OT What if we don’t look at an individual case but at trends and statistics?

[Further]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile...qual-sentences-for-blacks-and-whites.amp.html

Unequal Sentences for Blacks and Whites

Inmates at the Gadsden County Jail in Quincy, Florida.FRED R. CONRAD FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES
By THE EDITORIAL BOARD

Dec. 17, 2016
Decades of research have shown that the criminal courts sentence black defendants more harshly than whites. But a striking new investigation of sentencing disparities in Florida by The Sarasota Herald-Tribune expands our understanding of this problem in two important ways.

It exposes the fact that African-American defendants get more time behind bars — sometimes twice the prison terms of whites with identical criminal histories — when they commit the same crimes under identical circumstances. It also shows how bias on the part of individual judges and prosecutors drives sentencing inequity.

The Florida Legislature has been wrestling with this issue for decades. In the 1980s, for example, it tried to change sentencing policies that varied widely from place to place by creating sentencing guidelines. Today, prosecutors assign defendants points — based on the seriousness of their crime, the circumstances of their arrest and whether or not they have prior convictions — to determine the minimum sentence required by law.

In a fair system, black and white defendants who score the same number of points under this formula would spend the same time beyond bars. But The Herald-Tribune found that judges disregard the guidelines, sentencing black defendants to longer prison terms in 60 percent of felony cases, 68 percent of serious, first-degree crimes and 45 percent of burglaries. In third-degree felony cases — the least serious and broadest class of felonies — white Florida judges sentenced black defendants to 20 percent more prison time than white defendants.

The war on drugs weighs particularly heavily on black defendants. The police target their neighborhoods, herding people into a court system where judges are demonstrably harder on black offenders. The report found that nearly half of the counties in Florida sentenced African-Americans convicted of felony drug possession to more than double the jail time of whites — even when their backgrounds were the same.

Prosecutors and defense lawyers have come to accept this racist system as a fact of life. The Herald-Tribune cited two teenagers who were charged with armed robbery in the same county. Prosecutors and the defense lawyer, with the approval of one judge, ignored the sentencing guidelines for the white teenager and struck a plea agreement for probation with no jail time. The black teenager was sentenced to four years, as recommended under the guidelines, and was told by his lawyer that it was the best deal he could get.


Same Crime, More TimeBY THE NEW YORK TIMES
The Florida system is inflicting a form of racial persecution that is strongly reminiscent of the Jim Crow era. The state’s sentencing structure is obviously in need of reform. Part of the solution may be for the courts to issue regular public reports detailing the sentencing decisions of individual judges and showing how they relate to guidelines. That would throw a spotlight on what is clearly a festering injustice.

 

[Natebishop3]

Are there statistics about sentences for rich vs poor?

 

[Further]

Are there statistics about sentences for rich vs poor?

I haven’t read it yet, but I found this
https://www.researchgate.net/blog/p...e-us-justice-system-for-the-rich-and-the-poor

Two in one: differences in the US justice system for the rich and the poor
14th April 2016
by Maarten Rikken
One in ten Black males in their thirties is in prison or jail in the United States. A grim reminder that the country has two criminal systems: one for the poor, one for the rich, says expert on sentencing policy.

More than 60% of all people in US prison are now racial and ethnic minorities, and the vast majority are poor. The Sentencing Project, an NGO dedicated to addressing unjust and ineffective sentencing policies, wrote in a 2013 report that United States has two criminal justice systems: one for wealthy people and another for poor people and minorities.

We spoke to Marc Mauer, Executive Director of the Sentencing Project and one of the country’s leading experts on sentencing policy, race and the criminal justice system, about the disparity.

ResearchGate: Can you give us some background into what the Sentencing Project is about?

Mauer: The Sentencing Project was founded 30 years ago as an NGO dedicated to reducing the scale of incarceration in the U.S. by addressing unjust and ineffective sentencing policies. The organization produces research on trends and problems within the criminal justice system, advocates for changes in policy and practice to reduce excessive prison terms, and promotes racial justice as a key element of criminal justice reform.

RG: In 2013, a Sentencing Project reportnoted that “The United States in effect operates two distinct criminal justice systems: one for wealthy people and another for poor people and minorities.” What does this mean?

Mauer: While the law is theoretically race- and class-neutral, in practice access to resources creates great disparities in how justice is dispensed in the U.S. Poor communities and indigent defendants are disadvantaged at each stage of the criminal justice process, including: law enforcement policies such as "stop and frisk" are employed heavily in low-income communities of color, even though the vast majority of persons stopped by police have committed no crime; money bail as a condition of pretrial release results in the detention of poor people, limiting access to counsel and causing family hardship; indigent defendants have to rely on court-appointed attorneys, many of whom are inexperienced and/or maintain high caseloads; given the limited availability of publicly-funded treatment programs, access to such services as an alternative to incarceration is much more available to defendants with family resources to pay fees.

RG: How has this dual system contributed to disproportionate incarceration of poor people and minorities?

Mauer: Skewed policing practices contribute to disproportionate incarceration of low-income people of color, particularly for drug offenses. While people of different racial/ethnic groups use and sell drugs at roughly similar rates, drug law enforcement is more heavily focused on communities of color, leading to higher rates of incarceration. Other factors as well, such as pretrial detention, have been demonstrated to lead to a greater likelihood of conviction and prison term upon conviction.

RG: What is it about the “two systems” that is benefiting the wealthy and non-minorities? How are they able to exploit the system?

Mauer: In general, wealthy people are not exploiting the system, but rather are able to take advantage of the rights afforded to everyone under our system of government to a degree that is not available to poor people. This plays out in the ability to post bail, to hire capable defense counsel, to present a plan for alternative sentencing, and other areas. Rather than criticize their ability to do so, we should instead hold this up as the standard of justice for all people, not just those with means.

RG: We interviewed professor Mona Lynchabout the damage of mass incarceration and she mentioned “Clinton’s 2015 admission [that his crime law made the problem worse] demonstrates just how much has changed in the political arena. Now, it looks like fixing criminal justice, rather than combatting crime, can be a strategic political position.” What is your opinion on this?

Mauer: Over the past decade there has been an evolving political climate on criminal justice reform, with key leaders in both major political parties increasingly supportive of addressing mass incarceration. Both Democratic and Republican governors in a number of states have endorsed sentencing reform legislation, particularly in regard to drug offenses, and bipartisan legislation is pending in Congress that would scale back excessive penalties in many federal cases. While these developments are encouraging, we are not yet at the point where justice reform is uniformly viewed as being politically advantageous, and there are still far too many instances of political leaders being either hesitant or hostile to considering such policy changes.

RG: Are politicians taking the right steps and are they actually substantial?

Mauer: Yes, and we've seen political leaders embrace a variety of substantial reforms, often following upon longstanding advocacy campaigns. Highlights include: the 2010 adoption by Congress of the Fair Sentencing Act, reducing excessive sentences for crack cocaine offenses; seven states abolishing the death penalty over the past decade; California voters supporting Proposition 47 in 2014, reducing six low-level property and drug offenses from felonies to misdemeanors.

RG: Do you know of any other countries where a similar “dual system” could impede prosecution in the Panama papers case?

Mauer: I can't speak to prosecution of these offenses, but we do know that race and class disparities are generally pervasive around the world. For example, the scale of incarceration disparities between Native people in Canada and Aboriginal people in Australia compared to whites is similar to the black/white disparity in the U.S.

 

[Further]

It is certainly possible (likely)that the justice system is biased both against Blacks and against the poor.

 

[Natebishop3]

It is certainly possible (likely)that the justice system is biased both against Blacks and against the poor.

Well, the first and most obvious example would be a rich person being able to afford one or more qualified lawyers.

A poor person would only have the public defender.

 

[Further]

Well, the first and most obvious example would be a rich person being able to afford one or more qualified lawyers.

A poor person would only have the public defender.

So we have several issues that all need to be addressed.
1) a general disparity in the quality of the legal representation based on finances.
2) racism or bias from prosecutors, judges and investigators.
3) general societal economic biases keeping Blacks poorer on average than whites leading to a cycle of more systemic racism.

 

[Further]

I’m not trying to prove a specific point, I’m just trying to take this discussion away from an example people of any side could dismiss as an outlier.

 

[Lanny]

Are there statistics about sentences for rich vs poor?

Yes

 

[Cippy91]

So we have several issues that all need to be addressed.
1) a general disparity in the quality of the legal representation based on finances.
2) racism or bias from prosecutors, judges and investigators.
3) general societal economic biases keeping Blacks poorer on average than whites leading to a cycle of more systemic racism.

First of all, there isn’t some grand conspiracy to keep blacks poorer. Doesn’t matter what color, generally they stay poor and have, white or black. Once again, I urge you to maybe look at certain communities in this country and just maybe you will see there isn’t this systemic racism thing going on. At this point it’s a culture. Do you listen to the hip hop that’s out now? Do you know anything about the culture? Seems not. I think a lot of black communities need to look within instead of blaming white people. There are a lot of poor white people as well stuck as heroin addicts. That’s on them to figure out. You are giving these communities a way out with excuses when the answers are all there if you truly look.

 

[Natebishop3]

So we have several issues that all need to be addressed.
1) a general disparity in the quality of the legal representation based on finances.
2) racism or bias from prosecutors, judges and investigators.
3) general societal economic biases keeping Blacks poorer on average than whites leading to a cycle of more systemic racism.

And are the societal economic biases leading to less funding in black or poor neighborhoods, which leads to a poor education, which leads to the cycle perpetuating itself?

I remember reading a story, and I wish I could find it, but some woman personally sent 20 kids to college in a black neighborhood, and her involvement reduced gang related violence and behavior in that area drastically. I wish I could find it again... I'll look around.

edit - I'm not sure if this was the story.... it sounds a little bit like it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/26/us/tangelo-park-orlando-florida.html

 

[Lanny]

And are the societal economic biases leading to less funding in black or poor neighborhoods, which leads to a poor education, which leads to the cycle perpetuating itself?

I remember reading a story, and I wish I could find it, but some woman personally sent 20 kids to college in a black neighborhood, and her involvement reduced gang related violence and behavior in that area drastically. I wish I could find it again... I'll look around.

edit - I'm not sure if this was the story.... it sounds a little bit like it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/26/us/tangelo-park-orlando-florida.html

It sounds pretty believable to me.

 

[donkiez]

First of all, there isn’t some grand conspiracy to keep blacks poorer. Doesn’t matter what color, generally they stay poor and have, white or black. Once again, I urge you to maybe look at certain communities in this country and just maybe you will see there isn’t this systemic racism thing going on. At this point it’s a culture. Do you listen to the hip hop that’s out now? Do you know anything about the culture? Seems not. I think a lot of black communities need to look within instead of blaming white people. There are a lot of poor white people as well stuck as heroin addicts. That’s on them to figure out. You are giving these communities a way out with excuses when the answers are all there if you truly look.

There is a lot of truth in your statement, but how do you think centuries of slavery have played into the accumulated wealth of today's African Americans vs others?

 

[Cippy91]

There is a lot of truth in your statement, but how do you think centuries of slavery have played into the accumulated wealth of today's African Americans vs others?

I’m not entirely sure and I don’t think anybody else can be entirely sure. We can’t sit and say look guys crime and violence is okay because slavery. That makes no sense. Plenty of black people who care from rough areas or childhoods were able to get out of it and make millions. There are tons of poor white and black people. Yes, it seems it’s just a revolving door but honestly it comes down to education in these areas and broken parents. A lot of poor people just aren’t educated. They keep having kids and in the black communities it’s more prevalent for the father to just bounce and typically raises by single mothers or grandparents. I’m not blaming black or white people, I’m just saying, instead of saying the system is just racist, maybe there is a reason the jail population is mostly black. Why do people want to make excuses for communities when you can hear it in the music and you can see the violence in cities. There is a reason people don’t walk certain blocks. It’s not racism. It’s because of crime. Why are we giving excuses and acting like the black community isn’t littered with violence? Yet when it comes to white people everybody will acknowledge the issues with heroin and opiates which there is a giant issue. It’s like no matter how many prison documentaries or documentaries in general I could point to, certain people that push certain narratives will just ignore the issue and that doesn’t help anybody.

Yes I’m sure there have been racist judges or people on the jury, etc. matter of fact I’m sure of it. However you can’t just chalk up the whole issue to be racism. That’s the smallest part of the issue. Yet nobody wants to really acknowledge the real issues.

 

[Chris Craig]

Are there statistics about sentences for rich vs poor?

Yes, rich peoples sentences are more formal and gramatically correct.

 

[Further]

And are the societal economic biases leading to less funding in black or poor neighborhoods, which leads to a poor education, which leads to the cycle perpetuating itself?

I remember reading a story, and I wish I could find it, but some woman personally sent 20 kids to college in a black neighborhood, and her involvement reduced gang related violence and behavior in that area drastically. I wish I could find it again... I'll look around.

edit - I'm not sure if this was the story.... it sounds a little bit like it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/26/us/tangelo-park-orlando-florida.html

Interesting and heartwarming story.

I think there is no doubt that poverty and racism are both vortexes that are much harder to rise above because they both negatively influence successive generations.

But both are something that can be overcome but it takes real effort from individuals and society at large.

 

[Hoopguru]

First of all, there isn’t some grand conspiracy to keep blacks poorer. Doesn’t matter what color, generally they stay poor and have, white or black. Once again, I urge you to maybe look at certain communities in this country and just maybe you will see there isn’t this systemic racism thing going on. At this point it’s a culture. Do you listen to the hip hop that’s out now? Do you know anything about the culture? Seems not. I think a lot of black communities need to look within instead of blaming white people. There are a lot of poor white people as well stuck as heroin addicts. That’s on them to figure out. You are giving these communities a way out with excuses when the answers are all there if you truly look.

getting stuck in victimhood is not very motivation. Does matter the color, or situation, on cannot use victimization as a way to keep one down and non productive.

 

[Lanny]

Yes, rich peoples sentences are more formal and gramatically correct.

Okay, everybody's gotta find this pretty funny.

 

[crandc]

The New York Times magazine had a truly frightening story about maternal/infant mortality among African-American women. It's not class; well to do Black women (like Serena Williams, a world class athlete & millionaire who nearly died birthing her child) have far higher mortality than poorer white women. Nor is it education; Black women with advanced degrees have higher mortality than white high school graduates. Nor genetic; African and Caribbean Black immigrant women have lower maternal/infant mortality than African-American women matched for income/education. But their daughters have mortality rates similar to African-American women; the advantage is lost in one generation. Interestingly, among white women teens have higher maternal/infant problems than young adult women but among Black women the opposite. The article concludes that the toxic effects of racism cause physical and emotional stress levels that literally kill black mothers and babies. So-called Right to Life groups, needless to say, are silent on the real killing of babies and mothers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/...o-spot-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Of course you could just say the New York Times is fake news and it's just that all Black women are on crack, right?

 

[dviss1]

First of all, there isn’t some grand conspiracy to keep blacks poorer. Doesn’t matter what color, generally they stay poor and have, white or black. Once again, I urge you to maybe look at certain communities in this country and just maybe you will see there isn’t this systemic racism thing going on. At this point it’s a culture. Do you listen to the hip hop that’s out now? Do you know anything about the culture? Seems not. I think a lot of black communities need to look within instead of blaming white people. There are a lot of poor white people as well stuck as heroin addicts. That’s on them to figure out. You are giving these communities a way out with excuses when the answers are all there if you truly look.

Yes. It most certainly is. It always has been. We weren't even allowed to learn how to read...

 

[crandc]

Yes. It most certainly is. It always has been. We weren't even allowed to learn how to read...

Own land, enter universities....

 

[MARIS61]

Most first-time defendants with surly attitudes get stiffer sentences than polite, remorseful repeat offenders. Seems unfair.

Illegal aliens repeatedly have serious charges dismissed or walk with no sentence because they are here illegally. Seems insane.

 

[MARIS61]

Yes. It most certainly is. It always has been. We weren't even allowed to learn how to read...

Neither were the Irish. Or the Italians. Or the Polish. Or women.

And drop the "we" because you're talking about historical figures, not yourself certainly nor anyone else born in your lifetime.

Stop playing the whiny victim, grow up and act like a man.

 

[dviss1]

Neither were the Irish. Or the Italians. Or the Polish. Or women.

And drop the "we" because you're talking about historical figures, not yourself certainly nor anyone else born in your lifetime.

Stop playing the whiny victim, grow up and act like a man.

That's a goddamn lie. And I'm really sick of people equating INDENTURED SERVITUDE to Slavery. GTFO with that bullshit.

 

[MARIS61]

The New York Times magazine had a truly frightening story about maternal/infant mortality among African-American women. It's not class; well to do Black women (like Serena Williams, a world class athlete & millionaire who nearly died birthing her child) have far higher mortality than poorer white women. Nor is it education; Black women with advanced degrees have higher mortality than white high school graduates. Nor genetic; African and Caribbean Black immigrant women have lower maternal/infant mortality than African-American women matched for income/education. But their daughters have mortality rates similar to African-American women; the advantage is lost in one generation. Interestingly, among white women teens have higher maternal/infant problems than young adult women but among Black women the opposite. The article concludes that the toxic effects of racism cause physical and emotional stress levels that literally kill black mothers and babies. So-called Right to Life groups, needless to say, are silent on the real killing of babies and mothers.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/11/...o-spot-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news

Of course you could just say the New York Times is fake news and it's just that all Black women are on crack, right?

NYT is absolutely Fake News, and the author makes ridiculous assumptions of a medical nature that she has no qualifications to make, nor any evidence to support.

Using steroid-abuser Serena Williams as an example certainly doesn't help the argument.

 

[dviss1]

Neither were the Irish. Or the Italians. Or the Polish. Or women.

And drop the "we" because you're talking about historical figures, not yourself certainly nor anyone else born in your lifetime.

Stop playing the whiny victim, grow up and act like a man.

You now what??? FUCK YOU. I was reading FLUENTLY since I was 4!!

I was in TAG, MESA, and all kinds of advanced classes growing up. I was in 5th grade reading at a COLLEGE LEVEL. So STFU.

Me being smart has NEVER held me back. As a matter of fact it's what's gotten me forward.

YOU WILL NEVER, EVER, in your small corner of the world be able to understand what it's like to be black so stop.

Because regardless of my 140 IQ I'm still am thought of as unintelligent, violent, and presumed GUILTY.

 

[dviss1]

NYT is absolutely Fake News, and the author makes ridiculous assumptions of a medical nature that she has no qualifications to make, nor any evidence to support.

Using steroid-abuser Serena Williams as an example certainly doesn't help the argument.

Hater. True hate.

 

[MARIS61]

That's a goddamn lie. And I'm really sick of people equating INDENTURED SERVITUDE to Slavery. GTFO with that bullshit.

You're a free man in the most free country in the world, and you're doing pretty well for yourself.

So GTFO with that "poor me everybody picks on me" routine.

Put all of that negative energy toward building something positive for your son and yourself and live the American Dream.

Or wallow in your wasteful and unearned self-pity and ruin any chance your son has for a happy and positive life.

 

[MARIS61]

You now what??? FUCK YOU. I was reading FLUENTLY since I was 4!!

I was in TAG, MESA, and all kinds of advanced classes growing up. I was in 5th grade reading at a COLLEGE LEVEL. So STFU.

Me being smart has NEVER held me back. As a matter of fact it's what's gotten me forward.

YOU WILL NEVER, EVER, in your small corner of the world be able to understand what it's like to be black so stop.

Because regardless of my 140 IQ I'm still am thought of as unintelligent, violent, and presumed GUILTY.

Wow, so you were lying about all this being held back because of your race shit.

My boys are now 37 and 38 years old. Both were in TAG and Odyssey of The Mind. Both have IQ's in the 160's. It's as if you were all treated as equals despite your ridiculous claims of victimhood.

You're the only person who looks down on you because of your race. It's a mental thing that can destroy you. Get help.

 

[MARIS61]

Hater. True hate.

I dislike cheaters, yes, but I do not hate anyone.

I believe strongly in striving for victory through fair competitiveness, hence my Avatar of Baseball's still-reigning record-holder for "Most Home Runs in a season without the use of performance-enhancing drugs".

 

[MarAzul]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile...qual-sentences-for-blacks-and-whites.amp.html

Really a poor article, using stats only to make a one way point with nothing but racism to blame which is the agenda.
But in the larger picture, why should I or any other logical person care about the possible inequities between one race of
12% of the total of all. When the real issue is why any of them, regardless of race are committing the crimes? Fix the reason for or prevent the crime, and all is equal and the world is a better place. No need to worry of why for the minutia.