Why is Center our top need?

[Mediocre Man]

Yeah, Gasol was a terrible example for Mags to use. He put up a 16.7 PER as a rookie.

OK, MM--here's something you're going to love. This is the list of 7-footers who played at least 1000 minutes in their rookie years and put up a PER of less than 13. Not a whole lot of world-beaters here. Maybe Leonard can be another Chris Kaman...?

Dear God that is an outstanding list

 

[Mediocre Man]

See this is why you don't do drugs! I stand corrected!

And I am heavily sedated. Maybe I am smarter this way?

 

[Reep]

Dear God that is an outstanding list

Chandler and Eaton ended up pretty good. I'm not sure you can really compare everyone on that list. A third of those guys were bad because they had no motivation (Kandi). Another third were terribly uncoordinated (Montross). Leonard is neither of those. He is raw though. When I see that list it gives me hope.

 

[magnifier661]

And I am heavily sedated. Maybe I am smarter this way?

LOL!

 

[Rastapopoulos]

OK, MM--here's something you're going to love. This is the list of 7-footers who played at least 1000 minutes in their rookie years and put up a PER of less than 13. Not a whole lot of world-beaters here. Maybe Leonard can be another Chris Kaman...?

I'd settle for Tyson Chandler or Mark Eaton, but somehow I doubt it, as their problem was scoring.

Two reasons we need a center:
1. We had probably the worst differential in the league between our points in the paint and the opponents'.
2. With a team as universally bad on D as ours, the easiest first step is the most important defensive player, which is the center.

 

[magnifier661]

Chandler and Eaton ended up pretty good. I'm not sure you can really compare everyone on that list. A third of those guys were bad because they had no motivation (Kandi). Another third were terribly uncoordinated (Montross). Leonard is neither of those. He is raw though. When I see that list it gives me hope.

I actually think Bol was pretty good too. Not much of an offensive game, but he was definitely a rim protector. Shawn Bradley was bust material, but at the right price would be good.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I'd settle for Tyson Chandler or Mark Eaton, but somehow I doubt it, as their problem was scoring.

I actually think Bol was pretty good too. Not much of an offensive game, but he was definitely a rim protector. Shawn Bradley was bust material, but at the right price would be good.

The reason I mentioned Kaman as the best possible outcome is that all these other guys you mentioned were over-sized shot-blockers--except Chandler, who was just really, REALLY raw. Re-sorting the list by rookie-year block percentage, Bol, Eaton, and Bradley are at the top. Leonard's 2.4 is the 2nd worst of the group.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

The reason I mentioned Kaman as the best possible outcome is that all these other guys you mentioned were over-sized shot-blockers--except Chandler, who was just really, REALLY raw. Re-sorting the list by rookie-year block percentage, Bol, Eaton, and Bradley are at the top. Leonard's 2.4 is the 2nd worst of the group.

You're just DETERMINED to stamp out all hope, aren't you?

Interestingly, Leonard has the best TS% of the group.

 

[magnifier661]

The reason I mentioned Kaman as the best possible outcome is that all these other guys you mentioned were over-sized shot-blockers--except Chandler, who was just really, REALLY raw. Re-sorting the list by rookie-year block percentage, Bol, Eaton, and Bradley are at the top. Leonard's 2.4 is the 2nd worst of the group.

That is depressing to me. I hope Leonard breaks out next season and plays much better basketball. He's definitely having all the necessary physical tools to do it. He just needs to work in and mental growth to get there.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

You're just DETERMINED to stamp out all hope, aren't you?

Interestingly, Leonard has the best TS% of the group.

Not really. I was looking for a good example of a decent center who started poorly to supersede Mags' terrible one, and this just happens to be what I found.

Also noticed that Leonard had the lowest TOV% of the bunch, the best ORtg, best ORtg/Drtg differential, and the second highest WS/48. Perhaps that means that even though he didn't set the world on fire statistically, he still had a relatively positive impact on the team.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Chandler and Eaton ended up pretty good. I'm not sure you can really compare everyone on that list. A third of those guys were bad because they had no motivation (Kandi). Another third were terribly uncoordinated (Montross). Leonard is neither of those. He is raw though. When I see that list it gives me hope.

RPG
343 / 8.9 per 36
462 / 10.9 per 36
255 / 7.6 per 36

BPG
93 / 2.4 per 36
275 / 6.5 per 36
38 / 1.1 per 36

Yes, Leonard is EXACTLY like Chandler and Eaton

 

[magnifier661]

RPG
343 / 8.9 per 36
462 / 10.9 per 36
255 / 7.6 per 36

BPG
93 / 2.4 per 36
275 / 6.5 per 36
38 / 1.1 per 36

Yes, Leonard is EXACTLY like Chandler and Eaton

That's my biggest beef with Leonard. He looks soooooooooo lost on the defensive end. I just don't want to bank on that being the biggest area he improves on this summer. I suspect he will try and work more on the pick and pop or roll. Mainly offensive work. I don't like that because I am such a fan of defense, especially from a big man.

 

[HomerLovesKoolAid]

It certainly would be great to add another big man, especially a veteran help defender, but I think the bodies are in place right now for 'improved inside defensive presence'.

What is needed is knowledge and EFFORT.

 

[Nate4Prez]

OK, MM--here's something you're going to love. This is the list of 7-footers who played at least 1000 minutes in their rookie years and put up a PER of less than 13. Not a whole lot of world-beaters here. Maybe Leonard can be another Chris Kaman...?

Pretty interesting list, thank you so much for posting. A couple things that jump out to me are the low number of blocks for Leonard, but the highest field goal percentage and free throw percentage. I'm not against drafting a center, I'm in the camp of trade or BPA, but I'm not ready to give up on this kid.

 

[Reep]

Taking out Eaton (who just lived in the post), and adding points:

RPG
343 / 8.9 per 36
255 / 7.6 per 36

BPG
93 / 2.4 per 36
38 / 1.1 per 36

points/36
TC: 7.3
ML: 7.6

Chandler added about a half a block per game at 36 min, but it should be noted that he was only good for 1+ his entire career. So, the extrapolation to 2.4 for him never materialized. I would call that pretty close. And, it wasn't until Chandler's 6th season that he cracked 10 reb/game. Given how raw they both were I think the numbers are relatively close.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Well, without that big style of a true center, Indy is probably swept if they try to matchup with Miami. Similar to OKC.

A 36 MPG C isn't a priority, but a solid defensive big who could give us 26-28 a game is.

This is an excellent point.

 

[STOMP]

OK this is all true, but he is no Shaq when it comes to brut force. And he never was a great leaper. My point was he is not a physical specimen like we often get caught up on when we evaluate which centers we want.

okay I guess. He was measured 6'11 barefoot and 250+ lbs at his predraft (which is solid size for a 5) and a glance lets you know he's got a huge wingspan. As a kid he was the best distance swimmer in the world in his age bracket so you know he's got a tremendous motor. He's obviously extremely coordinated for a Big... don't all of these things fall under physical ability?

He is great because he is talented, smart and well coached. I would argue that if he was drafted by the "wrong team" his defensive talents may never have been developed as much they were. Their team D fits his talents perfectly.

again, Pop wasn't coaching him when he was dominating the ACC as a 17 year old. I can recall the comparisons to defensive greats Walton and Russell prior to the start of his professional career. He didn't really blossom his rookie year so much as continue doing what everyone suspected he'd do. Following both his Soph and Jr years Golden St and Phili were openly begging him to declare. I suspect if he had come out following his 2nd year at Wake, Rick Adelman would still be coaching by the Bay & receiving similar accolades for his defensive coaching prowess as Pop is now.

STOMP

 

[Pinwheel1]

okay I guess. He was measured 6'11 barefoot and 250+ lbs at his predraft (which is solid size for a 5) and a glance lets you know he's got a huge wingspan. As a kid he was the best distance swimmer in the world in his age bracket so you know he's got a tremendous motor. He's obviously extremely coordinated for a Big... don't all of these things fall under physical ability?



again, Pop wasn't coaching him when he was dominating the ACC as a 17 year old. I can recall the comparisons to defensive greats Walton and Russell prior to the start of his professional career. He didn't really blossom his rookie year so much as continue doing what everyone suspected he'd do. Following both his Soph and Jr years Golden St and Phili were openly begging him to declare. I suspect if he had come out following his 2nd year at Wake, Rick Adelman would still be coaching by the Bay & receiving similar accolades for his defensive coaching prowess as Pop is now.

STOMP

Is he as athletic as he used to be?
No one is after that many years in the league
He has lost a step. Yet SA is still really
Good on D. My point is it is more than
Just Duncan that makes them a good defensive
team.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Here's another list: the rookie years of all players 6'11" or over who were 20 or younger, ranked by PER. (Leonard is 22nd, just above Spencer Hawes and Robin Lopez. Check out who's at 34...)

I'm actually not a Leonard fan at all, so I'm not sure what I'm doing this for...

 

[Mediocre Man]

Here's another list: the rookie years of all players 6'11" or over who were 20 or younger, ranked by PER. (Leonard is 22nd, just above Spencer Hawes and Robin Lopez. Check out who's at 34...)

I'm actually not a Leonard fan at all, so I'm not sure what I'm doing this for...

I don't think that list is Pro Leonard at all. Not really Anti Leonard either though

 

[MarAzul]

Mark gasol was pretty raw for his first 3 years. He's a pretty beastly center now!

Very true. I would credit MG's coach for part of his progress as a center.
Our current project center while showing a ton of talent, seems to have made progress like he doesn't have a coach. The project isn't advancing like it should.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Very true. I would credit MG's coach for part of his progress as a center.
Our current project center while showing a ton of talent, seems to have made progress like he doesn't have a coach. The project isn't advancing like it should.

Are you drunk? It's not at all very true

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Maybe we should be thinking of Leonard as less Mark Eaton and more Dirk Nowitzki...

 

[MarAzul]

Are you drunk? It's not at all very true

I see you identify with the appropriate motto.

 

[HailBlazers]

Maybe we should be thinking of Leonard as less Mark Eaton and more Dirk Nowitzki...

I like the Tyson Chandler with a jump shot comparison, down the road of course.

 

[Reep]

Maybe we should be thinking of Leonard as less Mark Eaton and more Dirk Nowitzki...[/URL]

Yeah, Meyers has a much better shooting percentage than Dirk did--even 3pt percent.

All joking aside, I wonder what would happen if the team focused on Leonard's strengths rather than his weaknesses. If they really worked on him shooting from all angles and told him not to worry about defense. I don't think it would help the team, but I bet he could put up decent offensive numbers.

 

[DaLincolnJones]

Yeah, Meyers has a much better shooting percentage than Dirk did--even 3pt percent.

All joking aside, I wonder what would happen if the team focused on Leonard's strengths rather than his weaknesses. If they really worked on him shooting from all angles and told him not to worry about defense. I don't think it would help the team, but I bet he could put up decent offensive numbers.

that is how Dirk started his career..

 

[oldmangrouch]

I like the Tyson Chandler with a jump shot comparison, down the road of course.

...down the road, over the bridge, through the trees, across 2 or 3 mountain ranges, and down a rabbit hole.

 

[STOMP]

Is he as athletic as he used to be?
No one is after that many years in the league
He has lost a step. Yet SA is still really
Good on D. My point is it is more than
Just Duncan that makes them a good defensive
team.

and my point is TD's defensive abilities are largely what makes Pop's schemes effective. He sure didn't look like he's lost much athleticism last night as he rolled to 20 Pnts, 14 Rbs, 4 Assts, 3 Blks & a W.

For his career he's got a PER of 24.7... this season it was 24.4. On a straight stats analysis of the league in the past year I do for my fantasy league, I had him rated #11 overall and thats despite averaging fewer minutes per game (30.1) then anyone in the top 40. Older players who've avoided major joint injuries don't so much lose a step as they lose the ability to bounce back quickly from the nightly bumps/bruises and pounding of the game. Pretty clearly though, Tim is still elite

STOMP

 

[Pinwheel1]

and my point is TD's defensive abilities are largely what makes Pop's schemes effective. He sure didn't look like he's lost much athleticism last night as he rolled to 20 Pnts, 14 Rbs, 4 Assts, 3 Blks & a W.

For his career he's got a PER of 24.7... this season it was 24.4. On a straight stats analysis of the league in the past year I do for my fantasy league, I had him rated #11 overall and thats despite averaging fewer minutes per game (30.1) then anyone in the top 40. Older players who've avoided major joint injuries don't so much lose a step as they lose the ability to bounce back quickly from the nightly bumps/bruises and pounding of the game. Pretty clearly though, Tim is still elite

STOMP

Yes Tim is an Elite basketball player. No doubt.

But there is no way he is as athletic as he was 10-12 years ago. I watched him from court side seats in 1999 when he went up against Sabonis and I watched him up close this year against the Clippers and there is no way you can convince me he has not lost a step. Although he is still an excellent player.

But this is what I can't get past, when I see SA play without Tim Duncan they still play excellent defense. I watched SA crush the Clippers in LA in February and Tim played 16 minutes. No matter who was playing center, Splitter or Diaw, the Spurs defensive scheme worked to perfection. This was not the same Boris Diaw I saw in Phoenix.

So yes I agree that Tim Duncan is a special player and would have been with or without Pop, but having arguably the best coach/scheme in basketball over his career has certainly been a huge factor as well. I am not saying SA would have been as good without Tim (That would be stupid) but my overall point in my original post in this thread, was yes we need a center, but getting one is not going to automatically make us a better defensive team. Because allowing guard penetration the way we have, will only get our new center a ton fouls and a quick trip to the bench. Our D starts from the coaches, then the guards/wings, then the guy guarding the rim. We need a lot of work to be a good defensive team. Not just a center.