What if I told you no one is going to hell?

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If you told us that I'd be worried, considering what all else you're wrong about.
 
magnifier661 said:
It is only my personal belief...then I would assume our loving God would not...
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This is where, it seems to me, we get ourselves into trouble. We have the ability to discern and mane judgments about all manner of things, but when we start to apply that ability in such a way that we modify scripture, then we are effectively saying that we know better than God.

God is loving, but He is also just and true. And He was loving and just and true prior to Christ's sacrifice. I don't think it wise to bank on one aspect of God's nature while ignoring others. If Christ says the will be judgment, that there will be condemnation for those who reject Him (John 3:36), then who am I to doubt Him?

God is loving, so much so that he offered a way by which we can be reconciled to Him. But no one is obligated to accept said gift. Many in this forum have repeatedly stated that they have no interest in being in the presence of the God prayed in scripture. Do you think that God, who imbued man with free will, would ignore people's choice to reject Him? That notion doesn't fit with scripture either.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
This is where, it seems to me, we get ourselves into trouble. We have the ability to discern and mane judgments about all manner of things, but when we start to apply that ability in such a way that we modify scripture, then we are effectively saying that we know better than God.

God is loving, but He is also just and true. And He was loving and just and true prior to Christ's sacrifice. I don't think it wise to bank on one aspect of God's nature while ignoring others. If Christ says the will be judgment, that there will be condemnation for those who reject Him (John 3:36), then who am I to doubt Him?

God is loving, so much so that he offered a way by which we can be reconciled to Him. But no one is obligated to accept said gift. Many in this forum have repeatedly stated that they have no interest in being in the presence of the God prayed in scripture. Do you think that God, who imbued man with free will, would ignore people's choice to reject Him? That notion doesn't fit with scripture either.
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I agree there will be judgement, but I believe the judgement is not eternal damnation. I have cited the bible references that support my belief. The way I've interpreted it.

I think the judgement is a cleansing before man can see the Kingdom of God.

"Mark 9:48-49
48 Where 'Their worm does not die And the fire is not quenched.' 49 For everyone will be seasoned with fire, every sacrifice will be seasoned with salt."

This is where I interpret that judgement will be made and the fire will burn away the ungodly, leaving the perfect creation to enter into Heaven.
 
"1 Corinthians 15:22-23b
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order."

The "each one in his own order" part is this judgement you speak of, but the judgement is going through the cleansing process of the Lake of Fire.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
Many in this forum have repeatedly stated that they have no interest in being in the presence of the God prayed in scripture.
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You shouldn't take this type of statement literally. However it is stated, noting the inconsistent morality of God's actions in the Bible essentially just reduces to an argument that God doesn't exist.

Presumably if for other reasons most atheists came to believe God DID exist, they would at least be open to some sort of justification that they don't currently perceive for multiple genocides etc. in the OT.
 
crowTrobot said:
You shouldn't take this type of statement literally. However it is stated, noting the inconsistent morality of God's actions in the Bible essentially just reduces to an argument that God doesn't exist.

Presumably if for other reasons most atheists came to believe God DID exist, they would at least be open to some sort of justification that they don't currently perceive for multiple genocides etc. in the OT.
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That's your liberal interpretation of their statements. I interpret atheists' anti-God rants literally. I guess you could call me a conservative fundamentalist. :lol:
 
magnifier661 said:
I believe there is a Lake of Fire, but it is a "cleansing tool" so that man can have a second birth.

"John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish (apollymi) but have everlasting life."

Hell fire and brimstone Christians interpret this as some due needed to get into Heaven. I see this as God reaffirming that all will believe in him after death. And when that moment happens, they will see the kingdom of Heaven
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Mags..I have tried to avoid religious debate, I just want to point out that the very example that you use defeats your argument. The key phrase is " who soever believes". That would in itself exclude those that do not.

Sorry, my friend, I cant agree with your re interpretation.
 
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DaLincolnJones said:
Mags..I have tried to avoid religious debate, I just want to point out that the very example that you use defeats your argument. The key phrase is " who soever believes". That would in itself exclude those that do not.

Sorry, my friend, I can agree with your re interpretation.
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I respect your opinion completely. But I would respond "when everyone comes before God, they will believe"

Also, the second death and rebirth through the Lake of fire will be the judgement and cleanse.
 
magnifier661 said:
I respect your opinion completely. But I would respond "when everyone comes before God, they will believe"

Also, the second death and rebirth through the Lake of fire will be the judgement and cleanse.
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Yeah..I understand the argument..I as well believe that those who do not accept Christ will gain the knowledge of the truth when they stand before God. But I have not read anything that would lead me to believe that God is ta that time going to say "Just Kidding, come on in".

We have free will, we can choose to follow or not, and most have an understanding of the consequences. I dont pretend to understand the nature of God, of of Hell, but tend to think of it as has been described as the absence of Gods love.

The concept that this is where we experience "Heaven" or "Hell" is an interesting one..I do believe that without my faith, and the peace I receive, life could be considered a type of hell. But I tend to believe that this sate of lacking or receiving Gods favor will extend beyond this life.
 
DaLincolnJones said:
Yeah..I understand the argument..I as well believe that those who do not accept Christ will gain the knowledge of the truth when they stand before God. But I have not read anything that would lead me to believe that God is ta that time going to say "Just Kidding, come on in".

We have free will, we can choose to follow or not, and most have an understanding of the consequences. I dont pretend to understand the nature of God, of of Hell, but tend to think of it as has been described as the absence of Gods love.

The concept that this is where we experience "Heaven" or "Hell" is an interesting one..I do believe that without my faith, and the peace I receive, life could be considered a type of hell. But I tend to believe that this sate of lacking or receiving Gods favor will extend beyond this life.
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Well, here comes another, wading in over his head. I think the scripture is a little tight where every person must walk the Roman Road and pass the test so that Jesus would not say, I never knew you. There is much good with the teachings of Christianity and impact on the world as a whole is good, but these requirements are too tight. I can not believe God requires every man of good will to squeeze through these test that would exclude every Buddhist, every Hindu, and every Jew with a prior covenant with God. I expect we are missing something, it is illogical to be that tight.
 
MarAzul said:
Well, here comes another, wading in over his head. I think the scripture is a little tight where every person must walk the Roman Road and pass the test so that Jesus would not say, I never knew you. There is much good with the teachings of Christianity and impact on the world as a whole is good, but these requirements are too tight. I can not believe God requires every man of good will to squeeze through these test that would exclude every Buddhist, every Hindu, and every Jew with a prior covenant with God. I expect we are missing something, it is illogical to be that tight.
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"The foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men."
 
PtldPlatypus said:
That's your liberal interpretation of their statements.
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It's more of a psychological analysis. Point is they are reacting to the actions ascribed to God in the OT based on their moral perceptions, not actually reacting to a God that they think exists or even could exist.

It's the same as someone saying I have no interest in serving Joffrey Baratheon as portrayed in GoT.
 
crowTrobot said:
It's more of a psychological analysis. Point is they are reacting to the actions ascribed to God in the OT based on their moral perceptions, not actually reacting to a God that they think exists or even could exist.

It's the same as someone saying I have no interest in serving Joffrey Baratheon as portrayed in GoT.
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I disagree. I'm perfectly capable of forming a reasonable opinion regarding a fictional character. I can absolutely state that I would much rather be represented by Pearson Specter from "Suits" than by "Franklin & Bash" even though neither one actually exists. Why does the reality of the subject necessarily bear on the validity of the claim?
 
PtldPlatypus said:
"The foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of men."
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Yeah, well I hear the Pope might not see it your way. I think he decided the Jew do have a valid prior covenant with God and maybe they won't have to walk the Roman road.
I may watch and find a way to sneak in the back way. Foolishness or not, there is always hope.
 
MarAzul said:
Yeah, well I hear the Pope might not see it your way. I think he decided the Jew do have a valid prior covenant with God and maybe they won't have to walk the Roman road.
I may watch and find a way to sneak in the back way. Foolishness or not, there is always hope.
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Sounds a lot like the movie "Dogma".
 
MarAzul said:
Well, here comes another, wading in over his head. I think the scripture is a little tight where every person must walk the Roman Road and pass the test so that Jesus would not say, I never knew you. There is much good with the teachings of Christianity and impact on the world as a whole is good, but these requirements are too tight. I can not believe God requires every man of good will to squeeze through these test that would exclude every Buddhist, every Hindu, and every Jew with a prior covenant with God. I expect we are missing something, it is illogical to be that tight.
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Hahaha..MarAzul, much respect my friend. I would ask you this. Why is it unreasonable for there to be conditions that must be met in the Christian faith, yet totally reasonable for there to be the same tests and acts that must be met in all other faiths?
 
PtldPlatypus said:
Why does the reality of the subject necessarily bear on the validity of the claim?
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Because the implication is if (a perfect, morally consistent) God actually existed events would have been different than described.
 
DaLincolnJones said:
Hahaha..MarAzul, much respect my friend. I would ask you this. Why is it unreasonable for there to be conditions that must be met in the Christian faith, yet totally reasonable for there to be the same tests and acts that must be met in all other faiths?
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Well, in my reading that I have done, as much as I can in all of them, I think I only find you need to follow the rules to be faithful. Only the Christian religion has this tight requirement that you believe, this man Jesus is God and if you don't get his approval you are not of the faithful.

Actually, not all Christian interpret the Roman Road and Matthew that tight. and the Jews of course can't. Actually I can't, but I don't lose much sleep over it. I just chalk it off to be a man that does the best he can.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
I accept the concept, yes. However I don't presume to understand all the ins and outs thereof. Why do you ask?
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Sorry for the late reply, but I had a customer I had to attend to.

Well if we believe in the Trinity (God the father, son and holy spirit), then our soul is just as much God as our own. If he sends us to "hell" or "The Lake of Fire", he is also sending himself there as well.

When God breathed in us "The breath of life" and gave us a "soul", that was part of him.

This is why I believe God sent him "His son" to Earth to make the final sacrifice, so no part of him must pay for the sin of man.
 
MarAzul said:
Well, in my reading that I have done, as much as I can in all of them, I think I only find you need to follow the rules to be faithful. Only the Christian religion has this tight requirement that you believe, this man Jesus is God and if you don't get his approval you are not of the faithful.

Actually, not all Christian interpret the Roman Road and Matthew that tight. and the Jews of course can't. Actually I can't, but I don't lose much sleep over it. I just chalk it off to be a man that does the best he can.
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Not all "Christians" believe this. And breaking down "Christian" is to be "Christ-like". That connection to me is understanding "Christ's" walk. Was his message "You are going to hell if you don't believe in me" or "Love thy neighbor and enemies"?

I think this "Roman's Road" is not the series of events you must go through before you get to Heaven. Instead, understanding what Christ has done and welcoming him into your life, connects you with him so he may take the burden of death away from you.
 
crowTrobot said:
Because the implication is if (a perfect, morally consistent) God actually existed events would have been different than described.
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That is a one sided assumption. As I have said many times... Free will is what has become the imperfection. It wasn't his mistake that we choose to sin, since it is our choice.

The finality of perfection is after his ultimate sacrifice. That sacrifice paid the price for all Sin.
 
MarAzul said:
Well, in my reading that I have done, as much as I can in all of them, I think I only find you need to follow the rules to be faithful. Only the Christian religion has this tight requirement that you believe, this man Jesus is God and if you don't get his approval you are not of the faithful.

Actually, not all Christian interpret the Roman Road and Matthew that tight. and the Jews of course can't. Actually I can't, but I don't lose much sleep over it. I just chalk it off to be a man that does the best he can.
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hummm not so, Mar..Every religion is based upon belief in a Messiah figure..every religion, you must follow the path set before you to be accepted or rewarded in the next life..

I know you are an educated man, I believe you when you say you have read some on other religions..you know I speak the truth. Requirements of faith and belief are the foundation of religions.
 
magnifier661 said:
Not all "Christians" believe this. And breaking down "Christian" is to be "Christ-like". That connection to me is understanding "Christ's" walk. Was his message "You are going to hell if you don't believe in me" or "Love thy neighbor and enemies"?

I think this "Roman's Road" is not the series of events you must go through before you get to Heaven. Instead, understanding what Christ has done and welcoming him into your life, connects you with him so he may take the burden of death away from you.
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Thank you Mags
but I think I will be ok.
 
magnifier661 said:
Free will is what has become the imperfection. It wasn't his mistake that we choose to sin, since it is our choice.
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It was god's choice to make us imperfect, in this belief system. If that idea is that our free will cannot exist if we were made perfect, that leads to the question: is god perfect? If so, does it have free will?

Most Christian conceptions of god speak to its perfection. I've never seen a Christian broach the subject of whether god has free will, but I've always assumed that they'd believe it does. If so, that illustrates that one can both be perfect and have free will. If not, well, that's interesting...what would constrain an omnipotent and omniscient god's choices?
 
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