When have you been less excited for the start of a Blazers season?

[kjironman1]

The thing I see is If Dame at his best with reasonable role players can only keep this team as a bottom playoff team then Grant certainly won’t be able to hold them out of the lottery.

 

[Samuel]

IMO Simons isn’t going anywhere. They might keep Ayton also depending on what he wants and what he thinks his next contract should be? Grant might be gone at the deadline. Seems a perfect plug and play guy for a team dealing with injuries.

I have no clue on those guys, but I think folks are conflating 'they aren't unloading veterans' with 'they actually want to compete'. There's a massive grey middle--and I say that as someone who thinks it would be useful if they had made more trade(s) this summer.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The thing I see is If Dame at his best with reasonable role players can only keep this team as a bottom playoff team then Grant certainly won’t be able to hold them out of the lottery.

Being "in" the lottery isn't enough. We don't have enough talent. We need to be as high in the lottery as possible for the next couple years.

 

[Phatguysrule]

IMO Simons isn’t going anywhere.

This is a big problem. This will almost certainly keep us from reaching contender status (unless he changes as a player, which is incredibly unlikely).

Keeping Grant for that long will be a huge mistake unless we get a top five pick (in a quality draft) out of him.

*Edit* to clarify, I think it is pretty much impossible for us to get a top 5 pic out of Grant. He needs to be traded immediately for the best possible youth/draft package we can get.

 

[Hoopguru]

This is a big problem. This will almost certainly keep us from reaching contender status (unless he changes as a player, which is incredibly unlikely).

Keeping Grant for that long will be a huge mistake unless we get a top five pick (in a quality draft) out of him.

PGR - as much as I would love a top five pick for Grant, I'm not sure that feasible unless we take back poison. Hope Im wrong....

 

[kjironman1]

This is a big problem. This will almost certainly keep us from reaching contender status (unless he changes as a player, which is incredibly unlikely).

Keeping Grant for that long will be a huge mistake unless we get a top five pick (in a quality draft) out of him.

I don't see either of those players keeping this team out of the lottery? This team will be very close to the bottom. Makes no difference if you win 20 games instead of 18.
And I certainly hope this is the last year they try to lose. Been tanking for 3 years already.

 

[Pinwheel1]

PGR - as much as I would love a top five pick for Grant, I'm not sure that feasible unless we take back poison. Hope Im wrong....

Especially if you want the pick in this next draft. Only a team who thinks they can be a contender would trade for him, and unless they own someone else's pick that ain't happening.

 

[kjironman1]

PGR - as much as I would love a top five pick for Grant, I'm not sure that feasible unless we take back poison. Hope Im wrong....

Top 5 will absolutely never happen. 1st round? Probable. Top 5 is out of the question. Even if they take on a bad player contract. Why would a team do that?

 

[Phatguysrule]

PGR - as much as I would love a top five pick for Grant, I'm not sure that feasible unless we take back poison. Hope Im wrong....

I don't think it's at all possible. Hence, I think he needs to be dealt ASAP. Preferably before playing any games.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I don't see either of those players keeping this team out of the lottery? This team will be very close to the bottom. Makes no difference if you win 20 games instead of 18.
And I certainly hope this is the last year they try to lose. Been tanking for 3 years already.

Once again, being "in the lottery" is not good enough for right now. We need to be high in the lottery. Very high.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

By trading Grant, I can see more minutes for Camara. But he will still get enough time IMO

By trading Ayton, Clingan might pick up a few more minutes, but how many do you think he can handle without getting hurt?

By trading Simons, more minutes for Rupert. Yay?

It's not just the minutes - yeah we may not have bench players that need way more minutes. But its about having Scoot/Sharpe/Camera/Deni/Clingan/etc learning to imitate offense and building their leadership of the team instead of standing in the corner while Simons/Ayton/Grant dominate the ball.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I don't see either of those players keeping this team out of the lottery? This team will be very close to the bottom. Makes no difference if you win 20 games instead of 18.
And I certainly hope this is the last year they try to lose. Been tanking for 3 years already.

It takes 5 to 6 years for a team like us to rebuild through the draft. Unless you get lucky and get LeBron James. Unfortunately that's just the reality of situation. That's what the numbers tell us.

I don't think we have gotten a player of that caliber, so we need to get realistic about the fact that if we actually want to ever compete we need to lose for a few more years. And probably lose big for another year or two.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

The thing I see is If Dame at his best with reasonable role players can only keep this team as a bottom playoff team then Grant certainly won’t be able to hold them out of the lottery.

Well sure the Blazers may be somewhere in the lottery with Grant. But wouldn't it be better to have Grant on a different team, get an asset for him, give our youth those shots, and improve our pick?

I don't see the purpose in holding onto Grant or demanding multiple first round picks for him.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Top 5 will absolutely never happen. 1st round? Probable. Top 5 is out of the question. Even if they take on a bad player contract. Why would a team do that?

Plenty of teams trade away picks then end up high in the lottery. Look at the Houston pick a few months ago - it was #3 sent from Brooklyn, when the Nets acquired Harden they believed they would still have a dynasty at this point and it would be an end of the first round pick, whoops.

Thats why getting a 2029 Lakers pick or something for Grant would be a great haul. Sure there is a chance it could be at the very end of the draft, but theres a chance it could be high in the lottery as well. That is the smart type of gamble a team like the Blazers should take.

 

[Pinwheel1]

It's not just the minutes - yeah we may not have bench players that need way more minutes. But its about having Scoot/Sharpe/Camera/Deni/Clingan/etc learning to imitate offense and building their leadership of the team instead of standing in the corner while Simons/Ayton/Grant dominate the ball.

If this was true, and I have watched plenty of film that disputes it, then that is a coaching problem not a player problem.
Seriously do you really think Ayton dominates the ball?

 

[Phatguysrule]

If this was true, and I have watched plenty of film that disputes it, then that is a coaching problem not a player problem.
Seriously do you really think Ayton dominates the ball?

Well, when we get a new coach and give him a couple years to get caught up we can stop worrying about it. Until then, we need to proceed with what we know, in my opinion.

Unfortunately by then Scoot, Sharpe, and our other young guys will probably be good enough that we won't be ABLE to tank anymore. Then we'll be stuck in purgatory again.

We are wasting critical opportunities by keeping Simons and Grant. I think Ayton could be a part of our future. Part of a contending team, built around another two or three drafts. So I'm not necessarily set on trading him right now. But I've seen enough of both Simons and Grant to know they aren't a part of that picture.

 

[kjironman1]

Once again, being "in the lottery" is not good enough for right now. We need to be high in the lottery. Very high.

Lottery team is a lottery team. Saying high lottery is what? Top 7-8? They been there for 3 years? They will be in the top 7 again with or without Grant and Simons.

 

[kjironman1]

It takes 5 to 6 years for a team like us to rebuild through the draft. Unless you get lucky and get LeBron James. Unfortunately that's just the reality of situation. That's what the numbers tell us.

I don't think we have gotten a player of that caliber, so we need to get realistic about the fact that if we actually want to ever compete we need to lose for a few more years. And probably lose big for another year or two.

Well you got your wish I guess. This is year 4 already.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Lottery team is a lottery team. Saying high lottery is what? Top 7-8? They been there for 3 years? They will be in the top 7 again with or without Grant and Simons.

Like top 3 or 4. We've been screwing the pooch for the last 3 years. We kind of get a pass on last year because it was such a bad draft, But that makes missing the prior two years (if they aren't at least borderline All Stars eventually) a huge deal.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Well you got your wish I guess. This is year 4 already.

It's not my wish. I wish we still had Dame. This is just what it takes for a team in our situation to compile enough talent to actually compete in the future.

Without doing that you have to luck into a generational talent. We haven't lucked into that. This is not a wish or desire of mine. This is literally what the numbers tell us is required unless something extraordinary happens.

We should not plan for something extraordinary to happen. That would be a mistake.

 

[kjironman1]

Well sure the Blazers may be somewhere in the lottery with Grant. But wouldn't it be better to have Grant on a different team, get an asset for him, give our youth those shots, and improve our pick?

I don't see the purpose in holding onto Grant or demanding multiple first round picks for him.

He only played half a season last year. Really don’t think he will change the course of the team and win a bunch of games but if he did his value would just go up anyway.

 

[Phatguysrule]

He only played half a season last year. Really don’t think he will change the course of the team and win a bunch of games but if he did his value would just go up anyway.

You don't have to win a bunch of games to get a later lotto pick. It only takes a few. And Grant is good enough to win us a few games that we wouldn't otherwise win against bad teams.

 

[kjironman1]

It's not my wish. I wish we still had Dame. This is just what it takes for a team in our situation to compile enough talent to actually compete in the future.

Without doing that you have to luck into a generational talent. We haven't lucked into that. This is not a wish or desire of mine. This is literally what the numbers tell us is required unless something extraordinary happens.

We should not plan for something extraordinary to happen. That would be a mistake.

For all this not planning for something extraordinary and purposely losing it doesn’t seem like the “Numbers” are working. Year 4 coming up.

This needs to be a last year they try to lose. I can live with young players trying to win and losing but management trying to lose is just the wrong way to go about things.

 

[Phatguysrule]

For all this not planning for something extraordinary and purposely losing it doesn’t seem like the “Numbers” are working. Year 4 coming up.

This needs to be a last year they try to lose. I can live with young players trying to win and losing but management trying to lose is just the wrong way to go about things.

Except we haven't done what I suggested. We should have tanked hard the first 3 years if we were going to deal Dame.

We are losing our window of opportunity. Like you say. This is why it is so critical to get rid of guys like Simon's and Grant ASAP.

We are definitely screwing the pooch by keeping those guys. 100%. What we have been doing is not what I suggest that we do. It's not what the numbers suggest we should do.

We need to understand that and change course immediately. And tank extremely hard from the start of the season. Not by sitting players, but by getting rid of those players. Treating them for draft capital or young players who need to develop.

What we have been doing for the last 3 years is planning for something extraordinary to happen. It ain't happening.

 

[kjironman1]

Except we haven't done what I suggested. We should have tanked hard the first 3 years if we were going to deal Dame.

We are losing our window of opportunity. Like you say. This is why it is so critical to get rid of guys like Simon's and Grant ASAP.

We are definitely screwing the pooch by keeping those guys. 100%. What we have been doing is not what I suggest that we do. It's not what the numbers suggest we should do.

We need to understand that and change course immediately. And tank extremely hard from the start of the season. Not by sitting players, but by getting rid of those players. Treating them for draft capital or young players who need to develop.

What we have been doing for the last 3 years is planning for something extraordinary to happen. It ain't happening.

The Blazers got lucky and got the #1 pick and used it for Oden. They got Roy at 7 and traded to get Aldridge.
We all know about injuries but that team was built the exact same way they are building now. Many believe that without the injuries that team would contend.
Even Lillard thinks if Aldridge doesn’t leave the Blazers would have contended.
It doesn’t take 6-7-8 years of tanking to build a good team and it doesn’t take Extraordinary. It just takes a good group and a good coach with an owner willing to spend a bit of money to create a championship.

 

[e_blazer]

What we have been doing for the last 3 years is planning for something extraordinary to happen. It ain't happening. It hasn't happened yet.

FIFY

I still put a pretty fair amount of faith in the development of Sharpe and Scoot. The development of both has been stunted a bit. Last season should have been Sharpe's breakout year, but he missed a major chunk of it with the ab injury that required surgery. That doesn't change the fact that he's an athletic freak who has shown signs of All-Star potential. Scoot was a deer in the headlights last season as he tried to make the leap from G-League to NBA. He also dealt with injuries. To me, the talk of him being a bust is incredibly short sighted. He's got the athletic talent to be a top-tier guard. He just needs off-season work on his game, particularly shooting and finishing, and a chance to gain game experience. If those two develop into All-Stars, what the Blazers have done is form a solid foundation. They added a promising front line piece in Clingan. They will no doubt lose enough games this season to be in position to grab a very good prospect in a deep draft. Flagg would be great, but there are plenty of good picks available.

I have no problem with trading Grant and/or Simons, but it should happen at the point that a good return is offered; not just because message forums are clamoring for it to happen immediately. I have little doubt that they'll be gone by the deadline.

 

[Pinwheel1]

We are definitely screwing the pooch by keeping those guys. 100%. What we have been doing is not what I suggest that we do. It's not what the numbers suggest we should do.

Your strategy has worked a few times for other teams. But it hasn't worked very often. So to say keeping those guys is 100 % wrong is more of a guess than fact. Everyone is entitled to their opinion as to which direction is best, but it's all a crap shoot.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Well sure the Blazers may be somewhere in the lottery with Grant. But wouldn't it be better to have Grant on a different team, get an asset for him, give our youth those shots, and improve our pick?

I don't see the purpose in holding onto Grant or demanding multiple first round picks for him.

Personally, I look at Grant differently Ant and Ayton. Based on age and length of contract. If they were to trade him to the Lakers for say Rui and filler and a pick...I would be OK. I am just not in a hurry to move Ayton and Simons. Certainly not just so we can tank.

 

[Phatguysrule]

The Blazers got lucky and got the #1 pick and used it for Oden. They got Roy at 7 and traded to get Aldridge.
We all know about injuries but that team was built the exact same way they are building now. Many believe that without the injuries that team would contend.
Even Lillard thinks if Aldridge doesn’t leave the Blazers would have contended.
It doesn’t take 6-7-8 years of tanking to build a good team and it doesn’t take Extraordinary. It just takes a good group and a good coach with an owner willing to spend a bit of money to create a championship.

But we all also know that the injury risks were why they got those players in those positions. We never would have gotten Roy if he hadn't had injury concerns. I've also heard rumors that that weighed in on Chicago making the trade with Aldridge.

Except Oden. So just getting the number one pick also isn't a guarant.

So the Blazers had something extraordinary happen and that those players were available when they were picking. I'm saying that we can't count on that happening. And if it does happen, there's probably a reason.

If something extraordinary were to happen and we're just too good with young players to keep losing then that's great. But that's not the case now. So we're just hurting ourselves by keeping older players who have proven they can help us beat bad teams but aren't all star caliber. They are simply hurting our chances at getting a better drafting. It's all about probabilities.

You're right, it might not take 6,7 or 8 years. And that would be great. But we haven't started by getting the best draft picks we can. We've missed out on some great players that we would have had a better chance at drafting if we have lost more. Likely one of the best of all time.

So we've kind of screwed the pooch on our first few years of the tank. Hopefully Scoot and Sharpe turn into All Stars. But we should absolutely not count on that being the case. We aren't going to have the opportunity to tank in a few more years of their develop. We really need to make the most of our opportunity right now, IMO.

 

[wizenheimer]

Seriously do you really think Ayton dominates the ball?

he probably would if he was a decent ball-handler, but he's not. Of course, an Ayton with handles is like an Oden with good knees...fictional characters

but yeah, in his own way, Ayton can dominate the ball. In the last 2 months of last season, in those games that Ayton fans like to point to when he averaged 23 points, he also averaged 19.2 FGA. For perspective, Jokic led all NBA C's last season in FGA with 17.9; Wemby was 2nd at 16.7. Obviously, the runway for Ayton's 'ball hoggishness' was cleared with Simons-Grant-Brogdon sitting. When 2 or 3 of those guys played, Ayton only averaged a shade over 13 FGA