what type of player would you rather have? religious/screwup

[Rastapopoulos]

When an athlete makes a big play, they get the applause of the crowd. Most Christians recognize that anything they achieve is only possible because of the talents and gifts that God gives them. When they point to heaven or make statements thanking God, they're simply being true to their faith by showing that they recognize the source of their achievements.

But that's redundant, right? Because everything that happens happens because of God. It's also a bit self-centered. Do they point to the sky when the opposing team scores? They should, if they're consistent. Otherwise (as Christian philosopher Immanuel Kant pointed out long ago) they're questioning God's will. If God loves them, everything that happens is the best possible thing that could happen. Including them being paralyzed in career-ending accidents, say. The fact that most athletes don't acknowledge this shows that they are poor theologians. That's what we're all complaining about really.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Note that's do, not say.

If one does not publicly acknowledge the place of God in one's life, then one is keeping credit for oneself rather than giving the glory to the One to whom it belongs.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

That's a very poor comparison, and you know it.

It wasn't my comparison. But still - enlighten me.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

But that's redundant, right? Because everything that happens happens because of God. It's also a bit self-centered. Do they point to the sky when the opposing team scores? They should, if they're consistent. Otherwise (as Christian philosopher Immanuel Kant pointed out long ago) they're questioning God's will. If God loves them, everything that happens is the best possible thing that could happen. Including them being paralyzed in career-ending accidents, say. The fact that most athletes don't acknowledge this shows that they are poor theologians. That's what we're all complaining about really.

The bolded section is the portion that is actually poor theology.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

If one does not publicly acknowledge the place of God in one's life, then one is keeping credit for oneself rather than giving the glory to the One to whom it belongs.

You think God really cares? Isn't that a bit self-centered? Either that or it paints a picture of a God who created little beings just to brownnose him, and I think that's incredibly insulting to God.

Besides, God knows what you're thinking, so just think it.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

The bolded section is the portion that is actually poor theology.

You're good at pronouncements, not so hot at arguments.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

It wasn't my comparison. But still - enlighten me.

Obviously, it's silly that I would even need to detail this, but despite the fact that you're obviously just being contrarian, I'm willing to oblige.

People are born with genitals--people choose their religion.

With extremely rare exception, everyone has genitals. Not everyone is religious.

Those with genitals cannot help those without gentials to procure genitals through discussion thereof.

Possession of genitals does not have an impact on one's eternal destination.

I could go much further, but there is clearly no need.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

You're good at pronouncements, not so hot at arguments.

The notion that all events that occur are the best possible outcome presupposes that God is divinely orchestrating every event. This is not a Biblical concept. The Bible indicates that "God works all things for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose"--this does not mean that every event in a believer's life is the best possible, just that God uses all events for our benefit. There is a difference, and I'm certain that you are aware of this.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Obviously, it's silly that I would even need to detail this, but despite the fact that you're obviously just being contrarian, I'm willing to oblige.

People are born with genitals--people choose their religion.

With extremely rare exception, everyone has genitals. Not everyone is religious.

Those with genitals cannot help those without gentials to procure genitals through discussion thereof.

Possession of genitals does not have an impact on one's eternal destination.

I could go much further, but there is clearly no need.

Thank you!

Now, let's recap: oldmangrouch's (humorously intended) comparison was between one's religion and one's genitals, with the point being to make an argument by analogy:

Treat your religion like your genitalia. Cherish them, but don't shove them in somebody's face without an invitation!

Sound advice! Now, you're criticizing this argument by pointing out disanalogies between religions and genitals. But of course there are plenty of differences - otherwise it would be a very dull analogy ("religions are like religions"). You have to show a relevant difference, such that it makes sense to conclude that you shouldn't shove your genitals in someone's face, but you can shove your religion. I don't think you've done that. In fact, a couple of them seem to me to suggest that you have more right to "publicly acknowledge" your genitals than your religion. After all, if you really DO choose your religion, then it's your fault you have it, so it seems more reasonable to ask you to keep it to yourself. Whereas, if you can't help having genitals, then it seems unreasonable to ask you to hide them. After all, everybody's got 'em - what's the problem?

As for the "eternal destination" - you don't know that possession of a religion has any impact on it. Even if God exists, it's easier to argue that a loving God shouldn't care than that he should.

 

[The Sebastian Express]

There's nothing wrong with a religious player thanking God. They're not going, "I'd like to thank God for allowing me to make that shot, giving me the skill to make such a shot, AND BY THE WAY YOU HEATHENS AT HOME BETTER GET BAPTIZED OR YOU ARE GOING TO HELL". They're just thanking God. As much as I dislike Tebow because of how much the columnists and media folk get all over his jock, I have to respect him for his upcoming anti-abortion ad that will air during the superbowl. That takes some guts from today's sportsfolks who are taught to value endorsements over standing up for what they believe is right.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

The notion that all events that occur are the best possible outcome presupposes that God is divinely orchestrating every event.

Do you believe that God created the universe? (God as Creator.)
Do you believe that, before he/she/it did so, God knew everything that would happen at every point in the history of that universe? (God is omniscient.)
Do you believe that God loves all his creations and made the universe that was the best of all possible universes? (The alternative would seem to be that God plays favourites and to deny that God is all-loving.)

If the answer to all is "yes", then you're saying that God made something in its entirety with full knowledge of everything that would ever happen in it. So in what sense is he not responsible for everything that happens? And if you would be worse off (overall, including in your eternal life) in this universe than in an alternative one, in what sense does God love you (equally with others for whom this is not true)?

See, you're making the following common religious assumptions: that your version of the religion
(a) makes sense
(b) is the only version of that religion that does
(c) is one that everybody else really knows makes sense, and is just being willfully contrary if they ever act as if it doesn't.

I dispute all three.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

As much as I dislike Tebow because of how much the columnists and media folk get all over his jock, I have to respect him for his upcoming anti-abortion ad that will air during the superbowl. That takes some guts from today's sportsfolks who are taught to value endorsements over standing up for what they believe is right.

So, presumably you have to respect suicide bombers even more. After all, they're giving up their lives for what they believe is right, not just possible endorsements.

 

[noknobs]

Sorry, but your poll lacks crucial data.

Your avatar lacks crucial clothing.

Possession of genitals does not have an impact on one's eternal destination.

Neither does your chosen religion, quite frankly..

And maybe I worship my junk as a diety. It would make just as much sense as every other religion.


But on topic, sure I roll my eyes when a player thanks God after a win, and sure it sucks when your team is called the Jailblazers, but for the most part team success is all I really care about. However, I draw the line right around Michael Vick. Animal and child abuse are two things (not the only things) I can't tolerate, and I'd never want people representing my team or city who do things like that.

 

[The Sebastian Express]

So, presumably you have to respect suicide bombers even more. After all, they're giving up their lives for what they believe is right, not just possible endorsements.

No, because they're killing people. Tim Tebow, and all these other athletes (or most people) who mention God, isn't killing people. God is very much against murder so it would not be for God at all, but rather some distorted vision that they're preaching.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

A thread gone haywire.

If the players bring the same game on the court and one praises God for his talent and the other is a miscreant, I'll take the Godly player. If for no other reason, there is a tendency to be better grounded.

 

[Nikolokolus]

I prefer the fallen from grace "I'll ask for forgiveness in the morning" type religious players. I want my sports idols to be human and utterly fallible -- and total hypocrites

 

[MARIS61]

That's no choice.

In my experience they are one and the same.

 

[STOMP]

That's no choice.

In my experience they are one and the same.

both types often have a watershed moment when the whole world realizes that they're human

then again there are plenty of examples of athletes who run the gamut from extremely religious to apparently atheists types of who seem to get along just fine in life. Go figure...

STOMP

 

[KingSpeed]

I personally do not like to see religion mixed with sports/schools/government. I can appreciate someone right to believe in whatever religion they want to, I would just assume that it stay private. I do not understand why someone's beliefs have to be shared with the world. That being said, I do not judge people who feel strongly about their religion. that is their choice.

Part of most religions IS about sharing it with the world. Spreading the message.

 

[KingSpeed]

Line from LAUGHING WILD by Christopher Durang:

"But I remember when everybody won Tonys for Dreamgirls, and they all got up there thanking God for letting them win this award, and I was thinking to myself: God is silent on the holocaust, but he involves himself in the Tony Awards? It doesn't seem very likely."

 

[the ob]

Part of most religions IS about sharing it with the world. Spreading the message.

some might call this recruiting.

 

[ABM]

I had never seen this. Personally, I don't care much for Griffin's brand of comedy. Say, wasn't she banned from CNN for saying the f-word live?

[video=youtube;re-8MeEBUJ8]

 

[STOMP]

just for perspective on her comments it probably warrants pointing out that Kathy Griffin is Jewish. I don't find her particularly funny

There's nothing wrong with a religious player thanking God. They're not going, "I'd like to thank God for allowing me to make that shot, giving me the skill to make such a shot, AND BY THE WAY YOU HEATHENS AT HOME BETTER GET BAPTIZED OR YOU ARE GOING TO HELL". They're just thanking God.

fully with you so far

As much as I dislike Tebow because of how much the columnists and media folk get all over his jock, I have to respect him for his upcoming anti-abortion ad that will air during the superbowl. That takes some guts from today's sportsfolks who are taught to value endorsements over standing up for what they believe is right.

him doing an anti-abortion ad is anything but a show of guts. What is he risking? Dude is thought of as a marginal prospect in the pros... 2nd-4th rounder. Sure it will turn off a percentage of NFL fans, but much more importantly endear himself to a vocal subset of fans from the religious right. If anything it's a good career move as he's likely nearing the end of his time on the star stage. Next year he'll be on somebody's special teams unit maybe trying to learn a new position and the spotlight will be largely gone.

This commercial is a good career move for him as he seems to be angling to follow in his dad's footsteps post football

STOMP

 

[BBert]

In general I enjoy and give thanks for religious screwups, for the entertainment value. Thankfully, American society has no shortage of those hypocritical fools. As a teammate, I'd prefer not to be subjected to other people shoving their religious junk in my face. As a fan though, it is much easier to put up with the players who think God chose them above all others in a game of basketball (while simultaneously, for example, crushing tens of thousands of Haitians in an eartquake), than to put up with the media feeding frenzy when some idiot athlete cheats on his wife or doesn't pay his hooker or drives his car too fast or forgets to take his gun out of his 'man purse.' I guess it mostly depends on the level of idiocy/criminality by each party.

 

[BenDavis503]

Team Jesus by far.

 

[Minstrel]

I'd rather have a religious screw-up. Someone who wants to convert us all to Jesusism while consistently getting busted for cocaine and carrying guns into inappropriate venues. And if he also scored 30 PPG, averaged 10 assists per game and played some defense, he'd be my perfect player.

 

[crandc]

him doing an anti-abortion ad is anything but a show of guts. What is he risking? Dude is thought of as a marginal prospect in the pros... 2nd-4th rounder. Sure it will turn off a percentage of NFL fans, but much more importantly endear himself to a vocal subset of fans from the religious right. If anything it's a good career move as he's likely nearing the end of his time on the star stage. Next year he'll be on somebody's special teams unit maybe trying to learn a new position and the spotlight will be largely gone.

This commercial is a good career move for him as he seems to be angling to follow in his dad's footsteps post football

STOMP

Agree. Show of guts? He's just been backed by a $150-million organization! Real guts? Incidentally, abortion was and is illegal in the Phillipines, so the veracity of the story has been questioned.

CBS, incidentally, showed "guts" by refusing a Super Bowl ad by the United Church of Christ because they said they welcome everyone, and among others depicted a same sex couple holding hands. They rejected an ad by moveon.org because they don't accept advocacy ads - unless they "advocate" for forcing women to have children against our will! They this year rejected a humorous ad for a gay dating site (two men at a party have their hands brush in a bowl of potato chips!) because it is "too controversial". But gay hating organizations are not too controversial.

A man saying women must be forced to have children against our will and using his platform as an athlete to promote this bigotry is not showing guts, he's a bully.