Pau? Or did they just do a better job containing him when Collins was in the game?</p>

(2) Even if all that is true, my back-of-the-envelope calculation seems to show that the nets outscored memphis when both Collins and Pau were in the game, so either Frank's doubling strategy worked; Collins did a good job; or some combination. Since the Nets lost, they either got hammered when someone other than Collins defended Pau, or when Pau wasn't in the game at all. So you've really got to pick your poison on this one.</p>

(3) If you go back and watch the tape, instead of just crunching numbers, my GUESS is that the conclusion will be that even though Collins sucks at half the game, he's better than any alternative. Which is where we've been for awhile now.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

I really wish I watched the Memphis game, and even the Houston game...so I can figure out what really went wrong.</p>

What I know for a fact is that Frank's strategy of double-teaming in the post almost never works. Cause, ya know, perimeter players not on the Nets can actually hit jumpers.</p>
 
The Memphis game was similar to the Toronto game...the Nets left the 3-point shooters wide open....andwhy are you still debating non-facts regarding Collins? I gave you my eye-witness account above which is contrary to the suggestion that his poor defense led to open perimeter shots; he was not primarily responsible for the Memphis loss.</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

I see what you did there.</p>

</div></p>

:-)</p>

</p>
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpartanNJ)</div><div class='quotemain'></p>

The Memphis game was similar to the Toronto game...the Nets left the 3-point shooters wide open....andwhy are you still debating non-facts regarding Collins? I gave you my eye-witness account above which is contrary to the suggestion that his poor defense led to open perimeter shots; he was not primarily responsible for the Memphis loss.</p>

</div></p>

</p>

Wow...completely missed your post. My fault. I guess that makes sense, and Collins isn't as much at fault as I suspected. You and Dumpy are right.</p>

Still, this doesn't change the fact that I hate the "double-team in the post and let shooters have their way" game plan Frank uses. And the fact that some perimeter defenders get lazy and let shooters get waaay too much space.</p>
 
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