What's a teacher make?

[mook]

The quality of our teachers definitely has an impact on the life time earnings of all of our children:

A teacher one standard deviation above the mean effectiveness annually generates marginal gains of over $400,000 in present value of student future earnings with a class size of 20 and proportionately higher with larger class sizes. Alternatively, replacing the bottom 5–8 percent of teachers with average teachers could move the U.S. near the top of international math and science rankings with a present value of $100 trillion.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...4c688e2feb65737ec98e65e2bbcbc3bd&searchtype=a

I bring this up because so many focus on what a teacher gets paid vs how many hours a teacher works. I think it's a lousy way to evaluate their pay, just as it'd be ludicrous to evaluate maxiep's pay based on the number of hours he works.

Pay should be determined by scarcity and value:
How many people are elite quality teachers?
What are the economic and social benefits to society of hiring these types of teachers?

I'm not a big fan of teachers unions. But I'm also not a big fan of denigrating a profession that's so crucial to our nation's past and future success.

People would never say the things they say about teachers to firefighters or police. It's because people can see a fireman save a child from a burning building, but they can't really see the lifetime value of a quality teacher. In our society, your personal success is always attributed to your own personal merit. It's easy to forget the kind lady 30 years ago who finally got through your thick skull the how to read "See Spot Run" in second grade so you wouldn't fall further behind.

 

[bluefrog]

Because millions and millions of salaried employees put in "overtime" that they aren't compensated for, as you claim teachers do. It is common, but most people don't whine about it as it is part of the job they chose to take.

Salaried employees in the private sector are putting in overtime to make someone money. If they do a good job they get rewarded appropriately. Teachers are putting in overtime to better their students. If they do a good job they get criticized for "whining about their job". You wouldn't last a day in most classrooms

 

[Denny Crane]

The issue really is how the overall sum of education dollars are allocated.

Consider a teacher in one of those overcrowded classrooms of, say, 40 students. We're spending $10K per student, so there's $400K per home room to divvy up.

It makes no sense that we can't afford to pay the teacher $100K leaving $300K to cover the cost of maintaining the building, buying new books each year, administration, janitorial services, lunches, etc.

Even with class size of 20 or 25, there's plenty of money.

The kind of money to entice people who'd be quality teachers. Thing is, you have to be able to weed out (fire) the bad teachers.

 

[MARIS61]

Teachers are well-compensated for their work. If you want someone who is underappreciated, go to a hospice unit and talk to those workers. You don't see videos of them talking about how they are surrounded by death every day yet manage to make peoples' last moments on earth comfortable and ease the burden of survivors.

Teach because you love it. If you get to the point where you bitch about your job, find another one.

Your post is BS.

I know several hospice workers and they are very appreciated and are very aware that they are appreciated. I doubt there's even one in the world who is not appreciated.

As for teachers being "well-compensated", I guess that depends on what you think they're worth.

I feel any teacher is certainly worth far more than someone who makes their living arranging commercial real estate investments.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

Salaried employees in the private sector are putting in overtime to make someone money. If they do a good job they get rewarded appropriately. Teachers are putting in overtime to better their students. If they do a good job they get criticized for "whining about their job". You wouldn't last a day in most classrooms

in the private sector, if someone does a good job, they could get fired.

if a teacher does a bad job, its hard to fire them...impossible almost once they get tenured.

 

[MARIS61]

Wow. He's awfully self-congratulatory. I wonder if I made a video patting myself on the back for all the jobs I helped create, all the retirement packages I helped increase, all the neighborhoods I helped improve by investing in them and all the knowledge of economics I passed on to graduate students so they could do the same, if I could say how great I am, too?

A more honest view would be for you to show gratitude for the brilliant teachers who made all that possible by teaching you.

 

[Sug]

in the private sector, if someone does a good job, they could get fired.

if a teacher does a bad job, its hard to fire them...impossible almost once they get tenured.

It is not hard to fire a teacher, in fact it is the same process as the private sector. I have worked in both so I understand how it works, unlike a few million ignorant people that seem to think you cannot fire a teacher. First off there really is no such thing as tenure in a public school. The only thing your "tenure" impacts is how you are evaluated, and the number of times you are evaluated by an administrator. Now when it comes to layoffs, yes the number of years you have been teaching plays a role. The number of years that you have been teaching never plays a role in the termination process, NEVER.

I would also like to point out that teachers don't just show up at schools and walk into classrooms as they please to work with students. Believe it or not there is a process, one which includes an education, testing, and even a student teaching experience. So basically before you are ever in a classroom on your own, you have been supervised heavily for about 16 months. Now that is only the start, because then you actually have to get a job which is not easy to do. As many of you appear to believe you cannot just be some drunken hobo who wanders in to the main office smelling of meth asking for a room key. There is an actual process for applying for the job, a license you must obtain via testing, and a job interview with multiple individuals that have the responsibility to make hiring decisions.

After getting the job it is customary to have a three year probationary period in which you are assigned a mentor & administrator who oversee your progress as an educator. You are notified every March as to whether or not you will be back teaching the following school year. Within those first months of school you are observed three times, have mandatory weekly meetings with all the new teachers and administration, and work with your mentor teacher on lesson planning and classroom management. In addition to those supports you are also on a professional learning team working on strategies, etc.

There is not a lot of time as a new teacher to not be working, in fact it is a very difficult profession. I have owned and operated a small business and I can tell you that it was simple compared to teaching. You have anywhere from 150-180 different students at the high school level, and they are all different individuals with a variety of strengths, weaknesses, home situations, etc. I have worked desk jobs at large companies where there is mind numbing receptiveness, but teaching offers a variety of opportunities for constant change. I love working with people and doing a lot of different things, this is why I love teaching. Some people hate change and people, they should stay away from teaching.

If you have never done it, then you simply don't know what it is like. You are evaluated everyday by your students, they are living breathing humans who have wonderfully intelligent minds. They know who is a good teacher, and who sucks. They tell me all the time who they hate and why. There are some things teachers do that I will never understand, but the funny thing is this. Teachers are a lot like bosses or managers, some you love and some you hate. This is a good thing I think, because it truly prepares you for life. Also there are people working in both the private and public sector that are overpaid and lazy. Teaching has it's share, so what? The highest paid people in our society are sometimes the worst at their jobs. Look at the financial sector, people who lost trillions are getting bonuses in the billions. I just laugh at the attitudes of so many of you though, because you spend so much time pissing and bemoaning others.

 

[porkchopexpress]

We've already gone over all of this in the other thread.

Me: Teachers don't just work 7-3.
Response #1: Are you hourly or salary? Only lazy fucks thing you get compensated based on hours worked.
Me: Salary. But no one assumes and no one accuses me of working 8 or less hours a day.
Response #2: Well after a few years teachers don't even have to put in that extra time. They, if smart, get efficient and are in an out in 8 hours.
Me: So grading papers, meeting with parents, disciplining kids all goes away with "efficiency"?

Me: Teachers spend hundreds of dollars out of pocket each year on school supplies and class projects.
Response #1: Well I have to buy my own briefcase
Me: Me too, but I don't have to buy my own pens, paper, ink. And if I did, I wouldn't have to buy it for 30 other people. Plus if I need something specific, like an external hard drive, I can expense it.
Response #2: Well having class projects is a choice and it's the teachers fault for choosing to do them (which doesn't really fall in line withe the whole lazy argument).

Argument against: Teacher's are nothing more than glorified baby sitters.
Me: They work harder than people give them credit for.
Response: I didn't do anything in HS and had to relearn everything in college.
Me: That is your fault. By high school classes are segmented by ability/willingness to work harder. By Senior year at Grant I was in AP calculus, Spanish and English that I earned PSU credits and could have been in AP Physics and Government. Yes, I could have taken basic math, science, English and no language but I chose not to. I won't say that my education was better (or even close to) than my wife's, who went to a top private school in Seattle, but I do think I got a damn fine education.

I'm not arguing that nothing should be done about the education system in the US. There is ample opportunity for improvement. Where I, and many others, take offense is the blatant disrespect for teachers. They get called lazy, leeches or worse and all of those are based on false assumptions about the profession. They work hard, harder than many in the private sector yet get way more abuse than any other profession I know of.

 

[porkchopexpress]

in the private sector, if someone does a good job, they could get fired.

if a teacher does a bad job, its hard to fire them...impossible almost once they get tenured.

In the private sector, if someone does a good job, they could get promoted.

If a teacher does a good job, they get an incremental pay increase.

 

[maxiep]

Again, teachers "whine" because you have idiots telling them how they are overpaid or over compensated. If I went to someone who was a salaried worker, and said "you make too much" and then they told me how they actually don't get paid for working at home (after "hours"), do you honestly think I would continue that line or arguing or bring up other people who are in a similar boat and say "see? they don't bitch!"??

No, I'd say "you know, it sucks. and I'm in the wrong for saying you get paid too much/over compensated".

Saying teachers are a problem is what lazy dumb shits do.

I'm a merchant banker. I'm blamed for crashing the financial system. Shouldn't teachers take some grief for poorly prepared graduates? I'm told I'm overpaid. Should I make a video telling everyone who accuses me of those things how stupid they are and that they should appreciate what I do?

 

[maxiep]

Just curious, what are your degrees in, and how do they relate to your job?

You didn't ask me, but I'll answer anyway. I double majored in International Relations and Romance Languages and Literature and an undergraduate. After college, I got a job in commerical real estate finance. The Venn diagram of my majors and my career not only don't touch, they aren't even on the same page.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

In the private sector, if someone does a good job, they could get promoted.

If a teacher does a good job, they get an incremental pay increase.

I would be down for higher teacher pay if they had performance based evaluation, no tenure, no job security and if they had to watch their backs like everyone else.


X

 

[chris_in_pdx]

I'm a merchant banker. I'm blamed for crashing the financial system. Shouldn't teachers take some grief for poorly prepared graduates? I'm told I'm overpaid. Should I make a video telling everyone who accuses me of those things how stupid they are and that they should appreciate what I do?

As a merchant banker, you are employed at the whims and graces of your company and stockholders. They know the economy is not your fault, so you can pretty much take the criticism of people and 86 it, since they don't pay your salary.

A teacher who works for public school system is at the whim of political blowhards who get a mob mentality, and suddenly the criticism of the teaching profession becomes a bit more threatening since politicians control the government budgets, which teachers are paid from.

Your comparison is completely ridiculous.

 

[maxiep]

It is not hard to fire a teacher, in fact it is the same process as the private sector. I have worked in both so I understand how it works, unlike a few million ignorant people that seem to think you cannot fire a teacher. First off there really is no such thing as tenure in a public school. The only thing your "tenure" impacts is how you are evaluated, and the number of times you are evaluated by an administrator. Now when it comes to layoffs, yes the number of years you have been teaching plays a role. The number of years that you have been teaching never plays a role in the termination process, NEVER.

I would also like to point out that teachers don't just show up at schools and walk into classrooms as they please to work with students. Believe it or not there is a process, one which includes an education, testing, and even a student teaching experience. So basically before you are ever in a classroom on your own, you have been supervised heavily for about 16 months. Now that is only the start, because then you actually have to get a job which is not easy to do. As many of you appear to believe you cannot just be some drunken hobo who wanders in to the main office smelling of meth asking for a room key. There is an actual process for applying for the job, a license you must obtain via testing, and a job interview with multiple individuals that have the responsibility to make hiring decisions.

After getting the job it is customary to have a three year probationary period in which you are assigned a mentor & administrator who oversee your progress as an educator. You are notified every March as to whether or not you will be back teaching the following school year. Within those first months of school you are observed three times, have mandatory weekly meetings with all the new teachers and administration, and work with your mentor teacher on lesson planning and classroom management. In addition to those supports you are also on a professional learning team working on strategies, etc.

There is not a lot of time as a new teacher to not be working, in fact it is a very difficult profession. I have owned and operated a small business and I can tell you that it was simple compared to teaching. You have anywhere from 150-180 different students at the high school level, and they are all different individuals with a variety of strengths, weaknesses, home situations, etc. I have worked desk jobs at large companies where there is mind numbing receptiveness, but teaching offers a variety of opportunities for constant change. I love working with people and doing a lot of different things, this is why I love teaching. Some people hate change and people, they should stay away from teaching.

If you have never done it, then you simply don't know what it is like. You are evaluated everyday by your students, they are living breathing humans who have wonderfully intelligent minds. They know who is a good teacher, and who sucks. They tell me all the time who they hate and why. There are some things teachers do that I will never understand, but the funny thing is this. Teachers are a lot like bosses or managers, some you love and some you hate. This is a good thing I think, because it truly prepares you for life. Also there are people working in both the private and public sector that are overpaid and lazy. Teaching has it's share, so what? The highest paid people in our society are sometimes the worst at their jobs. Look at the financial sector, people who lost trillions are getting bonuses in the billions. I just laugh at the attitudes of so many of you though, because you spend so much time pissing and bemoaning others.

Seriously, you think that winnowing process is difficult? I assure you, compared to most private sector jobs, it's not.

 

[maxiep]

In the private sector, if someone does a good job, they could get promoted.

If a teacher shows up, they get an incremental pay increase.

Fixed.

 

[maxiep]

I would be down for higher teacher pay if they had performance based evaluation, no tenure, no job security and if they had to watch their backs like everyone else.


X

This.

 

[Sug]

I'm a merchant banker. I'm blamed for crashing the financial system. Shouldn't teachers take some grief for poorly prepared graduates? I'm told I'm overpaid. Should I make a video telling everyone who accuses me of those things how stupid they are and that they should appreciate what I do?

I don't know if you were responsible for the crashing of the financial system, I am going to assume probably not. BUT, there are people from your industry are on TV everyday telling us how great they are, and how important they are. It is one of the top lobbied industries in the US , and during the meltdown there was no profession out there defending itself more than the banks. If you are not sure about this, go turn on the cable news channels and find the station with education news and 24 hour programming that has people from education going on and on for hours and hours.

 

[Sug]

Seriously, you think that winnowing process is difficult? I assure you, compared to most private sector jobs, it's not.

No in the private sector, if you know someone you get the job.

 

[chris_in_pdx]

Seriously, you think that winnowing process is difficult? I assure you, compared to most private sector jobs, it's not.

I am trying to understand what this sentance has in it that's anything resembling a response to Sug's 5-Paragraph attempt at educating people about the teaching profession.

 

[maxiep]

As a merchant banker, you are employed at the whims and graces of your company and stockholders. They know the economy is not your fault, so you can pretty much take the criticism of people and 86 it, since they don't pay your salary.

A teacher who works for public school system is at the whim of political blowhards who get a mob mentality, and suddenly the criticism of the teaching profession becomes a bit more threatening since politicians control the government budgets, which teachers are paid from.

Your comparison is completely ridiculous.

LOL. You really think our fund investors accept losses by saying "it's a bad economy" and then blow them off?

 

[maxiep]

I don't know if you were responsible for the crashing of the financial system, I am going to assume probably not. BUT, there are people from your industry are on TV everyday telling us how great they are, and how important they are. It is one of the top lobbied industries in the US , and during the meltdown there was no profession out there defending itself more than the banks. If you are not sure about this, go turn on the cable news channels and find the station with education news and 24 hour programming that has people from education going on and on for hours and hours.

Did you see any of us picketing the US or a state capitol building or not showing up to work because we felt the government was treating us unfairly?

 

[chris_in_pdx]

Fixed.

You have ABSOLUTELY no quantifiable data to back up your biased claim, other than a global hatred of government employees whom you suspect have no accountability. Sug attempted to describe to you what it took to be a teacher and to stay being a teacher, and you flushed that information down the rathole of your closed mind.

 

[Sug]

LOL. You really think our fund investors accept losses by saying "it's a bad economy" and then blow them off?

I think they sell the bad assets at a loss and move on. Which is kinda like blowing it off in order to move on to a better investment, am I wrong?

 

[Sug]

Did you see any of us picketing the US or a state capitol building or not showing up to work because we felt the government was treating us unfairly?

Did you see me or the majority of teachers in the US? Just curious.

 

[maxiep]

I am trying to understand what this sentance has in it that's anything resembling a response to Sug's 5-Paragraph attempt at educating people about the teaching profession.

First, try harder.

In case you can't figure it out after thinking further, I'll state it simply: Sug tried to show how "difficult" it was to become a teacher. Comparatively, it's a cake walk. That was my point.

 

[chris_in_pdx]

LOL. You really think our fund investors accept losses by saying "it's a bad economy" and then blow them off?

I think that the fund investors aren't concerned whether a peon like you, a cog in the machine, has a job or not, or how much you get paid. They take out their anger at the CEOs making the billions. It's the CEO trickling that shitstorm downhill that you need to be concerned about, but as long as he's still making his billions, he could give a rip, either.

Since you have no data, proof, or anything other than your personal biases that think that Teachers are overpaid and coddled, but you do have a vote and can call up your governmental representative and piss and whine about the glorified babysitters that you think should be fired, you are a little more dangerous to them than the "fund investors" are to you.

 

[Sug]

First, try harder.

In case you can't figure it out after thinking further, I'll state it simply: Sug tried to show how "difficult" it was to become a teacher. Comparatively, it's a cake walk. That was my point.

That is such bullshit, if I walked away from teaching today I could have five jobs paying twice as much in companies simply because I know people that are at high level positions. In teaching, you cannot do that. You have to have the credentials which take time and money to obtain. Out of college I could have had a 200k a year gig in LA because my friend wanted me to come work with him. You are being ignorant again. Getting a job in teaching is not easy, it is one of the most difficult professions to obtain a position in.

 

[chris_in_pdx]

First, try harder.

In case you can't figure it out after thinking further, I'll state it simply: Sug tried to show how "difficult" it was to become a teacher. Comparatively, it's a cake walk. That was my point.

Once again, no data, just a biased opinion, which is like most of your off topic posts.

 

[maxiep]

The larger issue is the decline in opinions of teachers and the teaching profession as a whole. It used to be among the most respected of professions. However, after years of pouring more money into a system that hasn't produced improved results and watching the NEA and teachers unions put teachers and administrators over students time after time, the goodwill has been destroyed.

It's brand destruction bigger than Schlitz, which used to be considered the premium beer brand in the world.

 

[Sug]

The larger issue is the decline in opinions of teachers and the teaching profession as a whole. It used to be among the most respected of professions. However, after years of pouring more money into a system that hasn't produced improved results and watching the NEA and teachers unions put teachers and administrators over students time after time, the goodwill has been destroyed.

It's brand destruction bigger than Schlitz, which used to be considered the premium beer brand in the world.

It still is, my students love me. The majority of people love their teachers, and respect them. There is a vocal minority of assholes who don't.