Why I don't think this will work

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KingSpeed said:
One player doesn't make your defense better.
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One player can make your defense better. I think what you mean is that one player doesn't fix the Blazers' bad defense. That's true. But they can continue working to improve it and having a star with excellent defense is a big boost to the cause.
 
KingSpeed said:
That team isn't better than our current team. Looks an awful lot like the current Bulls. How are they doing?
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Better than us, sadly. Our defense gets SO much better in this scenario. Are people really THIS low on Butler? Dude is a legit All-Star and all-NBA defender... he is a good shooter too. We could actually match up defensively and hold our own offensively with a healthy Warriors team when they go small..

Dame - Steph
Butler - Klay
Wes - Iggy
Harkless - Durant
Turner - Green
 
We can throw all the trades we want but it up to Neil to figure out what moves will make us better. We can trade for Bulter for cj but yea on the Defense side it would make us little better but on the offense it a wash. So how many more wins we will get on that trade properly not many. What we need is better role players with the 2nd unit that can come in and sustain while the 1st unit get a rest before they come back in.
 
Plums with his 5th straight double double, Turner looking more like he did in Boston, i'll take this loss and enjoy the progress. Power forward is a problem if Vonleh doesn't keep improving.
 
Trackjack said:
Your not going to see a trade with neither of these guys not right now. But they do need to do something to sign Plum next year though. The people right I would put out there right in a trade it would be Davis, ML,Crabbe. I would take only expiring contracts or draft choices. If Fetus does come back the 2nd unit CJ a player we trade for Aminu and Harkless and Fetus. That front court would great defense unit.
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Fucking milk everywhere!

HAHA man sorry, but your spelling error cracked me up. Fetus does come back. You know. Cause its a fetus. has a hole life ahead of him and all. How can a Fetus retire?
 
Orion Bailey said:
Fucking milk everywhere!

HAHA man sorry, but your spelling error cracked me up. Fetus does come back. You know. Cause its a fetus. has a hole life ahead of him and all. How can a Fetus retire?
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Yea looks like I miss a letter oh well English wasnt my best subject in school. I glade it gave you a laugh I even had to chuckle at that too.
 
Jesus H Christ. This game wasn't lost due to Dame and CJ, it was lost because our bigs couldn't get a defense rebound over and over in the 2nd half, and every time they got a 2nd chance G.S. hit the shot.

I love Plumlee and what he brings, but lets face it, without Davis our bigs just are not good enough defensively. If Leonard, Vonleh and Aminu are your only other bigs on a given night you're gonna struggle in areas like defensive rebounding.

Despite that, a wide open three goes in and we win 4 in a row. Hardly a reason to trade one of your best players.
 
noknobs said:
Jesus H Christ. This game wasn't lost due to Dame and CJ, it was lost because our bigs couldn't get a defense rebound over and over in the 2nd half, and every time they got a 2nd chance G.S. hit the shot.

I love Plumlee and what he brings, but lets face it, without Davis our bigs just are not good enough defensively. If Leonard, Vonleh and Aminu are your only other bigs on a given night you're gonna struggle in areas like defensive rebounding.

Despite that, a wide open three goes in and we win 4 in a row. Hardly a reason to trade one of your best players.
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Its not over just one game. I want to win a title. Having two guards that suck on defense is not gonna get you there. Why not trade cj for a better player that balances the roster?

You should always be open to improving the team.
 
And btw, for every contested shot CJ or Damn took, there was probably the same amount that Aminu and Turner took.

I thought Dame and CJ where actually pretty unselfish tonight. Dame had 8 assists and only took 14 shots, compared to 14 for Plumlee, 17 for Turner, 10 for Aminu, 9 for Harkless and 7 for Crabbe. That sounds to me like they're passing to the guys. CJ was 10-16.
 
JFizzleRaider said:
Its not over just one game. I want to win a title. Having two guards that suck on defense is not gonna get you there. Why not trade cj for a better player that balances the roster?

You should always be open to improving the team.
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Well obviously you should be open to improving the team. There are many ways to do that without breaking up one of the best backcourts in the NBA. We've got a lot of other assets that could be used to get a more defense front court, or wings who are more of threat from 3. It doesn't have to result in bringing in an all-star. People get obsessed with bringing in a big name. The team is still very young, it's not time to blow shit up by trading CJ/Dame, it's time to find complementary pieces that fit the system and fill our needs. And I don't think we're as far off from that as people seem to think.
 
noknobs said:
Well obviously you should be open to improving the team. There are many ways to do that without breaking up one of the best backcourts in the NBA. We've got a lot of other assets that could be used to get a more defense front court, or wings who are more of threat from 3. It doesn't have to result in bringing in an all-star. People get obsessed with bringing in a big name. The team is still very young, it's not time to blow shit up by trading CJ/Dame, it's time to find complementary pieces that fit the system and fill our needs. And I don't think we're as far off from that as people seem to think.
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Exactly. Do that, and if we're still not good enough to condend, then trade one of them.
 
BonesJones said:
Butler's worse offensively, and he wouldn't be able to handle the attention that CJ gets every game. We'd have worse role players and one less shooter. We'd have less assets to fix that problem. That's an awful trade. We need to improve our role players, not trade CJ. Lets stop with this ridiculous crap... I thought we got past the constant trade one of Dame or CJ, and now because we lost by 2 to Golden State, it's starting to ramp up again.
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Butler is probably the primary focus of defenses against the Bulls.

My ideal scenario is CJ as super 6th man and we have a super studly starting SG.
 
More 30 point quarters, more lack of defensive rebounding, more not boxing out by Portland's front court leading to wide open second chance opportunities.
Swapping Butler for CJ doesn't fix this problem.
I can write a two page essay on every game where Lillard/CJ make the right basketball play by passing the ball. Only to have Insert role players name here, make a poor decision.
I must be watching a different game.


Interesting though, outside of his start to the season. Turners been pretty damn good for Portland. Something most on this forum thought was impossible.
 
Derrick Rose was never good at making entry passes to the Bulls' bigs. I can't speak to the Blazers because we don't generally have bigs worth passing inside to. Ed Davis, maybe.

It's a skill that needs to be developed like any.

I'd love to see the Blazers add a guy who can play back to the basket and get easy buckets. It keeps defenses honest when they have to guard the lane and guard the 3pt line. It helps the P&R game to have a guy who can score on the roll part, or step out to hit the pick and pop shot.
 
TBpup said:
I've long been under the belief that the Blazers will not go very far with a Dame/CJ back court the way they play right now. Tonight there were more prime examples of why. Portland made this game close with Curry sitting out but in the end, Dame couldn't even get a shot off in about the last 5 minutes because....Klay Thompson. But that wasn't the reason.

Two prime examples occurred near the middle of the 2nd quarter, both involving Noah Vonleh. In the first, there was a switch out high and Noah promptly took the 6'7", stick figure Livingston right to the rim and waited for a pass....that never came. Instead he watched a number of dribbles and then a contested, step-back jumper that missed.

Just a trip or two later, Vonleh set multiple screens as the Blazer guards ran the weave. Finally there was a mix up and Vonleh rolled to the basket completely free of a defender anywhere near him. Did he get an immediate pass to him for an easy dunk? Yeah, you would think but he didn't even get a look. Instead, it was another contested, missed jumper and Golden State was off to the races.

The same thing happened with Mo' Harkless and Allen Crabbe.
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I agree, but I don't necessarily think it's because Dame/CJ can't work together. The bolded part is the problem - the WAY they play. That falls on the coach. Get a coach who will hold them accountable. Get a coach who will drill it into their heads that they NEED to pass to the interior. I don't think either of them are particularly great at setting up teammates for easy shots, but they both have the ability to make the easy pass to an open teammate - unfortunately the system hasn't been set up for that to be part of our offense, so they aren't even looking for it.

On a tangent - a big reason people feel Dame/CJ can't work is because of their defense. I get it, and agree to an extent. But watching them, there's no reason they can't both be average defenders. They both played good D at times last night - a better coach with a better system would have them working both harder and smarter on that end of the court, which would propel them to average quite easily. Watching CJ and Klay last night I saw CJ roasting Klay, and then mostly holding him in check on defense. Klay is a good defender, but hardly the lock down defender that people make him out to be. And CJ, despite getting behind his man a little too often, isn't nearly the defensive sieve people make him out to be. CJ is twice the player Klay is - CJ is a guy you can build around, Klay is just a really good role player.
 
What's the market for Butler? What are the teams that would trade for him, and what do those trade offers look like. I ask because: never pay more than you need to. CJ might be an overpay, depending on what other offers might be out there. With that in mind: http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=hbdt4nm

Crabbe/Harkless/Noah/POR Pick/CLE Pick for Butler/Rondo

This helps CHI reset with three young players at three different positions, plus two 1st round picks that would allow them to get additional young and CHEAP players. Or they could use the picks in trades. It gets them out from Rondo's contract. And they finally get rid of Butler - whom they've been butting heads with for a while - allowing them to go all-in on a rebuild. If they wanted to ditch Lopez because he doesn't fit with a rebuild, that could easily be accommodated.
 
blue9 said:
What's the market for Butler? What are the teams that would trade for him, and what do those trade offers look like. I ask because: never pay more than you need to. CJ might be an overpay, depending on what other offers might be out there. With that in mind: http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=hbdt4nm
Crabbe/Harkless/Noah/POR Pick/CLE Pick for Butler/Rondo

This helps CHI reset with three young players at three different positions, plus two 1st round picks that would allow them to get additional young and CHEAP players. Or they could use the picks in trades. It gets them out from Rondo's contract. And they finally get rid of Butler - whom they've been butting heads with for a while - allowing them to go all-in on a rebuild. If they wanted to ditch Lopez because he doesn't fit with a rebuild, that could easily be accommodated.
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Somewhere in a Bulls forum someone is asking what the market for CJ is and thinks they can trade Rondo for him.
 
I hope they never trade CJ, even if it means that all of you guys will be miserable because of it.:hcp:
 
what we do have for sure:

a pg/sg combo which can be the most devastating 1-2 combo in the league on any given night
all star level ability in this combo
many many many great WOW plays from both of these guys with some epic games and gamesavers

BUT

they are undersized
they are weak on defense
its daylight between option 2 and 3 if 1+2 are struggling
they have huge contracts
we have tons of $ wrapped up in duplication at other positions with barely anyone putting a claim on any other position outside of plumlee.

TBH im not sure which of Dame n CJ needs to be moved, but it's hard not to see an argument to explore all options at this point. Last year was amazing, but we came from NOWHERE, teams have gameplans for us now...... and we're don't seem to be a Rubix cube to solve.....

I think Dame would net us a better piece, but what that does to the team/community, ugh - i dont wanna know, but - it'd signal a monumental shift in club direction.

and

we need a monumental shift.

it's niggly, but i'd rather roll the dice than sit in that shitty mediocre zone between maybe making 7-8th seed and never getting a pick of any note.
 
Denny Crane said:
Butler is probably the primary focus of defenses against the Bulls.

My ideal scenario is CJ as super 6th man and we have a super studly starting SG.
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You lose all credibility when you say CJ is a sixth man

F*ck outta here Denny

Go watch your bulls
 
I think it was on 620 AM this morning they were talking about the TYPE of offense the Blazers run and how Dame/CJ have to run endlessly in that damn weave just to create a shot. Apparently HoF'er Hubie Brown had brought up that point and someone had asked Stotts about it.....to which not much of a response was given.

So if they run so much on offense, they perhaps are a little more tired and aren't able to give as much on the defensive end.
 
Nikolokolus said:
Good enough for Manu.
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Cj is already better than prime manu GTFO he's as good as prime Tony Parker right now and only getting better

I cant believe people are even considering this as a reasonable for cj

y'all f*ckin up the guy is our best player
 
I feel that CJ gets wrapped up in the "THEY" don't play defense convo way to much. CJ is way better at getting picks or at least a piece of the ball when he's guarding someone. He doesn't get burned anywhere near as bad as Dame does. Just watching CJ gives a different view than most. IMO. Not to say he's great, just nowhere near as bad as Dame.
 
Minstrel said:
When McCollum is in his 30s, and the Blazers have an abundance of talent, we can definitely re-visit that model.
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Manu came off the bench for years, while he was in his prime. I'd still find a way to get him 32+ minutes.
 
chzbrgr said:
Cj is already better than prime manu GTFO he's as good as prime Tony Parker right now and only getting better

I cant believe people are even considering this as a reasonable for cj

y'all f*ckin up the guy is our best player
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No.
 
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