Will Miles play tonight? (Merged)

[DaRizzle]

It was a real pleasure watching Miles do what he did against Cleveland. Imagine if he had two good knees! OMG, the guy is done! What an absolute joy to see this happen.

lol...im checking out this thread after a Lakers victory and this is what a see...oh BH...youre all good in my book but this one is pretty hard to defend

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

It was a real pleasure watching Miles do what he did against Cleveland. Imagine if he had two good knees! OMG, the guy is done! What an absolute joy to see this happen.

 

[e_blazer]

No, that's not the issue. Lots of players can't hold up to the rigors of playing an NBA schedule. Tracy McGrady can't. Yao Ming doesn't seem able to. Shaq often couldn't. That isn't what determines being a capable of having an NBA career. The question is whether Miles is able to play at a high enough level often enough to be worth a roster spot. Sure, we can wait and see, but Miles playing well now (in addition to doctors' reports from other teams this season) is pretty strong evidence that he is still capable of continuing his NBA career.

The problem, as I see it, is that the CBA sets up a process that asks doctors to make their best medical determination as to whether an injury is career-ending and yet uses a much lesser practical test to overcome an unfavorable medical opinion. The judgment of the doctors appointed to review Darius' case was that his knee injury was so severe that he wouldn't be able to continue his basketball career without severe medical repercussions. But the CBA says that if Darius can play in 10 NBA games for as little as one second each, then the doctor's opinion is thrown out the window. I suspect that if the league-appointed doctor had been asked if Darius would be able to make cameo appearances in 10 games in one season, rather than giving his honest opinion as to whether it is medically wise or even practicable for him to play anywhere close to a full NBA schedule, he would have said yes. By that standard, any former NBA player with a pulse could come out of retirement.

I know that it's not going to help the Blazers, but the current rule needs revisiting. As it is, a team can be harmed significantly for trying to do what management believes is in the player's best longterm health interests.

 

[Minstrel]

The problem, as I see it, is that the CBA sets up a process that asks doctors to make their best medical determination as to whether an injury is career-ending and yet uses a much lesser practical test to overcome an unfavorable medical opinion. The judgment of the doctors appointed to review Darius' case was that his knee injury was so severe that he wouldn't be able to continue his basketball career without severe medical repercussions. But the CBA says that if Darius can play in 10 NBA games for as little as one second each, then the doctor's opinion is thrown out the window. I suspect that if the league-appointed doctor had been asked if Darius would be able to make cameo appearances in 10 games in one season, rather than giving his honest opinion as to whether it is medically wise or even practicable for him to play anywhere close to a full NBA schedule, he would have said yes. By that standard, any former NBA player with a pulse could come out of retirement.

I know that it's not going to help the Blazers, but the current rule needs revisiting. As it is, a team can be harmed significantly for trying to do what management believes is in the player's best longterm health interests.

I agree, basically. I think the system as set up is a bit silly. To steal a point from Boob-No-More, it should be a minutes-based thing, something along the lines of 200 or 300 minutes. To either show he can play a fair number of minutes over a short period of time or lesser minutes over a longer period of time. It shouldn't just be "appearances." That's completely irrelevant to medically able to play.

My original post in this thread was simply about being glad that it seems (on early returns) that Miles can legitimately play basketball. He's not going out there as a farce. But I still think the system should be overhauled.

 

[Денг Гордон]

I agree, basically. I think the system as set up is a bit silly. To steal a point from Boob-No-More, it should be a minutes-based thing, something along the lines of 200 or 300 minutes. To either show he can play a fair number of minutes over a short period of time or lesser minutes over a longer period of time. It shouldn't just be "appearances." That's completely irrelevant to medically able to play.

My original post in this thread was simply about being glad that it seems (on early returns) that Miles can legitimately play basketball. He's not going out there as a farce. But I still think the system should be overhauled.

Minutes isn't that good, because there are scrubs.

Maybe something like apperances of 2 minutes or more. You're going to have to go up and down the court a few times in 2 minutes.

 

[Minstrel]

Minutes isn't that good, because there are scrubs.

Scrubs play well over 200-300 minutes in a season.

 

[e_blazer]

If the NBA is really interested in the health of its players, it seems to me that once a player has been deemed by a league-appointed physician to not be fit to continue his NBA career then that player should have to ask for a new evaluation and receive a favorable health clearance before being allowed to sign to play with any team. Additionally, I think that if cleared to resume his career, the team that originally held his contract should be given the first opportunity to re-sign the player for the life of his original contract. As it is, the team gets left holding the bag even if its intentions are purely legitimate.

 

[Cake]

Miles will play more than Jerryd Bayless does this season.

And better probably.

Evidently Miles isn't that hurt. What have I been saying for the last 1-2 years?

 

[Cake]

If the NBA is really interested in the health of its players, it seems to me that once a player has been deemed by a league-appointed physician to not be fit to continue his NBA career then that player should have to ask for a new evaluation and receive a favorable health clearance before being allowed to sign to play with any team. Additionally, I think that if cleared to resume his career, the team that originally held his contract should be given the first opportunity to re-sign the player for the life of his original contract. As it is, the team gets left holding the bag even if its intentions are purely legitimate.

Sour grapes.

Miles wasn't that hurt. ONE doctor's opinion doesn't mean shit. Miles is evidently healthy enough to play in the NBA, as I've been saying for the last couple years.

 

[Ed O]

Sour grapes.

Miles wasn't that hurt. ONE doctor's opinion doesn't mean shit. Miles is evidently healthy enough to play in the NBA, as I've been saying for the last couple years.

Not to mention: the medical retirement is NOT for the protection of the players. It is NOT to protect their health.

Medical retirement is for the TEAMS. It is to allow teams to recover money off the cap in certain circumstances. The doctors are NOT telling the player that he should hang it up... they are telling the NBA that it's OK to (barring a comeback as articulated in the CBA) give the team credit on the cap.

Ed o.

 

[MrJayremmie]

Miles is good enough to play. This proved it. He may not be near normal, or ever be, but he isn't fucked up enough to be forced into medical retirement.

Good luck D-Miles.

 

[Stevenson]

The Blazers have no arguement. They are soooooooooo on the wrong side legally...

Are you a lawyer? I venture to say not. I am, and to me, they are clearly in the right, legally.

So, just how is it they are "soooooooo on the wrong side legally"? (a sentence, btw, which proves you know little about the law.)

 

[Rastapopoulos]

The problem, as I see it, is that the CBA sets up a process that asks doctors to make their best medical determination as to whether an injury is career-ending and yet uses a much lesser practical test to overcome an unfavorable medical opinion. The judgment of the doctors appointed to review Darius' case was that his knee injury was so severe that he wouldn't be able to continue his basketball career without severe medical repercussions. But the CBA says that if Darius can play in 10 NBA games for as little as one second each, then the doctor's opinion is thrown out the window. I suspect that if the league-appointed doctor had been asked if Darius would be able to make cameo appearances in 10 games in one season, rather than giving his honest opinion as to whether it is medically wise or even practicable for him to play anywhere close to a full NBA schedule, he would have said yes. By that standard, any former NBA player with a pulse could come out of retirement.

I know that it's not going to help the Blazers, but the current rule needs revisiting. As it is, a team can be harmed significantly for trying to do what management believes is in the player's best longterm health interests.

This is spot on. It's a stupid combination. Either (a) trust the doctors entirely and dump the ten game rule (which is just an open invitation to bad blood. I mean everyone everyone predicted the minute this decision was made that some team could purposely screw the Blazers. This is the point at which the League should have reconsidered their rules) or (b) just get rid of the medical rule and have teams have to take the cap hit no matter what.

You could beef up option (a) by having a panel of doctors make the decision on whether or not an injury is career-ending. But anyway, I think it's quite legitimate for the following combination of things to happen:

1. A player gets declared to have a career-ending injury and the team gets cap relief.
2. That player is signed by and plays for another team (without any effect on the previous decision or cap relief for the original team).

Just because a player and another team both want him to play doesn't mean he doesn't have an injury that his original team (on the advice of doctors) could legitimately decide is one that means he medically shouldn't play for them.

This way, everybody wins. The original team gets cap space and can avoid risking a player's health on their watch, while at the same time the player has the all-American freedom to idiotically risk his future health to grasp at the shreds of a career. And his new team has the right to exploit that willingness to take that risk. What could be more American?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Because it was a reasonable belief at the time, especially with an NBA-appointed doctor making the diagnosis. If I discovered that the Blazers didn't really have any reason to believe that this injury could be career-ending, I would feel negatively toward the franchise.

But what about the Blazers trying to claim Miles off waivers? Doesn't look like you can make the same mental maneuver to take you to a happy place on that one.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

This is spot on. It's a stupid combination. Either (a) trust the doctors entirely and dump the ten game rule (which is just an open invitation to bad blood. I mean everyone everyone predicted the minute this decision was made that some team could purposely screw the Blazers. This is the point at which the League should have reconsidered their rules) or (b) just get rid of the medical rule and have teams have to take the cap hit no matter what.

You could beef up option (a) by having a panel of doctors make the decision on whether or not an injury is career-ending. But anyway, I think it's quite legitimate for the following combination of things to happen:

1. A player gets declared to have a career-ending injury and the team gets cap relief.
2. That player is signed by and plays for another team (without any effect on the previous decision or cap relief for the original team).

Just because a player and another team both want him to play doesn't mean he doesn't have an injury that his original team (on the advice of doctors) could legitimately decide is one that means he medically shouldn't play for them.

This way, everybody wins. The original team gets cap space and can avoid risking a player's health on their watch, while at the same time the player has the all-American freedom to idiotically risk his future health to grasp at the shreds of a career. And his new team has the right to exploit that willingness to take that risk. What could be more American?

I like the idea in principle, but I could see this being abused. If a player isn't happy on a team and the team isn't happy about the players contract . . . find a doctor to declare that he has a career ending injury. Team gets him of the salary cap, player gets to pick a team he want to play for whlie collecting insurnce money from old team. Everyone wins (but the insurance co)

But is this a way to circumvent the salary cap?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I like the idea in principle, but I could see this being abused. If a player isn't happy on a team and the team isn't happy about the players contract . . . find a doctor to declare that he has a career ending injury. Team gets him of the salary cap, player gets to pick a team he want to play for whlie collecting insurnce money from old team. Everyone wins (but the insurance co)
But is this a way to circumvent the salary cap?

It's only cheating if the player isn't seriously injured. So have a panel of doctors (hand-picked by the league, including the insurance company's own doctor) make the decision. If they can't decide, have an actual judge decide on the basis of their testimony.

 

[BrianFromWA]

And better probably.

Evidently Miles isn't that hurt. What have I been saying for the last 1-2 years?

If you've been saying for 2 years that Miles isn't hurt, I'm probably not going to respect your opinion on him anyway.

google "darius miles fat picture". That was from last Opening night.

He had a MF surgery in Nov 2006. So in Jan 2007 he "wasn't that hurt"? And able, if the meanie Blazers had let him, to play "better, probably" than Bayless?

 

[maxiep]

Good for Miles. Now I feel good about this whole thing, finally. There's no gamesmanship going on, Miles can legitimately play, so Portland is legitimately losing the cap space.

The issue isn't whether or not Miles can play. The issue is whether or not he risks long term damage by playing on his knees.

Cat Mobley can play. Of course, he also risks dropping dead of heart failure, so it behooves him not to do so.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

It's only cheating if the player isn't seriously injured. So have a panel of doctors (hand-picked by the league, including the insurance company's own doctor) make the decision. If they can't decide, have an actual judge decide on the basis of their testimony.

If you have a panel of doctors unable to agree, I don't think it's best to then let a judge (with a non-medical background) decide.

Bottom line is doctors frequently disagree about a diagnosis (like in the Miles case). If the NBA creates a rule that makes it advantageous for all parties to have someone be declared medically retired . . . and then that player can come back and play with no consequences to anybody. I think it will be a rule that will try to be abused (we are talking cap flexibility . . . big deal for all teams)

 

[PapaG]

But what about the Blazers trying to claim Miles off waivers? Doesn't look like you can make the same mental maneuver to take you to a happy place on that one.

I think that's the best move they have made in this entire process and could be the one that lets them win a legal case. Memphis deemed Darius Miles as disposable, no other team wanted him, and by rule, the Blazers should have been able to make a claim. Darius gets an NBA contract guaranteed, no other teams are hurt by this since no other team claimed him, and life goes on as Darius pouts.

Now, if your position is that the only reason Memphis waived him was to bring him back w/out guaranteeing him, the "intent" email comes into play and would be a part of any case brought against either the Grizz or the league.

Seems cut and dry to me. Business as usual...

 

[PapaG]

If you have a panel of doctors unable to agree, I don't think it's best to then let a judge (with a non-medical background) decide.

Bottom line is doctors frequently disagree about a diagnosis (like in the Miles case). If the NBA creates a rule that makes it advantageous for all parties to have someone be declared medically retired . . . and then that player can come back and play with no consequences to anybody. I think it will be a rule that will try to be abused (we are talking cap flexibility . . . big deal for all teams)

Which doctors disagreed with the Miles diagnosis?

 

[PapaG]

The issue isn't whether or not Miles can play. The issue is whether or not he risks long term damage by playing on his knees.

Cat Mobley can play. Of course, he also risks dropping dead of heart failure, so it behooves him not to do so.

The other big issue is whether or not Portland had a right to claim him off of waivers after no other team wanted to guarantee him. I say it's at least pursuing in the legal arena by Paul Allen.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Which doctors disagreed with the Miles diagnosis?

Boston and Memphis both had Miles medically examined and they both "independently" cleared miles to play.

 

[maxiep]

You do realize that anyone can post on any of the message boards at S2? Topics regarding the Blazers are posted in the Blazers forum, to post on a topic of interest such as this, the threads are likely to be in the Blazers forum.

There is no rule on S2 about having to be blindly pro-team of whatever team forum you're posting in on S2.

Yeah, but there are forum mores. And one of them is not to troll, as it says more about you than it does about others. However, I applaud your willingness to demonstrate what an ass you are for the entire forum to see.

 

[maxiep]

Boston and Memphis both had Miles medically examined and they both "independently" cleared miles to play.

Miles has always been cleared to play. A bone-on-bone injury doesn't manifest itself by not being able to play. It manifests itself by the development of Osgood-Schlatters, fluid filling the joints, arthritis and finally knee replacement.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Miles has always been cleared to play. A bone-on-bone injury doesn't manifest itself by not being able to play. It manifests itself by the development of Osgood-Schlatters, fluid filling the joints, arthritis and finally knee replacement.

Exactly . . . Miles has always been cleared to play. All that has been established is if Miles retires, then the Blazers qualify for the medical retirement clause/rule that allows the Blazers to remove Miles salry off their cap.

But Miles did not retire, he decided to play (righ or wrong), so the medical retirement rule doesn't apply.

Basically Blazers cut Miles, hoped to utilize the medical retirement rule becuase of Darius' injury, but becuase Darius played, they don't get to utilize the medical retirement rule. Sucks . . . but it is what it is.

 

[PapaG]

Exactly . . . Miles has always been cleared to play. All that has been established is if Miles retires, then the Blazers qualify for the medical retirement clause/rule that allows the Blazers to remove Miles salry off their cap.

But Miles did not retire, he decided to play (righ or wrong), so the medical retirement rule doesn't apply.

Basically Blazers cut Miles, hoped to utilize the medical retirement rule becuase of Darius' injury, but becuase Darius played, they don't get to utilize the medical retirement rule. Sucks . . . but it is what it is.

Which is where the waiver denial will come back and bite the NBA in the ass.

If Miles has healed or is better, Portland according to the CBA is not denied a right to claim him or even try to sign him independently.

 

[DaRizzle]

Exactly . . . Miles has always been cleared to play. All that has been established is if Miles retires, then the Blazers qualify for the medical retirement clause/rule that allows the Blazers to remove Miles salry off their cap.

But Miles did not retire, he decided to play (righ or wrong), so the medical retirement rule doesn't apply.

Basically Blazers cut Miles, hoped to utilize the medical retirement rule becuase of Darius' injury, but becuase Darius played, they don't get to utilize the medical retirement rule. Sucks . . . but it is what it is.

Spaghetti Monster bless you Go Time!

So pretty much you are saying it sucks, but POR just has to bite the bullet and accept the situation that Miles will be put on the books, rightly so...right?

 

[e_blazer]

Exactly . . . Miles has always been cleared to play. All that has been established is if Miles retires, then the Blazers qualify for the medical retirement clause/rule that allows the Blazers to remove Miles salry off their cap.

But Miles did not retire, he decided to play (righ or wrong), so the medical retirement rule doesn't apply.

Basically Blazers cut Miles, hoped to utilize the medical retirement rule becuase of Darius' injury, but becuase Darius played, they don't get to utilize the medical retirement rule. Sucks . . . but it is what it is.

I don't fault Darius for wanting to play if he is physically capable of it. It's his body and he's willing to risk knee replacement surgery in order to play a few more seasons, so be it. The Blazers knew the financial risk going into the retirement exemption process and Larry Miller has said the team is fine with the hit as long as the team signing Darius is legitimately going about using him for the purpose of winning games.

The problem, as we all know by now, is that teams can sign him more for the purpose of damaging the Blazers than for what Darius can contribute on the court over the rest of the season. Perhaps the Grizzlies are legitimately planning on playing him on a series of 10-day contracts until they can find out whether his knee will in fact hold up. On the other hand, they may really like the idea of putting the Blazers in a bind and have no interest in Darius after he plays one more game.

My question is, if the Blazers were told by the league that they wouldn't be allowed to claim Darius off of waivers because it would circumvent the intent of the CBA, then why isn't it also circumvention of the medical retirement section of the CBA for a team to use this 10 game cameo appearance nonsense as a means of screwing another team?

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Spaghetti Monster bless you Go Time!

So pretty much you are saying it sucks, but POR just has to bite the bullet and accept the situation that Miles will be put on the books, rightly so...right?

Yep, rightly so.

I think the rule should be reviewed and maybe revised because we now see it could lead to situations where teams sign players not to improve thier team but to mess with another team (the CBA is up for negotiations in two years).

But there hasn't been a lot of abuse or controversy with this rule to date and I don't think the Blazers created a lot of sympathy around the league. So maybe the league waits to see if another similar situation occurs before decideing to mess with it (got to pick your battles)

But yes , the Blazers were hoping they would benefit from the rule, but they didn't . . . I still think the Blazers would handle it the same way if they had to do it over (except for the eamil part )