What does Hillary want?

[Thoth]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 8 2008, 09:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Where is the enumerated power to create the central bank?</div>

The Fed was created in 1913 during Woodrow Wilson's 1st term. I have already stated how much the chapter on WW in Liberal Fascism disturbed me. Now, I'm afraid to protest too much lest the black helicopters come to take me away.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thomas Jefferson)</div><div class='quotemain'>I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.</div>

 

[Denny Crane]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Aug 8 2008, 08:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 8 2008, 11:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Where is the enumerated power to create the central bank?</div>

C'mon, I know you've read <u>McCulloch v. Maryland</u>

</div>

The whole "implied powers" line of reasoning is a nifty way to get around doing things constitutionally. It was the beginning of the end of the ultimate experiment in democracy, and look at us 200 years later! $3T budgets, entitlement programs, moronic government interference in just about everything...

Thoth's quote from Jefferson, one of the original Liberals/Libertarians, is spot on. But he's not up to snuff on the first bank of the US (or the 2nd...)

 

[Thoth]

I do know TJ wanted to create a pastroral/agricultural society and lost out to Hamilton who wanted the new nation to be more industrial/commercial.

So, how ironic is it that Jefferson appears on any money at all?

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't know that Jefferson solely wanted an agricultural society, but ag was his interest no doubt. I would say that he didn't like the idea of the northern states using government to further their pocketbooks while taxing the south to pay for it.

Hamilton was in love with the way the English did things and really was in love with the idea of big government here.

Interestingly, at the time, there were three factions of people in the USA - those who wanted to side with England in its war against France, those who wanted to side with France, and the Washington/Adams faction that wanted to remain neutral.

 

[AEM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thoth @ Aug 8 2008, 11:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 8 2008, 09:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Where is the enumerated power to create the central bank?</div>

The Fed was created in 1913 during Woodrow Wilson's 1st term. I have already stated how much the chapter on WW in Liberal Fascism disturbed me. Now, I'm afraid to protest too much lest the black helicopters come to take me away.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thomas Jefferson)</div><div class='quotemain'>I sincerely believe that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity, under the name of funding, is but swindling futurity on a large scale.</div>
</div>

I prefer Brandeis' comment about bankers: <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The goose that lays golden eggs has been considered a most valuable possession. But even more profitable is the privilege of taking the golden eggs laid by somebody else’s goose. The investment bankers and their associates now enjoy that privilege. They control the people through the people’s own money…. The fetters which bind the people are forged from the people’s own gold.</div> The Works of Justice Brandeis at 146-47

 

[AEM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 8 2008, 11:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't know that Jefferson solely wanted an agricultural society, but ag was his interest no doubt. I would say that he didn't like the idea of the northern states using government to further their pocketbooks while taxing the south to pay for it.

Hamilton was in love with the way the English did things and really was in love with the idea of big government here.

Interestingly, at the time, there were three factions of people in the USA - those who wanted to side with England in its war against France, those who wanted to side with France, and the Washington/Adams faction that wanted to remain neutral.</div>

Hamilton wanted neutrality in that war. The Pacificus letters were an excellent explanation why. Hamilton's views on England itself were an interesting phenomenon, and changed significantly when it suited him to do so.

As for Jefferson and implied powers, the Louisiana Purchase tends to imply that he was malleable on the subject when he had to face it on a practical level.

 

[Thoth]

Off the top of my head, I don't think it was to be an exclusively agricultural rather a majority of the nation would be that way. Jefferson was a product of the age of enlightenment and hence a fairly ration person. He IMO saw the dangers of being too industrial.

It could be said "implied powers" allowed TJ make the Louisiana Purchase.

edit- AEM beat me to the punch on the LP. Then, there is the whole slavery conundrum.

 

[AEM]

Returning to McCulloch for a moment, it's worth pointing out that John Marshall was the greatest of the relatively few Hamiltonians to sit on the Supreme Court, and heavily utilized Hamilton's reasoning (and actual words) in his most influential decisions. [According to Staab, the only other Hamiltonians to sit on the Court were Chief Justices Taft and Burger, and Justice Scalia - though the last has moved considerably towards a Madisonian view in many instances]

 

[AEM]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thoth @ Aug 9 2008, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Off the top of my head, I don't think it was to be an exclusively agricultural rather a majority of the nation would be that way. Jefferson was a product of the age of enlightenment and hence a fairly ration person. He IMO saw the dangers of being too industrial.

It could be said "implied powers" allowed TJ make the Louisiana Purchase.</div>

Implied powers were indeed how he made the Purchase - for which Hamilton backed him, despite Federalist party opposition to it for obvious reasons.

Jefferson himself wasn't entirely rational on the subject of agriculture versus industry though. If anything, he was rather provincial in that respect.

 

[AEM]

Jefferson owned slaves. Hamilton was counselor for a NY manumission society.

 

[Denny Crane]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AEM @ Aug 8 2008, 09:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 8 2008, 11:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't know that Jefferson solely wanted an agricultural society, but ag was his interest no doubt. I would say that he didn't like the idea of the northern states using government to further their pocketbooks while taxing the south to pay for it.

Hamilton was in love with the way the English did things and really was in love with the idea of big government here.

Interestingly, at the time, there were three factions of people in the USA - those who wanted to side with England in its war against France, those who wanted to side with France, and the Washington/Adams faction that wanted to remain neutral.</div>

Hamilton wanted neutrality in that war. The Pacificus letters were an excellent explanation why. Hamilton's views on England itself were an interesting phenomenon, and changed significantly when it suited him to do so.

As for Jefferson and implied powers, the Louisiana Purchase tends to imply that he was malleable on the subject when he had to face it on a practical level.
</div>

I wouldn't call pushing for a treaty (Jay's Treaty) with the British staying neutral in the war.

You can't blame Jefferson once the genie was out of the bottle.

 

[AEM]

Take it up with John Jay's ghost.

Jefferson changed his tune on several issues when he was faced with them directly. The Alien and Sedition Act comes to mind.

 

[Denny Crane]

^^ and people think Guantanamo is bad.

And there's no doubt Jefferson turned into a Democrat, which means he wasn't Libertarian anymore.

 

[AEM]

Gitmo's got NOTHING on the old prison ships that used to be anchored in the East River either.

 

[Denny Crane]

^^^ That was a week or two (or 10,000) before the Geneva Conventions, tho.

 

[AEM]

^ Major Andre wishes it were otherwise...

 

[Real]

I'm not trying to justify the PATRIOT act, torture (which I think is counterproductive) or any other measures taken by the Bush Administration to protect America.

But aren't these liberals who oppose the PATRIOT act for being unconstitutional the same people that would be inclined to justify the New Deal policies of FDR in the 30's?

 

[Denny Crane]

^^^ The Japanese internment camps in the USA were both a violation of civil rights and a hell of a lot worse than Gitmo.

People don't have perspective to realize how limited government's actions on this score have been since 9/11.

 

[AEM]

The difference is that the PATRIOT Act is constitutional, while the New Deal is only constitutional because Roosevelt threatened to pack the Supreme Court if they kept invalidating it...

 

[Denny Crane]

^^^ That and to the best of my knowledge, and I've followed it VERY closely, we have only tortured 3 of the most dangerous of people, and it did lead to credible intel.

Explain why FDR wasn't a fascist.

 

[AEM]

He had some pronounced Fascistic tendencies, without a doubt. I'm no fan of his to begin with though.

 

[Denny Crane]

^^^ I think he admired Hitler during the 1930s, because Hitler was able to end Germany's pain from the world-wide Great Depression while FDR's programs were miserable failures. If pressed, I'm sure I can dig up direct quotes to substantiate it.

What's the difference between a Germany using its industry to build war materiel, and the USA using Ford and GM and Boeing to build war materiel?

 

[AEM]

^ During the '30s, there is little difference. After that point, slave labor makes a pretty big distinction.

Roosevelt admiring Hitler during the '30s is right on point from what I've read too.

 

[Denny Crane]

^^^ The kind of our labor was forced in its own way. If you have to rely on the govt. for a paycheck or face the soup lines, you are in effect slave to govt. Govt. didn't pay well, either, not even the GIs.

 

[AEM]

Are you seriously comparing the use of Americans to Nazi Germany's use of concentration camp inmates as slaves?

 

[Denny Crane]

^^^ No, the US used other means to get free labor. Like paying a paycheck then asking for it back for war bonds.

Though FDR had a great jewish friend in Morganthau, there's a lot of evidence he wasn't particular fond of jews.

 

[AEM]

^ Yeah, some of his best friends...