Why I don't think this will work

[Minstrel]

Manu came off the bench for years, while he was in his prime. I'd still find a way to get him 32+ minutes.

In his 30s, though. He only spent a few years of his 20s in the NBA and was a starter at that time. If he had come to the NBA at 21, I don't know how accepting he'd have been about a bench role.

 

[Nikolokolus]

we dont watch the same game then

Manu never averaged 20 ppg in his entire career
Similar assist numbers
Similar rebounding numbers
Similar steals numbers

please enlighten me...

His defense was a big part of his impact. If CJ ever improves defensively and keeps putting up the same stats, then I'd be inclined to agree, but we're not there yet.

 

[Nikolokolus]

In his 30s, though. He only spent a few years of his 20s in the NBA and was a starter at that time. If he had come to the NBA at 21, I don't know how accepting he'd have been about a bench role.

You're right. I doubt CJ would be willing to accept that kind of role at his age. I'm just trying to think outside of the box about how he might stay here and be part of a contender. With Lillard and CJ as the starting duo I doubt they'll every be able to paper over the gap that's created when they are both on the court together.

 

[Minstrel]

You're right. I doubt CJ would be willing to accept that kind of role at his age. I'm just trying to think outside of the box about how he might stay here and be part of a contender. With Lillard and CJ as the starting duo I doubt they'll every be able to paper over the gap that's created when they are both on the court together.

I think the main problem is that the Spurs had sufficient talent that they could afford to stagger Ginobili's minutes so that he was the alpha when Duncan and Parker were on the bench. Right now, the Blazers flounder when either player is on the bench because they need both guys to compete.

If the Blazers added a lot more talent--a superstar and more good role-players--then it could work to move McCollum to a reserve role where he gets as many minutes as possible non-overlapping with Lillard/Superstar.

 

[WillG]

I think it was on 620 AM this morning they were talking about the TYPE of offense the Blazers run and how Dame/CJ have to run endlessly in that damn weave just to create a shot. Apparently HoF'er Hubie Brown had brought up that point and someone had asked Stotts about it.....to which not much of a response was given.

So if they run so much on offense, they perhaps are a little more tired and aren't able to give as much on the defensive end.

Absolutely the same thing I've been face-palming during games over.
Our offense moves our guards and wings instead of the ball. No wonder they're tired!

Cut the weave out entirely, lessens chance of turnovers on bumped handoffs, save that energy for the transition game and Defense.

 

[blue9]

His defense was a big part of his impact. If CJ ever improves defensively and keeps putting up the same stats, then I'd be inclined to agree, but we're not there yet.

I think the Parker comparison is a better one. I never really thought of it until now, but they have some similarities. CJ is better at scoring (better shot, better change of direction), Parker possibly better at passing...but he also had better players to pass to, and a better system to pass within. So, despite the fact that Parker won a Finals MVP, I don't think it's too far fetched to say CJ is as good as, or better than, Parker.

 

[blue9]

Absolutely the same thing I've been face-palming during games over.
Our offense moves our guards and wings instead of the ball. No wonder they're tired!

Cut the weave out entirely, lessens chance of turnovers on bumped handoffs, save that energy for the transition game and Defense.

Drives me crazy - passing moves the ball MUCH quicker than dribbling does. But 90% of our passes keep the ball in the same general area of the floor - a 20' path above the 3-point line. Lots and lots of running but no actual ball movement, so the defense never gets off balance.

 

[WillG]

Drives me crazy - passing moves the ball MUCH quicker than dribbling does. But 90% of our passes keep the ball in the same general area of the floor - a 20' path above the 3-point line. Lots and lots of running but no actual ball movement, so the defense never gets off balance.

Terrys Weave/fluff offense (fittingly in Black & Red) vs NBA defender :

 

[Denny Crane]

You lose all credibility when you say CJ is a sixth man

F*ck outta here Denny

Go watch your bulls

CJ is a starter, but If you believe the back court is too small and too porous on D, you need to pair one with a bigger guard who can play D. As good as the two are, we aren't looking like contenders.

 

[Denny Crane]

You're right. I doubt CJ would be willing to accept that kind of role at his age. I'm just trying to think outside of the box about how he might stay here and be part of a contender. With Lillard and CJ as the starting duo I doubt they'll every be able to paper over the gap that's created when they are both on the court together.

Exactly.

 

[Denny Crane]

I think the main problem is that the Spurs had sufficient talent that they could afford to stagger Ginobili's minutes so that he was the alpha when Duncan and Parker were on the bench. Right now, the Blazers flounder when either player is on the bench because they need both guys to compete.

If the Blazers added a lot more talent--a superstar and more good role-players--then it could work to move McCollum to a reserve role where he gets as many minutes as possible non-overlapping with Lillard/Superstar.

Did they flounder in the games Dame missed?

Before that stretch, we we getting blown out a lot of games.

 

[Minstrel]

Did they flounder in the games Dame missed?

Before that stretch, we we getting blown out a lot of games.

For the season, I've read that the team has a significantly worse point differential when only one of them is on the court, as opposed to them both being on the court.

 

[Denny Crane]

For the season, I've read that the team has a significantly worse point differential when only one of them is on the court, as opposed to them both being on the court.

Did they flounder in the games Dame missed?

That's the question I asked...

 

[Nikolokolus]

Did they flounder in the games Dame missed?

That's the question I asked...

I'm losing track of time. How many games did he miss? I ask because I wonder if it's a large enough sample size to draw any conclusions from (quality of opponent also matters).

 

[Denny Crane]

I'm losing track of time. How many games did he miss? I ask because I wonder if it's a large enough sample size to draw any conclusions from (quality of opponent also matters).

5 games. We went 2-3, lost by 8 to the Warriors on the road. Last time we had played them, with Dame, we lost by 45 there.

 

[Nikolokolus]

5 games. We went 2-3, lost by 8 to the Warriors on the road. Last time we had played them, with Dame, we lost by 45 there.


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And then they lost by 2 at home with him. I don't know if there's anything to be learned there.

Overall they lost to some good teams and beat some bad ones. I do remember thinking that they looked competitive in some of those losses (Toronto in particular), but I'm not sure what else you take from it, if you're looking for some kind of narrative.

 

[TBpup]

And then they lost by 2 at home with him. I don't know if there's anything to be learned there.

Curry was out this last game. That is one fairly large variable.

 

[Denny Crane]

And then they lost by 2 at home with him. I don't know if there's anything to be learned there.

Overall they lost to some good teams and beat some bad ones. I do remember thinking that they looked competitive in some of those losses (Toronto in particular), but I'm not sure what else you take from it, if you're looking for some kind of narrative.

From my POV, the time with him out and a bigger SG alongside CJ, we played much better. It may have been the turning point for the whole season.

Considering we played those games without one of our only two scorers, the team leader, we didn't fall apart. Instead, we played better. We were in the games we lost. We beat teams we were supposed to beat (we were losing those games prior).

Stotts has since inserted a big SG in the lineup (ET), allowing CJ to play the worse of the SG/SF on other teams.

Another observation I have is that CJ seems to be a pretty good defender of PGs. He's smallish to guard SGs every night. He just doesn't get to guard PGs so much.

ET held Klay Thompson to 6-21 shooting last game. That's SOLID. Unfortunately, we had nobody who could stop Durant.

 

[Nikolokolus]

From my POV, the time with him out and a bigger SG alongside CJ, we played much better. It may have been the turning point for the whole season.

Considering we played those games without one of our only two scorers, the team leader, we didn't fall apart. Instead, we played better. We were in the games we lost. We beat teams we were supposed to beat (we were losing those games prior).

Stotts has since inserted a big SG in the lineup (ET), allowing CJ to play the worse of the SG/SF on other teams.

Another observation I have is that CJ seems to be a pretty good defender of PGs. He's smallish to guard SGs every night. He just doesn't get to guard PGs so much.

ET held Klay Thompson to 6-21 shooting last game. That's SOLID. Unfortunately, we had nobody who could stop Durant.

Don't get me wrong, I'm in the camp that thinks we probably have to trade one of them. I'm just saying that sometimes unscouted looks yield surprising results for a short amount of time.

 

[Denny Crane]

Don't get me wrong, I'm in the camp that thinks we probably have to trade one of them. I'm just saying that sometimes unscouted looks yield surprising results for a short amount of time.

I'm pretty sure teams have looked at film of CJ and Crabbe playing together. If it were, say, Layman playing big minutes, there isn't much film to watch.

 

[Minstrel]

Did they flounder in the games Dame missed?

That's the question I asked...

Yeah, I know that's the question you asked, but I was answering a more relevant one, using a much larger sample size than 5 games.

 

[Denny Crane]

Also, I'm not a big fan of trading CJ or Dame. My preference is to have a solid starting SG and to play CJ a ton of minutes off the bench.

As great as CJ is, we really need a scorer off the bench, and he'd still be a huge contributor and worth his contract.

From my years watching the Bulls, they had Ben Gordon who was a smallish SG. He won 6MOY coming off the bench. The Bulls did start him after a few years, but they had him as 6th man for two reasons: they didn't want a midget back court, and they loved his offense added to the 2nd unit. I see CJ in that role, just better than BG. A lot better.

Our 2nd unit has been frequently crushed by other teams. Whether we play CJ or Dame with those 2nd unit guys, either has already played a lot of minutes. A fresh CJ with the 2nd team would make a huge difference.

I see CJ easily getting 32-36 minutes per game, and finishing games. Finishing games is what counts, IMO. Vonleh is a starter...

 

[handiman]

For the season, I've read that the team has a significantly worse point differential when only one of them is on the court, as opposed to them both being on the court.

How much of that corresponds with going to a general bench lineup?

We've seen the team play as good or better during the couple stretches when Dame was out. We haven't seen how the team does with Dame but not CJ (since he became a starter). It's rare for both guys to have a hot game simultaneously. The eye test suggests that one of them is nearly as good as both.

 

[TBpup]

Just another example of why I don't think this works. Even if the Blazers come back in the 2nd half (which they should) this has been an embarrassment. Until a couple of nights ago, Yogi Ferrell's career high was 13 points. He had 17 points with 5 minutes to go in the 1st half.

And again the missed opportunities to start a game. There was a switch and Vonleh (who had 4 of their first 10 points) had pinned 5' 10" Yogi Ferrell under the basket. Did they throw it into him for an easy dunk? Heck no. It's just the mentality and the way they run their offense. They didn't even look at the HUGE mismatch....and Vonleh was scoring when Dame/CJ hadn't even scored yet.

Guess I need to be resigned to that is just how they play.

 

[blue9]

Just another example of why I don't think this works. Even if the Blazers come back in the 2nd half (which they should) this has been an embarrassment. Until a couple of nights ago, Yogi Ferrell's career high was 13 points. He had 17 points with 5 minutes to go in the 1st half.

And again the missed opportunities to start a game. There was a switch and Vonleh (who had 4 of their first 10 points) had pinned 5' 10" Yogi Ferrell under the basket. Did they throw it into him for an easy dunk? Heck no. It's just the mentality and the way they run their offense. They didn't even look at the HUGE mismatch....and Vonleh was scoring when Dame/CJ hadn't even scored yet.

Guess I need to be resigned to that is just how they play.

It is quite sad that neither of our two best players see it. However, they can be taught to see it. A coach that cares about it would have them making that pass.

 

[Strenuus]

lol, the team has been mostly bad all year.

We were "supposed to win this game because it was at home" people say. I never count any game as a win, because this team can't decide when the fuck to play an actual 48 minute game.

 

[Cippy91]

 

[TBpup]

^^^^Okay, it's the lowest % Dame has shot from '3' in his entire NBA career.

I'm not down on Dame.....he is having to carry a lot and this offense is not designed to get easy looks. Dame/CJ take a lot of very tough shots after running around in the weave for seemingly miles. But we are over half a season in and the very poor shooting from '3' continues. Up until a couple of games ago, he was trailing Mo Harkless in 3-pt%. That right there is reason to at least be able to at least question.

 

[dviss1]

Butler is probably the primary focus of defenses against the Bulls.

My ideal scenario is CJ as super 6th man and we have a super studly starting SG.

But that's not ideal for a max player. Also the SSSG would only allow CJ to get Crabbe type minutes. I'd take a SSPF and a solid 3&DSG. Crabbe has 3s (NOTHING else) and no D.

 

[oldfisherman]

While I agree with the OPs premise, and, most of what has been said in this thread, and dream of a great 3 guard rotation. I believe we can make bigger leaps by improving the weakest positions rather than pecking away at improving our strongest.

I'm going to suggest a different approach to improve the team.
Make a list of the positions in order from weakest to strongest.

Q, Which position is our weakest? I would say PF.
Goal, find a way to improve PF until it is no longer the weakest. Then start to work on improving the next weakest position, which is either SF or C. Always work on improving your weakest position.

If we had a quality starting caliber PF that was both our 3rd scoring threat and a good defender, both Dames and CJs game would improve, or at least make life easier for them which should improve their efficiency.