What if I told you no one is going to hell?

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Minstrel said:
I don't think you're quite understanding. The choice can have potential evil, but there still exists a possible universe were each human never makes the evil choice even though they could have.

Thus, humans still have free will but, due to the possible universe that god selected to make real, no evil choices are actually made.
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Unless of course that universe is impossible
 
Minstrel said:
Again, you speak as if there's no omnipotent god and things just "happen." An omnipotent god can choose the "shape," and it could choose the universe in which every human happened to make the correct moral decision. While we see no purely good or evil people, every opportunity to make a choice carries a probability that someone will make one choice or another. That probabilistic nature means that there's a chance (an exceedingly tiny one, but still a chance) that all humans could make the right choices. In our universe, obviously, they haven't...but since the chance is there, there is a possible universe where they did. And an omnipotent god could have chosen that universe in which free-willed humans just happened to make only wise choices.
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Isn't it possible that your understanding of omnipotence is flawed?
 
magnifier661 said:
Unless of course that universe is impossible
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Right, but why would it be? Every choice involves a probability that we do the right thing or wrong thing. That universe is "just" the product of all the probabilities that we do the right thing across every possible choice we make. Indescribably tiny, but not necessarily zero.
 
Minstrel said:
Right, but why would it be? Every choice involves a probability that we do the right thing or wrong thing. That universe is "just" the product of all the probabilities that we do the right thing across every possible choice we make. Indescribably tiny, but not necessarily zero.
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Remember that I am using the push pull theory?
 
magnifier661 said:
Remember that I am using the push pull theory?
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Yes, but all of this arose from me questioning you about it. ;) What's the benefit of "balance" if we could theoretically have free will and no evil choices? (The above stuff was my explanation for how we could have both.)
 
I'm omnipotent, I can get any mammal pregnant.
 
Minstrel said:
I'm not following you. Omnipotence, by definition, sets the scope...no boundaries, all-encompassing.
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What is your basis for your consideration of the Judeo-Christian God as absolutely without limitation on anything? Anecdotal or scriptural? Is it possible that you're using others' flawed interpretations of scripture as the basis for your logical argument?

If the underlying assumptions are flawed, then the argument is flawed.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
What is your basis for your consideration of the Judeo-Christian God as absolutely without limitation on anything? Anecdotal or scriptural? Is it possible that you're using others' flawed interpretations of scripture as the basis for your logical argument?
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Well, I'm going by Christian doctrine (as I have heard it) that god is omnipotent. The word has a specific meaning. If you're saying that Christians use the word differently, perhaps you could explain what "omnipotence" means within Christianity.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Easy?!? Lets see you bag a drunk badger.
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Easier, as a mammal yourself, than getting a spider pregnant. Or a snake. Seriously, on a relative basis, limiting yourself to the same class of animal that you, yourself, are is basically shooting fish in a barrel (of course, I don't mean that metaphorically...you can't impregnate fish, for all your claims of omnipotence).
 
Minstrel said:
Well, I'm going by Christian doctrine (as I have heard it) that god is omnipotent. The word has a specific meaning. If you're saying that Christians use the word differently, perhaps you could explain what "omnipotence" means within Christianity.
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I'm not "saying" anything; I'm asking questions. What if Christians have been misinterpreting the concept of omnipotence all along? What are the scriptural bases for the doctrine of omnipotence? Does God's power extend only to the physical world (ie, manipulation of His creation)? Does He actually have the ability to override free will?

Pertinent to this discussion, did He actually have the option (as you purport) to choose whichever one of the infinitely possible universes would result in a sinless humanity? Or is that an invalid conclusion based on an incorrect assumption?

I don't know, but it's worthy of consideration.
 
PtldPlatypus said:
I'm not "saying" anything; I'm asking questions. What if Christians have been misinterpreting the concept of omnipotence all along? What are the scriptural bases for the doctrine of omnipotence? Does God's power extend only to the physical world (ie, manipulation of His creation)? Does He actually have the ability to override free will?

Pertinent to this discussion, did He actually have the option (as you purport) to choose whichever one of the infinitely possible universes would result in a sinless humanity? Or is that an invalid conclusion based on an incorrect assumption?

I don't know, but it's worthy of consideration.
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Well, I assumed that all of these discussions were under the implicit assumption that we could have flawed understanding. From my perspective, we don't know if there is a god or not, we don't know if Christianity is right about god if even if there is a god, and even if Christianity is correct, god would still be largely unknowable for humans.

I'm simply investigating the philosophical implications that interest me, like whether free will and perfection (moral or otherwise) are mutually exclusive. Logically, I would say they are not, but it's certainly another question worth consideration as to whether god has the power to implement both. Though that's not really a question we can investigate.
 
Minstrel said:
Well, I assumed that all of these discussions were under the implicit assumption that we could have flawed understanding. From my perspective, we don't know if there is a god or not, we don't know if Christianity is right about god if even if there is a god, and even if Christianity is correct, god would still be largely unknowable for humans.

I'm simply investigating the philosophical implications that interest me, like whether free will and perfection (moral or otherwise) are mutually exclusive. Logically, I would say they are not, but it's certainly another question worth consideration as to whether god has the power to implement both. Though that's not really a question we can investigate.
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If we are looking at the Christian philosophy, that time hasn't come yet, but God has devised this universe or "Heaven".

I guess we all should be more specific in our conversation.
 
And in Christian philosophy, maybe God's omnipotence is in play here? What if obtaining a sinless free will world must go through the process and growing pains of sin and acceptance of those sins?

And God knew this all along
 
Breaking a bit away from Christian theology, there is another philosophical theory of "levels of consciousness". In this theory man must walk up a staircase of consciousness to evolve into a war free moral state. That in process, there is wars, murders and what have you which adds wisdom to the consciousness.

Basically, do it wrong thousands of times and eventually you will find the right answer.
 
magnifier661 said:
Breaking a bit away from Christian theology, there is another philosophical theory of "levels of consciousness". In this theory man must walk up a staircase of consciousness to evolve into a war free moral state. That in process, there is wars, murders and what have you which adds wisdom to the consciousness.

Basically, do it wrong thousands of times and eventually you will find the right answer.
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That's basically the Hindu concept of reincarnation, applied to souls. Your soul keeps returning to Earth until you attain enlightenment over many lives' worth of experience and understanding.
 
Minstrel said:
That's basically the Hindu concept of reincarnation, applied to souls. Your soul keeps returning to Earth until you attain enlightenment over many lives' worth of experience and understanding.
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And?
 
The concept of hell has holes in it. Do all dead babies go to Hell since they never had a chance to accept Jesus as their personal savior? And if babies get a pass and go straight to Heaven, what is the cut off year? 4? 5? 12? Also, does a starving child in Africa who's never heard of Jesus go to hell when he or she dies? Also, does a guy who is an an atheist but a loving philanthropic man or woman go to Hell while a mass murderer who found Jesus on Death Row goes to Heaven after the electric chair? Doesn't make sense to me.
 
magnifier661 said:
http://www.spiritscienceandmetaphys...hy-does-he-allow-evil-and-suffering-to-exist/

This is a link I would love you to read minstrel. This is somewhat of a philosophical response of the omnipotent God
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I read it, but I didn't find it compelling. It basically boils down to the same cliches, "God has reasons, which we cannot fathom. Besides, free will."

It's clearly aimed at people of faith who question why god would let bad things happen--you need to already have faith to accept that sort of answer. It's not very convincing to someone who doesn't have faith and needs more than, "God has reasons that make sense to it even if not to us."
 
Minstrel said:
I read it, but I didn't find it compelling. It basically boils down to the same cliches, "God has reasons, which we cannot fathom. Besides, free will."

It's clearly aimed at people of faith who question why god would let bad things happen--you need to already have faith to accept that sort of answer. It's not very convincing to someone who doesn't have faith and needs more than, "God has reasons that make sense to it even if not to us."
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Let's get simple...

Let's say you are 8 years old. For some silly reason you decide to put your hand in a pot of boiling water. You get severe burns and cry for a few days.

From your action, which we can assume God would also think is a bad idea, you learn that sticking your hand in a boiling pot of hot water just burned the fuck out of your hand. If God knew what was good for you, I bet you would argue he would or even should stop you from putting your hand in boiling water. And at that time you blast God for allowing it to happen. But I would bet your left nut that you won't put your hand in water again.

I believe God "does allow things to happen" even if it seems sooo evil. Not because he's some psychotic puppet master, but to allow our free will to teach us how to be more human, alive and compassionate.

Now if God made some "perfect world" and constructed a system without "evil" or "sin" then how will we learn and grow? And mainly, how could that be "free will"?
 
magnifier661 said:
Let's get simple...

Let's say you are 8 years old. For some silly reason you decide to put your hand in a pot of boiling water. You get severe burns and cry for a few days.

From your action, which we can assume God would also think is a bad idea, you learn that sticking your hand in a boiling pot of hot water just burned the fuck out of your hand. If God knew what was good for you, I bet you would argue he would or even should stop you from putting your hand in boiling water. And at that time you blast God for allowing it to happen. But I would bet your left nut that you won't put your hand in water again.

I believe God "does allow things to happen" even if it seems sooo evil. Not because he's some psychotic puppet master, but to allow our free will to teach us how to be more human, alive and compassionate.

Now if God made some "perfect world" and constructed a system without "evil" or "sin" then how will we learn and grow? And mainly, how could that be "free will"?
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How did the victims of the Holocaust learn and grow? These examples seem a bit facile when they're of trivial overall importance with a morale to the story, like Afterschool Specials. When it comes to serious, hardcore suffering, these cliches fall a lot flatter. What are children born to poverty in Africa learning as they starve? Is it character building to never know anything but misery and then die?

And I've already explained several times how free will can exist alongside "perfection" or "lack of evil." If god is omnipotent (by the classical definition of the word), it's certainly logically possible to construct a universe in which people don't suffer and still have free will. If god is not omnipotent, then we're talking about a very different concept.
 
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