What if I told you that there is no "heaven" for "righteous souls"

[magnifier661]

and once again, you are back to where I ask, so..you blame God for giving man free will..again you might as well blame gravity if you are dumb enough to walk off a cliff

Well said...

 

[RR7]

Then you just supported the contradiction.

/end debate

NOt at all. I said they can be evil and spiteful. That some have those traits. Saying man is evil and spiteful in some instances does not at all equate to man is evil for punishing people. Which is where you said the contradiction arises from.

 

[magnifier661]

NOt at all. I said they can be evil and spiteful. That some have those traits. Saying man is evil and spiteful in some instances does not at all equate to man is evil for punishing people. Which is where you said the contradiction arises from.

The contradiction is from the argument...

That argument of "Why should I love or believe in God when he is evil and spiteful"?, using hell as proof.

Yet here you are loving man for acting in the same manner.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

and once again, you are back to where I ask, so..you blame God for giving man free will..again you might as well blame gravity if you are dumb enough to walk off a cliff

Why is it unreasonable for the atheist to say that if God did exist, any punishment would be God's fault for giving man free will? If the argument is:
1) God created with free will
2) God punishes man for exercising free will
Therefore, it is God's fault that man is punished.

Where is the fallacy in that argument? Before you attempt a terrestrial analogy keep in mind:
a) Man did not choose to be created
b) Man did not choose to be given free will

These two facts create a significant difference between man's position with other men and man's position with God.

 

[RR7]

The contradiction is from the argument...

That argument of "Why should I love or believe in God when he is evil and spiteful"?, using hell as proof.

Yet here you are loving man for acting in the same manner.

I don't love all of mankind equally. and, AGAIN, man being evil and god being evil are on different planes, to me.

 

[magnifier661]

Why is it unreasonable for the atheist to blame God for giving man free will? If the argument is:
1) God created with free will
2) God punishes man for exercising free will
Therefore, it is God's fault that man is punished.

Where is the fallacy in that argument? Before you attempt a terrestrial analogy keep in mind:
a) Man did not choose to be created
b) Man did not choose to be given free will

These two facts create a significant difference between man's position with other men and man's position with God.

Thank you for giving a very good outline!

And this only outlines the contradiction.

As I told RR7 earlier...

1) Man knows free will causes harm
2.) Man decides to procreate, knowing free will will harm their children
3.) Therefore, it is man's fault for bringing children to this world.

Same applies, which supports the contradicting claim.

 

[magnifier661]

I don't love all of mankind equally. and, AGAIN, man being evil and god being evil are on different planes, to me.

Loving one man is all you need to make your statement a total contradiction

Lets say you got 1 billion math equations right, but missed 1 + 1 = 2

Well you didn't get a perfect score.

 

[RR7]

Loving one man is all you need to make your statement a total contradiction

Lets say you got 1 billion math equations right, but missed 1 + 1 = 2

Well you didn't get a perfect score.

Your math equation is...babbling really. Whatever
Man punishes evil actions.
god of the bible punishes disbelief with an eternity in hell. Also punishes other actions with a similar fate. Man didn't design from scratch, man. I think the creator of EVERYTHING should be held to a higher standard than that which he created if he is all knowing and all powerful. If man was all powerful and all knowing, then I would have a similar anger at them for sending someone to prison for life without parole.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

1) Man knows free will causes harm
2.) Man decides to procreate, knowing free will will harm their children
3.) Therefore, it is man's fault for bringing children to this world.

Same applies, which supports the contradicting claim.

Not at all. There are two ways to view this--from the theist perspective, and from the atheist perspective.

From the theist perspective--God creates life, not man. Any life created through procreation is created by God, so He is sitll responsible.

From the atheist perspective--Man creates life, but free will does not necessarily produce harm, only the natural result of choices. Good and bad are relative based on perspective.

Your argument involves schools of thought from two incompatible perspectives, (item 1 is from the theist, item 2 is from the atheist), so your argument cannot hold water.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I think the creator of EVERYTHING should be held to a higher standard than that which he created if he is all knowing and all powerful.

the idea that the creation would be able to hold the creator to any standard is laughable.

 

[magnifier661]

Your math equation is...babbling really. Whatever
Man punishes evil actions.
god of the bible punishes disbelief with an eternity in hell. Also punishes other actions with a similar fate. Man didn't design from scratch, man. I think the creator of EVERYTHING should be held to a higher standard than that which he created if he is all knowing and all powerful. If man was all powerful and all knowing, then I would have a similar anger at them for sending someone to prison for life without parole.

Ahhh so this is a morality issue then? This is where you will lose. I can name off multiple countries that have conflicting laws. So which one do we go by? Maybe disbelief is breaking the law? Some countries punish people for not believing their king is law.

And lets really look into the contradiction shall we????

The United States is the most powerful country in the world. Some could argue "being all powerful" in the natural "earth world". So United States punishes, which would be this same abuse you just described.

 

[magnifier661]

Not at all. There are two ways to view this--from the theist perspective, and from the atheist perspective.

From the theist perspective--God creates life, not man. Any life created through procreation is created by God, so He is sitll responsible.

From the atheist perspective--Man creates life, but free will does not necessarily produce harm, only the natural result of choices. Good and bad are relative based on perspective.

Your argument involves schools of thought from two incompatible perspectives, (item 1 is from the theist, item 2 is from the atheist), so your argument cannot hold water.

The argument has nothing to do with the theist's views. We are working the beliefs of an atheist only... Keep that in mind.

The Atheist believes God gave man free will;
Free will advocates harm to humanity;
therefor God is evil

But I turn that same argument around

I believe Man knows that man has free will;
Man procreates, knowing free will advocates harm to humanity;
therefore Man is evil.

Both are compatible arguments. And the contradiction lies that man does not want to blame themselves for evil.

 

[BLAZINGGIANTS]

What if I told you that there is no "heaven" for "right-ass holes"?

 

[RR7]

Ahhh so this is a morality issue then? This is where you will lose. I can name off multiple countries that have conflicting laws. So which one do we go by? Maybe disbelief is breaking the law? Some countries punish people for not believing their king is law.

And lets really look into the contradiction shall we????

The United States is the most powerful country in the world. Some could argue "being all powerful" in the natural "earth world". So United States punishes, which would be this same abuse you just described.

this is where I lose? You can't even follow a simple outline for an argument. It's why every thread like this with you goes to 20 pages. You just start creating inaccurate comparisons and making false assumptions on others opinions. The U.S. as god is just going off to a tangent irrelevant to the initial statement. I fail to see the relevance of countries and their laws. Me creating life is different than god of the bible creating life.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Why is it unreasonable for the atheist to say that if God did exist, any punishment would be God's fault for giving man free will? If the argument is:
1) God created with free will
2) God punishes man for exercising free will
Therefore, it is God's fault that man is punished.

Where is the fallacy in that argument? Before you attempt a terrestrial analogy keep in mind:
a) Man did not choose to be created
b) Man did not choose to be given free will

These two facts create a significant difference between man's position with other men and man's position with God.

Ok, now that is the most solid argument presented on the topic.

Lets take this one step further

God created man
God gave man free will
God gave man a script to follow and warned of the dangers of straying off the path

To say it is unfair, that God being omnipotent already knew who would succeed and who would fail, is a valid point. But man is not God, we do not already know everything. We will not know until we meet God. Free will does allow each of us to choose our fate.

As far as mans position with God vs mans position with man, To compare man to God is folly. Man is born into sin, God is not

 

[RR7]

The argument has nothing to do with the theist's views. We are working the beliefs of an atheist only... Keep that in mind.

The Atheist believes God gave man free will;
Free will advocates harm to humanity;
therefor God is evil

But I turn that same argument around

I believe Man knows that man has free will;
Man procreates, knowing free will advocates harm to humanity;
therefore Man is evil.

Both are compatible arguments. And the contradiction lies that man does not want to blame themselves for evil.

I would argue that the atheist that believes god gave man free will is not an atheist.

 

[magnifier661]

this is where I lose? You can't even follow a simple outline for an argument. It's why every thread like this with you goes to 20 pages. You just start creating inaccurate comparisons and making false assumptions on others opinions. The U.S. as god is just going off to a tangent irrelevant to the initial statement. Me creating life is different than god of the bible creating life.

Hahahaha bro, you are meshing God and naturalism together... I am replying metaphorically speaking at the naturalist's level. See the forrest through the trees bro.

We are debating on the "Atheist's" view. They don't believe in God right? So comparison must be made at the natural level.

Try and follow along

 

[PtldPlatypus]

The argument has nothing to do with the theist's views. We are working the beliefs of an atheist only... Keep that in mind.

The Atheist believes God gave man free will;
Free will advocates harm to humanity;
therefor God is evil

But I turn that same argument around

I believe Man knows that man has free will;
Man procreates, knowing free will advocates harm to humanity;
therefore Man is evil.

Both are compatible arguments. And the contradiction lies that man does not want to blame themselves for evil.

Mags, you're obfuscating the original statement, that some responsibility for eternal damnation falls on God. Whether or not man is evil has no bearing on the original claim--that God created man, and that God punishes man because of the way he created man. The claim is not that God is evil--the claim is that God is responsible.

How do you absolve God of the responsibility for giving man the free will for which he is punished?

 

[magnifier661]

I would argue that the atheist that believes god gave man free will is not an atheist.

Oh my... Now you are arguing semantics and grammatical errors?!?!

It was meant "Atheists believe "if" God gave man free will"

 

[magnifier661]

Mags, you're obfuscating the original statement, that some responsibility for eternal damnation falls on God. Whether or not man is evil has no bearing on the original claim--that God created man, and that God punishes man because of the way he created man. The claim is not that God is evil--the claim is that God is responsible.

How do you absolve God of the responsibility for giving man the free will for which he is punished?

Bro, the atheist do not believe in God. How can they blame him?

They are using the idea that God created man with free will and knew we would be punished.

That argument is the contradiction because Atheists believe they are good, yet they are doing the same thing in the natural world.

 

[RR7]

Oh my... Now you are arguing semantics and grammatical errors?!?!

It was meant "Atheists believe "if" God gave man free will"

No, it was a joke. Sorry I forgot you don't like those.

 

[RR7]

Hahahaha bro, you are meshing God and naturalism together... I am replying metaphorically speaking at the naturalist's level. See the forrest through the trees bro.

We are debating on the "Atheist's" view. They don't believe in God right? So comparison must be made at the natural level.

Try and follow along

I'm trying to follow a moving and obscured path. I don't see what countries laws or the US have to do with your original contradiction claim. If you can get me there reasonably in under 500 words, I'd be happy to see how it fits the argument though

 

[magnifier661]

No, it was a joke. Sorry I forgot you don't like those.

I love jokes, but your delivery is in bad timing. Or maybe the joke was needed because you couldn't rebut the post?

 

[magnifier661]

RR7, I will summarize shortly. Lunch at work and I need to finish this contract.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

As far as mans position with God vs mans position with man, To compare man to God is folly. Man is born into sin, God is not

Agreed--that's why I wanted to prevent that. OK--back on topic...

Lets take this one step further

God created man
God gave man free will
God gave man a script to follow and warned of the dangers of straying off the path

To say it is unfair, that God being omnipotent already knew who would succeed and who would fail, is a valid point. But man is not God, we do not already know everything. We will not know until we meet God. Free will does allow each of us to choose our fate.

But, as you said, each man is born into sin. Sin that existed prior to each man (except Adam) being born. In that regard, man does not choose his fate, because he is sinful and subject to punishment before he even has the ability to choose. And he is born into that state, based on the conditions created by God. So again, we return to the notion that God creates sinners, then punishes them

 

[RR7]

Bro, the atheist do not believe in God. How can they blame him?

They are using the idea that God created man with free will and knew we would be punished.

That argument is the contradiction because Atheists believe they are good, yet they are doing the same thing in the natural world.

But we're not doubt the same. I would blame a computer programmer for poor design if they knowingly built a faulty program. If they had the ability to make it not have a bug, say. Or left it open to easily catch a virus when they could have made it impervious to virus.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Bro, the atheist do not believe in God. How can they blame him?

They are using the idea that God created man with free will and knew we would be punished.

That argument is the contradiction because Atheists believe they are good, yet they are doing the same thing in the natural world.

So, let's go back to the original argument. You say it's a contradiction for atheists to support life imprisonment--given the belief that existence ceases completely at physical death--but to decry God condemning sinners to Hell if the soul does in fact persist after death, correct?

I just want to make sure we're on the same page before I respond; I would hate to destroy a strawman.

 

[magnifier661]

So, let's go back to the original argument. You say it's a contradiction for atheists to support life imprisonment--given the belief that existence ceases completely at physical death--but to decry God condemning sinners to Hell if the soul does in fact persist after death, correct?

I just want to make sure we're on the same page before I respond; I would hate to destroy a strawman.

Yes, with the understanding that an Atheist believes that when we die, we are dead. Our life on this planet is our only life. They do not believe in afterlife.

Now for their argument of a theist is based that on the theoretical chance that our life on this planet isn't our only life. That we will have an eternal life.

In the Atheist's frame of mind... Their belief that our existence is only on this planet = a theistic view that our life is actually eternal

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Agreed--that's why I wanted to prevent that. OK--back on topic...



But, as you said, each man is born into sin. Sin that existed prior to each man (except Adam) being born. In that regard, man does not choose his fate, because he is sinful and subject to punishment before he even has the ability to choose. And he is born into that state, based on the conditions created by God. So again, we return to the notion that God creates sinners, then punishes them

I dont understand the nature of God. How do you know that those that are damned to hell are truly beings with souls? Does he populate the world with creations other than man? Is this whole production only a test? Is there redemption beyond what we have been told? Why would God create a being placed above angles and breath into it a soul, yet make it imperfect?

I believe that from an atheist point, there is no God, so there is nothing to be blamed.

From my point, I do believe that man chooses his fate. You were not born knowing if your name was in Gods book or not.

 

[crowTrobot]

Yes, with the understanding that an Atheist believes that when we die, we are dead. Our life on this planet is our only life. They do not believe in afterlife.

You're making a semantic error here. Theism/atheism describes belief or lack of belief in God, not if there is an afterlife or not.

An atheist can believe in an afterlife - I know a few who do, and have read a few prominent ones who don't rule it out entirely (including Sam Harris).

And technically a theist does not have to believe in an afterlife, although almost all do.